With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
In the old days when you disappeared into a cult, you physically went to live with them and everything.
These days it’s “cult to go.” Good luck intervening and cutting off their link to the cult when the cult is speaking to them from their pocket.
I miss those days, they’d go be weird on their own and not drag the rest of us into this crap
Its the Boisphere. No men are involved.
Toxic masculinity, feeding itself, empowered by the forces of capital who desires culture war above class war.
God damit this sentence makes me want to blow my brains out. It’s too fucking thick in bullshit. You ever notice how the right will just call someone a pedo or gang member and that really works. It’s not like they go " he’s just socioeconomic poverty based victim of modern prison system" like just get to that point. Andrew is a grown man who targets children.
That’s… Their point? Either you misread what they said or you wrote your response wrong.
I love just saying “toxic masculinity” anywhere online, even if you’re deep in the bowels of Lemmy, you will get a few reactionary turds who just see the term and lose all cognitive ability to think and mash the downvote button between heated breaths and tears streaming down their faces.
^ This reply shows me you don’t understand what men like Andrew Tate are selling. He’s selling validation to these boys and men, and you’re providing a perfect marketplace for that product to sell like hot cakes.
When you reply like that to these people, the mental picture of grown men having hissy fits and “mashing downvote buttons with tears in their eyes” might feel good in the moment, but those men and boys aren’t actually reacting like that. Instead, the message they get is they were right the whole time, that people like you really do just hate men and masculinity, and that people like Andrew Tate are the ones “on their side”.
I get that it feels good to trigger people you don’t like, but all you’re doing is making Andrew Tate’s job easier. Don’t you think he’s already making enough money as it is?
If they need validation from the likes of grifters and scumbags like Andrew Tate then they are already too far gone.
He’s a fucking tool, and I have no idea why he appeals to young men. There’s so many other, manlier, kinder folks out there who can provide that same validation.
Maybe they’re too far gone, but you’re talking about impressionable young boys, like 10-16. At those ages we as a society agree that a lot of all childrens personalities aren’t dictated by their own choices since they lack the life experiences and cognitive abilities to function as an adult. Instead they’re highly impressionable, influenced by their social sphere and nowadays their social media feeds.
So sure, maybe you could say they’re fucked from the jump, but understand that they are not taking as active of a role in who’s forming their thought processes like a 25 year old getting hooked on Tate is.
I’ve been a 10-16 year old boy. At no point was anyone like Andrew Tate “cool” to me. He’s not witty, he’s not talented, he’s done nothing XTREME. He’s clearly putting up a massive front to pretend to be interesting and for some reason - microplastics, smart phone addiction, whatever - it’s working.
Back in the 90s we would have called him “poser.”
Tate just talks into a microphone with his stupid friends. If that’s what is considered “cool” to today’s teenagers then they’re definitely too far gone.
Well said. Looking down on impressionable men with this sort of smug contempt is how we go further down the path.
Can I look down on them with disgust instead?
Isn’t tate already old news for the manosphere?
The article illustrate the Hypergamy concept. The men in that case might feel inadequacy after leaving the traditional role of breadwinner, which caused cognitive dissonance in his leftist views and make him vulnerable to the propaganda.
witch caused cognitive dissonance
Ahhh it was the witches all along
Before we rush to judgment about witches. We really should test them to make sure that they are witches.
Ooh maybe some sort of test in the water?
We have to see if the witches float!
I’ll get the giant scale
I’ll find a duck.
YES! A swimsuit competition!
Im in a bubble where these guys are like the most laughable parody of themselves so maybe I’m biased but… I mean nobody is taking this kind of stuff serious right? I mean cool, free speech and such but dumb behavior had consequences, right?
You caught on early, and rejected it. There are plenty of new recruits introduced every day, who are taking it seriously.
They definitely are, more and more, it’s the same as every popular movement. They pad the propaganda with legitimately good advice and some controversial but easily supportable facts. That makes the more controversial items easier to swallow.
It’s probably 50/50.
50% of the people are using it as entertainment while laughing at and encouraging those who take it seriously. We can call them the ‘trolls.’
