Is it legal in the US to shoot people who are trying to kidnap you?
I mean, anyone can go around claiming to be law enforcement or ICE or whatever, but with no badge or ID, how are people supposed to know that this isn’t a gang trying to trafic them?
In vast majority of states there is a stand-your-ground law in place, which means you’re explicitly allowed to use deadly force if you reasonably believe that you’re defending yourself from a violent crime, and in minority there is a duty to retreat while outside of your home or workplace, which means that you still are allowed to use deadly force, but you have to try to retreat first, and only use force if you are reasonably sure that you can’t run away.
Kidnapping by a group of people in plain clothes in an unmarked van is explicitly stated as an example of a case where use of deadly force is permitted by law.I think that would count as self defence.
but would the court?
According to law, it’s a matter of law in most of the states, and matter of jury instructions in a limited number of states. In other words, it is explicitly a law.
you’re almost there
I’m pretty sure self defence doesn’t apply against law enforcement, even if you don’t know they are law enforcement.
There have been cases where firing upon law enforcement who failed to adequately identify as such has counted as self defence
It may not, but imo you do what you have to do to protect yourself against aggravated kidnapping, and then hope you/your lawyer can articulate how/why you did what you did later in court.
Oh, totally, no dispute there.
As Legaleagle put it in their most recent video: At that point it becomes logical to resist arrest, to run or to fight.
It’s called “disappearing someone” and it was something that was supposedly done by dictators and tyrants.
Like today’s USA.
I would say the US has an executive with aspirations to implement aspects of a fascist state. As long as millions of people are protesting in the streets, the courts are ruling against the executive on points of law and people are standing their ground it is still a long road for the executive to get where they want to go. If the country really was full fascist you would be totally fucked and being shipped with your family to a concentration camp for disloyalty to great leader right now.
Unlike some other countries where law enforcement and prisons might be state run on principle, the US has a history of privatizing such functions. They had the union busting Pinkerton thugs, for profit prisons and bounty hunters. A society that didn’t cry out when the Pinkertons were busting the heads of working people or kids were being railroaded into for profit prison slavery shouldn’t be surprised when thugs are clearing the streets of immigrants. That is just America sadly. That nastiness has always been there.
Cracks me the fuck up the rest of the world thinks this now.
This has been the case since Bush passed Citizens United and it was even happening before that. RIP Rosenbergs.
I thought Citizens United was an Obama thing. Are you sure you don’t mean the Patriot Act?
It happened during the Obama administration but it was in response to shit under Bush from people being critical of him/his admin. Obama did not support Citizens United.
I thought it was a Supreme Court thing? What did Obama do?
Not every bad law is fascism.
I would say only in a vacuum.
If you see Ice agents covering their faces, call 911 and report a masked man with a gun.
Please forgive my ignorance but isn’t the police force in USA known for its violence and profiling? Wouldn’t they be “in” on it, too?
ICE isn’t alerting local law enforcement of what’s happening. They get a call about a masked gunman and they’ll show up.
Can the police do anything when they show up? Aren’t ICE federal agents and above the local police’s jurisdiction?
Shoot first, ask questions later
Finally, some thing they are good for!
When local police show up, they’ll make the ICE agents identify themselves.
From what I’ve seen (admittedly completely online anecdotes), the ICE agents flee before the local pd show up because theyre cowards
Doubt. Lotta local pd at some of these raids.
Lie and say they looked black so police show up faster and use their guns before asking to identify.
Police are more likely to show up and open fire on the civilians
Cops are there in minutes when seconds count.
You must live in a nice neighborhood. In my experience when seconds count cops show up in hours.
And get hauled away anyway.
You don’t have to be the one being targeted to act against them. If I see gestapo going after someone, I’ll make the call even though I don’t fit the profile of who they’re targeting today.
There’s gotta be
criminalsnon-ICE who exploit this. Like it must be so easy now for ransomers to kidnap somebody.Did you not see the security company guy who dressed as a cop and murdered a state senator, her husband, and shot another state senator?
But see, it was the other team, so it’s okay.
