You know, maybe Israel shouldn’t be oppressing Palestinians. But then again, saying anything against Israel is a hate crime allegedly.
Antizionism is not inherently antisemitism but is commonly co-opted to peddle antisemitism especially online. No one worth your time outside of zionist nationalist circles are saying that speaking out against Israel is a hate crime, and to say such feels very disingenuous. Most American Jews, especially young American Jews, are actively opposed to the Israeli government and it’s war crimes and actively discuss this stuff. Saying this however only serves to feel like a minimization of very real antisemitism and makes Jews feel unsafe and alienated away from discussing this with you even as a potential ally.
No one worth your time outside of zionist nationalist circles are saying that speaking out against Israel is a hate crime, and to say such feels very disingenuous.
There is literally someone IN THIS THREAD doing exactly that. You suggesting this tactic isn’t commonplace is what I personally find to be disingenuous.
It’s not my job to protect the feelings or emotions of other adult human beings. Either you are willing to stand on your positions, and justify them or you are not. Society doesn’t owe blanket protections over all ideas coming from marginalized or minority groups without first evaluating their context or their substance.
Society doesn’t owe blanket protections over all ideas coming from marginalized or minority groups without first evaluating the context or the substance.
I wonder if you’d say the same for other marginalized groups and have this big of a questioning mentality if they weren’t Jews when they ask others to be mindful of times that might be used to perpetuate harm against them.
You can play the victim all you want, but my point still stands. A person’s religion, nationality, or any other form of identity has no bearing on either the value or the quality of their ideas.
Ideas must stand on their own merits, and if they do not bear up to scrutiny then they should be disregarded even if that means offending the person who produced them.
“Marginalized”
White Jews are white, with all the privileges that entails.
That privilege is conditional and nuanced, Judaism is an ethnoreligion. They experience antisemitism very much so.
The white ones experience white privilege. The antisemitism is reserved for Jews from Asia and Africa.
What was the holocaust then?
There is nuance here that to ignore completely is not only contributing to antisemitism but is just factually incorrect. That’s not how antisemitism works. White passing Jews are still Jewish, and still experience antisemitism. To say they don’t is antisemitic.
And you know that… how exactly?
Tell that to the Jews at the Pittsburgh synagogue.
What, exactly, did you think was the argument of the link?
Especially if you’re running for office… or prime minister.
Not all 200 of the Israeli civilians who died are responsible for actions of the IDF.
And not all of the thousands killed or wounded in Palestine were affiliated with Hamas in any way. What’s your point?
Agreed, and the IDF is completely in the wrong for that too!
You ignored the question. What was your point?
Why is it when talking about Israeli military or political action it’s necessary to add the word government? With any other country you can say, as an example, “Russia shouldn’t be invading Ukraine”, but with Israel it seems necessary to add something like “I’m talking about the government, not the people.”
On the other side of things, it seems Hamas is interchangable with Palestine, which is interchangable with the Palestinian people, and none of these get folks pointing out the distinction.
With any other country you can say, as an example, “Russia shouldn’t be invading Ukraine”
On the contrary. We can name “the Putin regime” rather than saying “Russia”.
Tyrannies typically oppress their own people first.
The country first oppressed by the Nazis was not Poland or France or Czechoslovakia; it was Germany. The people first oppressed by Hitler were Germans. Including German Jews; but only a Nazi says German Jews aren’t real Germans. But also German transgender people, German disabled people, German socialists, German Christians who refused to put Hitler before Jesus; and eventually any German who wouldn’t kiss Hitler’s ass.
Who is oppressed by the Putin regime? Mostly Russians.
Why is it when talking about Israeli military or political action it’s necessary to add the word government?
I can’t speak for others, but I don’t blame random Russians, I blame the Russian government- and I talk about the Russian government.
On the other side of things, it seems Hamas is interchangable with Palestine, which is interchangable with the Palestinian people, and none of these get folks pointing out the distinction.
Again not to me.
How dare you point out this blatant, objective hypocrisy!!! I’m triggered by your rationality and sincerity. You must be a racist, bigot, anti-semite, nazi, fascist, alt-right, 4chan loving, basement dweller.
No one said that. Usually those supporting Palestine unilaterally are more radically in the SJW space.
Who the fuck said I unilaterally supported anybody? I don’t unilaterally or unequivocally support anything. The devil is always in the details.