50% of the people are actually taking it seriously and don’t know any better. We can call them the ‘tools.’
People absolutely take this stuff seriously. The problem is the most bone headed guys are the ones likely to fall for this stuff. Once they’re sucked in it’s hard to convince them otherwise.
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Yeah, I’m studying to be a teacher and have had several internships during my education.
Young teen boys, 12-15, are into it. They aren’t a majority, but they exist. One of the students came to me and asked if I knew what the matrix was. He was really into redpill shit! Had many conversations with him and hope he hasn’t gone deeper.
Does that make the Wachowskis some kind of prophets to them?
No, the Wachowskis are trans and therefore bad.
X-pill has transcended the artist’s intent, much like Pepe the Frog. Feelsbadman
Isn’t the manosphere pretty transphobic? I would assume they have pretty much divorced all Matrix concepts from the Wachowskis by now.
The redpill shit can look really innocent at first. They start off with a lot of talk about self improvement, and that’s great and all. It’s just not too many steps away from the gaslight your bitch stuff.
Taking the red pill means different things to different people.
I hope one day we can have psychologists seriously study and analyze the meaning behind such an idea and how it can be such a powerful tool.
To answer the headline: divorce, I hope.
Yes. It is worth trying to address issues first, especially with kids/finances involved, but if nothing works divorce still does.
I would no longer recommend marriage tbh
Divorce is in many case the trigger. The MGTOW-community was/is a lot of divorced men who feel mistreated by society, and blame women for it.
I remember being excited and thinking maybe I had found my people when I first heard about MGTOW thinking it would be dudes who realized maybe dating wasn’t for them and instead were just focusing on improving themselves. Then I looked at their subreddit and no, just a shitton of misogyny.
Yeah, on paper I’m a mgtow. After about 2 seconds I was like “wait, these people are losers.” Turns out I’m a relationship anarchist.
There’s an old adage that you should never make life policy decisions based on how you feel in the moment. The MGTOW guys, even the “best” of them are stuck in a perpetual reaction state and thus their policy and mission statement are less actual tactics for finding comfort and peace, and more a reaction designed to elicit a response from other people.
It’s a tantrum. They’re all throwing a tantrum.
If you’re actually making your own decisions about if you want to date or not, you just do it, you don’t need to wear it like a uniform, you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life. The MGTOW movement, even in the most charitable possible light, is massively performative and expecting some kind of attention. This is why they get increasingly vocal and toxic, they’re like the 11-year-old kid who packed all his favorite belongings in a checkerboard bindle over his shoulder and is at the front door shouting “I’M REALLY RUNNING AWAY NOW! FOR REAL! YOU’RE ALL GONNA BE SORRY!”
you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life.
For me the interest was in having a group to talk with that was of the same mindset and knowing I wouldn’t have to deal with people complaining about their relationship issues or changing plans because of spouse/kids. Which is not something I have in life. I have individuals who I can talk with like that but if we get more than 3-4 of us together someone’s going to start bitching about relationship stuff.
Yeah though the vibe of that community was exactly as you described and not what I was looking for at all.
That’s the worst part of MGTOW. It’s a nice premise, and then they just dumped toxic waste on it.
IMO this is basically how society works. As soon as you rally more than a few people together under any singular form of identity (brand, activity, social movement), it turns toxic. So, by the time the label carries any meaning (e.g. MGTOW or even something like Feminist) the “voice” of the group becomes abrasive very quickly, and the internal ranks are filled with crazies that have so little meaning in their life that they actually enjoy forming their whole identity around a specific subject.
So you like cars and go to a car meet. You’ll meet a few cool folks. But the people there are just from the general population, with only one thing in common. If you find that you typically only really like 1/50 people you meet, you’re not going to find a higher ratio just because everyone likes cars, unless you literally value cars over all the other sociocultural aspects of your life. As a group, they’ll push ideals and causes that go overboard to support the thing they like. Maybe anti-biker or anti-evironmentalist sentiments, want more roads instead of better mass transit, etc… all sorts of things the average person who just “likes cars” may not be comfortable getting behind.
People are a problem.
And the more people the more problem.