Thanks. Since moving from Reddit to Lemmy, I’ve become way more aware of what I’m clicking on. I’m pretty sure the amp project links are just for mobile phones n stuff, but it’s good to be aware
Thanks. Google was serving me nothing but slop
as if by design…
For Texas at least, under penal code 9.31(a)(1-3) it’s presumed to be reasonable self defense to use force (it specifically does not mention what kind of force, but it is assumed that deadly force is included, I think) against a person who “was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.”
It’s not even new. They did this to people during 2020 protests. They drove up in mini vans jumped out, grabbed people and pulled them into the mini van and drove off.
There used to be footage of it but I haven’t been able to find it. I think it was happening in Portland and Seattle. At the time there was live stream footage. And it usually happened later in the night as people were cooling off and dispersing.
America hasn’t been what it preaches for half century at least.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feds-unmarked-vans-portland/
The video snopes talks about I saw. Possibly even live streaming at the time because I was hooked on watching all that. Iirc it was a bronze gold colored minivan and the sliding door opened and 1 or two guys got out masked and just grabbed the person and pulled the protestor in and drove off.
Am from Seattle.
Yep, this happened in Seattle and Portland multiple times, just basically black bagging people into unmarked vans by… presumably, plain clothes / “off duty” / half kitted out, face obscured, no visible ID cops.
They typically did this black bagging to people who had not actually broken any laws, but were so effective at keeping protester morale high, and/or were simply causing overwhelming masses of people to defend them from, in many cases, literally entirely unprovoked police assault/brutality.
Most of these were the people they wanted to removr but knew that no charges would actually stick because they had nothing, and then release them 24-72 hours later.
Sometimes they’d black bag / white van people who had actually crossed the threshold into doing something they could actually charge you for, but most of the time, nope.
I know that in Portland the cops actively decided to act as body guards for fascists, and look the other way when they attacked people.
In Seattle, … the cops intentionally started so much shit, assaulting nonviolent people, well we uh… we literally forced them to abandon their major police office in Capitol Hill.
As in, we seiged them. Surrounded the building for days. Eventually they burned a bunch of records and made a stealthy withdrawal in the dead of night.
That police center is only a few blocks from where the ‘CHAZ’ would be set up.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone.
As in, we literally drove out the local police and are thus now autonomous.
… We’ve still never seen the all the actual communications between the police chief and mayor, other internal police records… because the police destroyed them. They destroyed them because they almost certainly outlined numerous violations of the law in terms of orders issued, tactics used, illegal arrests/detainments, bullshit ‘overtime’ overpayments and other financial shenanigans, crimes committed by the police and probably all the way up to the police chief and mayor engaging in a criminal conspiracy.
I feel like this isn’t talked about enough… You guys are badasses for that shit.
i remember this
I was in Seattle during this. Word was people got snatched here but I don’t recall seeing hard evidence myself. Portland though they for sure got caught kidnapping protesters
There were a bunch of theories the people they black bagged were undercover / plainclothes cops. Every video I saw were of younger white guys in good shape getting taken off the streets.
Are people in denial? It just seems like a commonly understood thing. I’ve talked to straight CNN consuming boomers and even they see it for what it is.
For the record I’m in Canada so maybe it’s just hard to see from the inside.
If they aren’t in the streets they are in denial
How long will people
The Gestapo could be hauling them away in cuffs and putting them away in camps and some will just go “why is this happening to me? there must be some mistake”
Anyone who is still on the fence is either only tuned into propaganda or is incapable of reasoning.
Or still thinks that the leopard won’t eat their face, because it hasn’t so far.
Yeah, for many the leopard has to actually be eating their face directly at the moment for it to be a problem.
There has to be some serious level of being downtrodden that’s required to like empathy for everyone else in the world that’s not them.
That’s 'Murica in a nutshell
Pretty much every other sign at the protests on Saturday openly called the situation fascism. “No fascist USA” was a common chant across America. LA erupted in civil unrest when fascists rolled up and starting trucking people out by the dozen, and people everywhere roared in protest.
Many of us have noticed. Many of us are working on it. We need to organize. We need to band together. We need to convince people that it’s not hopeless, that it’s not just more of the same and that it’s not inevitable.
Together we can change things. We need to do everything we can to grind the wheels of fascism to a halt. Feel free to help!