Its not a back and white issue. Sure Israel is clearly an oppressor but Hamas, Hezbollah etc, are a bunch of violent clowns who do evil ass things like presently kidnapping families. Its not a true good guy/bad guy situation.
It’s honestly concerning how so few people understand the world isn’t filled with good guys and bad guys. The collective conscience is so naive and ignorant.
Entirely true
Then they should do what for independence? There can be no peace with oppressors. If you can’t see this, you are blind. Israel has committed violent atrocities against the palestinians for decades. The excesses of the Fundamentalist groups is merely a scratch in comparison.
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Implying that’s a bad thing?
Most normal people think radical antisemitic groups are bad yes
Being anti-Isreal isn’t the same as being antisemitic
But they are also antisemitic. Did you read the article the ADL has on them?
I did, they are opposed to zionism, which the ADL says could spread to antisemitism. I don’t see any point where they make an antisemitic argument directly, that comes from people who intrinsically link zionism and Isreal to being Jewish.
From the same page:
In addition to JVP’s promotion of messaging that descends into the antisemitic vilification of “Zionists,” the group has expressed support for violence and, occasionally, classic antisemitic tropes. Some JVP members, leaders and chapters propagate rhetoric or sponsor events where participants express support for violence or terror against Israelis and vilify Zionist Jews. In a few instances, they have espoused blatant antisemitic tropes, including modern manifestations of the blood libel and allegations of Jewish dual loyalty to the countries in which they live
I guess you didn’t read it very closely?
It then lists three examples. One of Israeli soldiers drinking the blood of the dead, one of Netanyahu eating children, and someone saying that a quote is built on the pretense of ethnic cleansing. The first two don’t specifically say anything about the blood libel, and are more provocative imagery that isn’t unusal for representation of oppression. Especially when you’re talking about oppression from a group that routinely kills children. The dual loyalty claim is also spurious. You could say something similar about manifest destiny and American exceptionalism as a criticism to the people who espouse those beliefs without saying those things about Americans broadly.
The ADL is a propaganda arm for Israel. You can trust their claims.
Jews saying what is or isn’t antisemitism is propaganda? Nice propaganda yourself.
And there is a loop
Nearly 60% of Jews in the US are opposed to the oppression of Palestinians by the state of Israel. Does their anti-zionist position make them antisemitic? Judaism and the people that follow the religion are fine. The state of Israel is fascist. There is no contradiction in those statements.
Ah yes, but citing the ADL which is literally a propaganda arm for the Israeli apartheid state. You do realize it is possible to call out the hypocrisy, violence, and antagonism of Zionist ideology without being anti-semitic correct?
Elon Musk also think the ADL is propaganda. It must make you sleep well at night to know you’re in such good company.
While it is possible, you are definitely not doing it.
This kind of shit is another reason why I left Reddit.
It just turned into an organized onslaught of disingenuous hacks like you who want to conflate any kind of criticism of Israel or Zionism with anti-semitism, cry foul, and then brigade people for not just walking lock step with your crypto-fascist ideology that you have so conveniently rebranded into permanent victimization.
Go check my post history, I’m not some Elon Musk Stan. Your attempts at conflation won’t work with me chief. I don’t give a fuck what Elon Musk thinks about the ADL. I know PR whitewashed rhetoric and state propaganda when I see it for myself thank you.
Now kindly fuck back off to whatever hole you crawled out from.
Cute you think Reddit was the problem. No matter where you go on social media. Too bad you’re too far up your own ass to know that.
Oh my word, a pro-Reddit Chad in the wilds of Lemmy. I’ll have to mark this on my calendar 😂
You should definitely go back to Reddit; this sort of content fits in precisely there.
You didn’t criticize Israel or Zionism. You are specifically choosing to believe a source that Jews have determined to be radically antisemitic — the source I linked provides instances of this organization sharing the blood libel and Jewish dual citizenry tropes. Further you are telling those Jews they’re liars because you don’t like the country they’re from.
The ADL is only a bad source if you’re so far down the antisemitic rabbit hole that you literally believe Jews can’t talk about what hatred towards them looks like. Since you are clearly there, I honestly pity you. I hope you wake up one day and give up your bigotry.
Oh no. Not boycotting Israel :(
Awesome!