Tbf I suspect a lot of this developed from people moving from a “we” mindset during WW2 to the “me” mindset that came out of Reaganomics.
When humanity can no longer look at our neighbour and simply respect them - no matter their skin colour, religion or political viewpoint - that’s when the shit hits the fan.
And politicians have seen fit to feed this sickness rather than work towards unity … because peace doesn’t pay (or play) as well as divisiveness.
Self improvement is a trap and misogyny is the scapegoat. “I have a nice car/house/job/makes lots of money now but still women won’t fuck me, they must be evil!”. It’s always all about becoming some übermensh but never about finding a social context, which is what these men actually need.
When economic independence is rare, divorce is rare.
I guess getting rid of no fault divorces helps that too
Seriously I’ve already had this conversation with my husband. If no-fault divorce seems imminent we are divorcing preemptively.
there was plenty of warning signs for Years, even before the pandemic. if you look at how pickup artist operate, and then go on youtube. Tate isnt even a new phenemon, hes a culmination of the above problems. hes just the latest symptom, as was JOE ROGAN.
Yeah but in the olden days they were on a print ad in the back of Popular Mechanics, not the leading talk show in the nation.
Agreed.
It’s clear though what kind of males fall for these influencers; the ones without good male role models or father figures in their lives.
Why don’t they have good male role models or father figures? I think it’s because they feel they can only choose between ‘cuck’ and ‘chad’ so when their insecurity flares up, they instinctively go with ‘chad.’
Balance is lost among men in our society. There’s no ‘firmness’ anymore. Either men are pensive emo teens, or they’re boisterous blowhards like tate.
Anyone in between is ignored and forgotten about.
i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you’re supposed to argue with him or something
Ideally, you have these “arguments” well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and “wake up” to realize that the shit they’re holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
I have for almost my entire life been entirely too accommodating of other people. My husband has some issues, but a lot of them are small, lack malice or unintentional. Such is human interaction. He is a self declared feminist, however its taken a few years of us being together before he started doing half the cleaning and things like his own laundry. We both work full time. Such is society.
He smokes 🌳 daily, i smoke 🚬 infrequently. He hates that I do, says he wants a divorce if he catches me and is quite controlling about it tbh. So I’ve always hidden it from him, I usually smoke 10 a week when I’m smoking and when I dont smoke I go 3-24 months without one. Last night I realized I’m a grown ass woman being treated like a child and I’m enabling the behavior. So I told him I was going outside to smoke. He kicked up his normal fuss, but this morning he initiated a conversation about it calmly and we spoke about it like adults.In the same way that the patriarchy harms both men and women, misogyny is upheld by both men and women. Not to equal levels of course on either count, but im so proud of all the people, men and women, who can call this shit out. It took me entirely too long in this example.
(Also lol at the carton of eggs joke)
Just based on what I see women doing around me all the time, there were probably some warning signs. Looking for a dude that’s “traditional” or whatever is asking for a dude that’s going to see you like a form of livestock. It’s partly a politics thing, but largely an assholes thing.
41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
WTF those are both shockingly high.
Rachel, who is in her 30s and lives in London, met her partner on the popular dating app Hinge, and was struck by his generosity. He insisted on buying her gifts and giving her cash to spend. She thought her now ex-partner was a “normal, decent guy”.
Yeah…
I mean, it’s a tale as old as time.
Shitty males buy females thing to avoid being held accountable.
I disagree.
Usually it’s the ‘modern’ women who have been convinced to be treated like livestock. Nothing very traditional about going to raves or wearing pasties.
If you just translate the figures to “41% of young men, 12% of young women are stupid assholes”, they make a bit more sense.
Still, 41% sounds absolutely critical level, like we need to stop all society and have a conversation, because that is so uncool.
Fucking 41… Like that is a plurality. That is a whole fucking lot of wrong people. That is entirely too many bros. I’m not sure I can impart just how disappointing that number is.
There are many different ways to be a stupid asshole, and you can even do it while at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum.
Confirmed. Sometimes I start a sentence and don’t even know what my point is until I get to the end of it! I am a total fool. But at least I’m not a fuckin chud.