THIS. Everyone who’s feeling hopeless needs to get out of the Lemmy echo chamber and find people building the resistance in the real world. It’s actually not hard to do. Go to a protest and talk to people. Look online for a local resistance organization and show up at a meeting. Spend your money at companies that don’t support fascists. Whatever you do, just don’t give up because that’s exactly what the fascists want.
I mean America is a fascist regime. And you know who support fascism? Fascists. So I guess most fascists are kinda OK with what’s happening.
That’s not denial, that’s full endorsement.
Must be nice living in such a black and white world.
I wonder what chain of thought led you to this conclusion, which is very strange to me. But at the same time, I’m not willing to start some kind of futile quarell over this so… well, have it your way and have a good day.
This argument will just give the fascist leverage to call you a fascist. They are pros at projection and sadly you dont stand a chance.
The issue is fascists are going to lie regardless. There is nothing we can say, no way we can act that will prevent that. It is pointless to try.
Not asking that we try to confront the fascist populous. Asking we confront the fascist government.
I fail to see how this responds to my comment.
The op was saying americans are fascist so it makes sense the government is fascist. To claim the general populace is fascist will only get you in a shouting match of who the most fascist is. A distraction from what really matters, addressing the fascist regime occupying the white house.
Removed by mod
Apparently not because they keep doing it and are effective in their propaganda when they have no right to be.
Fun fact: you know who gave them that power? Bill Motherfucking Clinton. And he fucking did it for money.
funny how you never hear from the “cold dead hands” guys when tyranny actually happens
that’s what my ex wife called me
“good morning cold dead hands 😘”
that’s what my ex wife called me
Thats strange, she called me “warm lively hands”
You can be certain that a lot of concealed carry leftist will actively respond if something like this happens near/to them.
i hope so, but the people I’m referring to aren’t leftists. they’re the people who oppose any and all regulation and cite being able to defend against tyranny as the ostensible reason.
yet when this shit happens they’re awfully quiet. because they’re full of shit and fucking love tyranny.
I generally agree. I had one neighbor that always voted straight ticket and was a gun nut with a screw loose. Not a fan of tyranny though. I think losing his brother in Vietnam put a fire in his soul.
Lol
Lmao even
Rofls4realz
Generally people in America don’t get organized until there’s a disaster. That’s one of the lessons of the Great Depression/New Deal. Not the most optimal way to maintain democracy. It’s not really “maintenance” if you wait for the thing to break and then fix it.
That’s a pretty classic Marxist understanding of how class conflict actually happens. In response to a crisis a state can either adapt or fall into chaos if it can’t. That’s essentially what happened during the new deal era and the civil war respectively. Although arguably the external threats of WWII allowed the US to adapt rather than fall apart.
Ah, the American method in action!
To be fair, you’re not supposed to accept it. But the fascists sure would like it if you did.
Yep, a higher percentage of Americans support trump than weimar republic Germans ever supported Hitler. Fascist don’t have to engage in electoralism once they securely seize the power of the pulpit.
I’m done caring about America as a whole, I’m creating my mutual defense/support networks with friends and family and preparing for the worse. Democrats are still stuck in thirdway politics as the Reichstag burns to the ground.
The way Hitler took over with such a small support was by dividing the remaining citizens into smaller groups. Unity is our most powerful asset in resistance.
Trump has also failed to obtain abject loyalty of the military, which will prevent him from control by force.
Trump has also failed to obtain abject loyalty of the military, which will prevent him from control by force.
The problem is that also mimics hitler’s ascent to totalitarian control. Even at the height of his power lots of career soldiers and especially sailors were never really ideologically aligned with Hitler. Unfortunately, at the end of the day people in the military follow orders.
That’s not accurate. Germany had a strict top-down chain of military command, hence the Nuremberg trials defense of “just following orders.” After the trials, the US military was redesigned with a break above the Commanding Officer. The CO must verify the legality and constitutionality of orders before giving orders to the troops, just as it’s the responsibility of the troops to refuse to follow illegal or unconstitutional orders. CO’s have the JAGs, or Judge Advocate General Corps, who are legal advisors at the CO’s disposal to ensure they have the resources needed to remain accountable to the law and Constitution.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-armed-forces-high-command
That’s not accurate. Germany had a strict top-down chain of military command, hence the Nuremberg trials defense of “just following orders.”
The Nuremberg trials, like most international laws were an invention of convenience. If someone attempted to apply them to US action in a foreign intervention today, they would not be successful. In fact the US has stated that they would sooner invade a system like the ICC than allow them to prosecute anyone in the military.
After the trials, the US military was redesigned with a break above the Commanding Officer. The CO must verify the legality and constitutionality of orders before giving orders to the troops, just as it’s the responsibility of the troops to refuse to follow illegal or unconstitutional orders.
This may be a fact in doctrine, but in practice the military has historically has failed to fulfill this particular commitment. There have been several examples of US troops committing illegal actions commanded by officers without legal retribution.
You can refuse to follow orders you think are illegal, but more often than not it’s a career ending action or punishable offense if not proven in court…and military court is not exactly a non biased apparatus of justice.
This system depends on young soldiers with minimal educations and rights to stand up to a system that has an immencse amount of control over their lives. A system that has proven to defend higher command and officers in most cases, and to defend its overall image over anything.
Even higher commands ability to stand up to the commander in chief is limited, we can see this in the news today with active duty military members being deployed state side to conduct what is fairly obvious policing actions in LA and on the US border in a direct violation of posse comitatus.
You’re using an argument for the exceptions as the rule. It’s wildly sensationalist.
Out of 4,100 National Guard members and 700 Marines dispatched to LA, there has been one detainment of a US citizen, and no arrests. Detainment is currently being debated as a possible violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-marines-carry-out-first-known-detention-civilian-los-angeles-video-shows-2025-06-13/
There are also many instances of the National Guard laying down their riot shields, and even taking a knee to support citizens in peaceful protest. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/02/tennessee-national-guard-troops-lay-down-riot-shields-at-protesters-request/
The US has not signed the Rome Statute, and is therefore not beholden to the laws of the ICC unless in a nation that has signed said agreement.
Out of 4,100 National Guard members and 700 Marines dispatched to LA, there has been one detainment of a US citizen, and no arrests. Detainment is currently being debated as a possible violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-marines-carry-out-first-known-detention-civilian-los-angeles-video-shows-2025-06-13/
My entire point was that the rules that are supposed to protect the general population are often interpreted to serve those in power. Posse Comitatus is supposed to negate the use of military members from being used for policing on US soil.
Meaning that the definition of policing is being semantically interpreted as “arresting people” when in reality policing is defined as prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order.
What other purpose can the military be utilized against the general public other than to maintain public order?
There are also many instances of the National Guard laying down their riot shields, and even taking a knee to support citizens in peaceful protest. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/02/tennessee-national-guard-troops-lay-down-riot-shields-at-protesters-request/
First of all, the national guard are not active duty military personnel and can and are utilized in state policing actions. Secondly, laying down shields is not disobeying a direct order. Lastly we have historic examples of national guard members committing massacares against non violent protestors.
The US has not signed the Rome Statute, and is therefore not beholden to the laws of the ICC unless in a nation that has signed said agreement.
My point was that international law a kin to those laid down by the Nuremberg trials do not protect us from fascist utilizing the military against us.
Your claim was that we were granted protections via the establishment of the Nuremberg principals…the Nuremberg principals are now moderated by the ICC via the 1999 Rome statute.
You are just proving my point for me. Internal laws are subject to interpretation via those who currently hold power (fascist), and external laws are inventions of convenience that we do not and have never allowed to truly moderate our countries behavior. My original claim stands, that we are not really in a much different scenario than in Hitler’s Germany.
Securing your local community is the smartest thing to be doing right now
Yep, my faith in any established political party has been worn thin since the bush era. Right now I’m just working on teaching my LGBT friends how to maintain and shoot a rifle and how to properly stock a go bag.
And make sure you protest in ways the fascists approve of: no violence (the facists wouldn’t like that) and make sure you’re waving American flags (the fascists like to see American flags).
But remember you also gotta protest in ways the Dems would like too. So nothing too aggressive, and if your idea is anything less than perfect we should just not do it anyways.
(Actually we should protest like the French with fire bombs and guillotines)