I support Tate…
…Being locked in prison for the rest of his life.
But first I would really like him to receive a serious public ass-beating, recorded for posterity. I feel like that would be worse for him than the prison time.
There isn’t anything wrong with a traditional worldview but it certainly doesn’t fit most modern relationships. Either way I think all young men go through an idiot phase where it’s easier to complain about the systems in place then to be introspective and improve yourself. I’m saying most people usually go through a redpill phase and if they are able to sympathize then it’s usually a short phase. The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
Not unable, unwilling. It requires them to be ‘weak’ and concede that they may be part of the problem. I say this as a man that had to work through some of this shit when I was young.
So, we should only listen to one party’s complaints?
No one said that.
Right, it was implied though.
Essentially, we shouldn’t listen to the men complaining but the men should listen to you complaining?
No. We’re saying you should look inward and address your own short-comings and poor behaviors before looking to blame external sources for your issues. No one is saying anything about what men should listen to.
No one implied that.
Depends what you mean by “traditional worldview”. I’ll go ahead and say young earth creationism shows a lack of openness to objective reality when it’s not personally convenient.
In the context I mean, what gets justified with tradition is behavior like putting on a fake persona when dating, pushing boundaries, disregarding the rights of strangers around them and generally being an entitled, eventually controlling dickwad. They’ll say that’s what men have always done, and boys will be boys or whatever, but I’m certain nobody had to “twist their arm”.
When I see one of those dudes dragging a girl around, I have to wonder if she’s chasing a kink. That’s not how you go about it, if so. 50 Shades of Grey was fiction.
I want to say that’s a young person thing but I’m not really sure. I know the world would be a much better place if say Alan Watts was a household name instead of Andrew Tate.
Get a new partner… they’re gone
Even if they come back. It’s not worth the labour to hold their hand through that shit. Maybe their mom or dad can talk some sense into them, but I sure as shit wouldn’t want to live with someone like that while they figure out how to screw their head back on straight.
My daughter won’t even talk to guys who in any way support Andrew Tate or MAGA influencers. They aren’t incels, they choose to be celibate by openly displaying their hatred for women.
All incelularity is self-inflicted. They put up all the barriers. I mean, it’s obvious on the face of it; there is obviously no conspiracy to keep this one guy celibate. If there are factors that are keeping him celibate, they are entirely his own.
I’m not trying to defend them, but the lonely guy to incel pipeline is a real thing. They are targeted, propagandized, and monetized. I believe people are responsible for the decisions they make, so I’m not saying they aren’t to blame for that, but I am saying it’s more complex than just that.
Couple that with the fact that it’s getting harder and harder to go out and socialize with real people due to everything getting more expensive (except wages). People are losing their third space and are replacing it with these grifter online forums, it’s far more affordable than going to a bar or social place, more and more people are staying home these days.
There was a great interview with a woman who had written a book on the Manosphere and she said that it’s “funnel-shaped,” which is to say that the first stages are nowhere near as extreme as the ones they lead to. It starts off by talking to lonely young men and telling them that their feelings are valid and that they have value, both of which are things that young men very much do need to hear! But the pipeline then moves them from that to “Your feelings of isolation aren’t your fault” to “Your negative feelings are women’s fault,” and then you’re off the primrose path to “Women aren’t people” and “Women deserve any horrible treatment you can think of.”
But the earliest stages are ones of finding young men that aren’t having their emotional or structural needs met, and filling that vacuum in.
It starts off by talking to lonely young men and telling them that their feelings are valid and that they have value, both of which are things that young men very much do need to hear!
That sort of thinking just made me overly emotional and hot-tempered. Just feeling the feelings was a good thing, so the more I felt it the better, right?
Hearing that I needed to temper my feelings so that I can figure out what I need and how to communicate those needs was a lot more helpful. And made me a better person overall.
And they seem to be the only ones talking toyoung boys so…
You become an incel the moment you externalize all the blame. It is their defining characteristic, that their celibacy is every- and anyone’s fault but their own.
Perhaps, but maybe it doesn’t matter. I want to live in a society where people are kind to one another, where they listen to one another, and where they have the opportunity to be prosperous. From my experience the place I was born, (BC, Canada), is trending away from that. I believe helping these lost youngsters become better people would help reverse that trend, and I think one of the first steps towards helping them is to have more empathy.
Lots of people have an external locus of control and I don’t know if that’s easily changed, but I do know it doesn’t mean that they have to be hateful.
I mean, probably the ones who have an internal locus commit suicide at some point unfortunately. The fluidity of relationships today and people connecting by tech significantly increased the transactional aspect of modern life.
Gender wars are the easiest form of manipulation, you just need to get the extreme cases make a straw-men argument and generalize for both men and women to radicalize new people.
I believe that process starts with identifying, and then aiding. But we can’t break through to any of these people so long as our digital landscapes are just stomping grounds for this idealogy. I honestly can’t believe hate and bigotry have caught this much fire after Tolkein created the perfect archetypes for men to follow.
If there are factors that are keeping him celibate, they are entirely his own.
Though not entirely, that’s no reason to become an incel, either. No girl got to hop on anyone’s D ever.
Agreed, having no luck getting sex and being an incel are totally different things.
Maybe they’re gay
EDIT: and won’t admit it so they overcompensate
Nuh uh, fuck that sweety, that’s some straight boy shit for sure.
I have a cousin who was really obnoxious and macho. Then he came out of the closet and dropped all that shit. When people can’t be their authentic selves, they tend to lash out in strange ways. Homophobia was drilled into my cousin at a young age so it was really hard for him to accept who he is.
Yeah as a lesbian I’ve seen gay boy misogyny and this ain’t it
What I mean is maybe they’re gay and unable to admit it so they overcompensate.
Nothing wrong with being gay, there is something wrong with being repressed. People who can’t be themselves lash out at others. Men with repressed femininity hate women and out gay men for being openly feminine.
I’ve known men who were kind, gentle boys but were forced into ‘tough boy’ roles by either their parents or their peers/bullies. They become angry and violent and everyone around them never understood how it happened.
Andrew Tate is absolutely the sort of guy that would shoot Kevin Spacey in American Beauty
Isn’t shooting Kevin spacey a good thing?
Lol imagine downvoting the shooting of a serial abuser.
Haha right? He’s a pedo
That’s what I meant. Apologies if that wasn’t obvious
There’s nothing wrong with being repressed, there’s something wrong with taking it out on others in a negative way.
The Patriarchy has always been homoerotic. Even society’s choice of male sex symbols, the Hemsworth type, was made by men. Turns out what women actually like is scrawny Koreans.
Back in my day when I was living on the street we called them volcels. And by back in my day I mean a few years ago, and by the street I mean discord.
When I date people, I don’t allow myself to go forward without completing a mutual background check. I ask questions and talk about politics, tell about situations I’ve encountered and listen attentively.
I want to know about the other person’s world views, decision-making and problem-solving methods - and to inform them about my own. I want to know how they tell apart truth from a lie, what they think about state and centralization, wealth and poverty, science and religion, civil rights and minorities - and to inform them about what I think, so they could make informed decisions.
Ironically, I don’t wish to know what party they vote for - because the selection is shitty and I laugh about my own past choices. :)
Recalling situations where world views mismatched - I’ve had to part ways with one person because she was too spiritual. Two people subscribed to odd conspiracy theories. One person’s goals in life warned me about excessive self-interest and lack of care about others.
P.S.
Trying to switch perspective and step into the shoes of a woman, I think it can be a warning sign if the other person gives excessive gifts or feels “obligated to take care” - one should inquire about the reason. I would also be wary of people who eagerly accept me as the new centerpoint of their life - it might indicate an obsessive tendency and severe symptoms if the relation should break. If the other person exhibited jealousy about friends or controlling behaviour, that would be a definite warning sign to me.
P.P.S.
As for social media, yes, it can corrupt people’s perception of reality. How to pull them out of the bog, no idea. As for how to avoid them getting there: no algorithmically steered social media.
How to pull them out of the bog, no idea.
For my part I’ve just confessed my ignorance of what’s going on on the commercial web, and shared with them the kinds of conversations I’m have on the non-commercial parts (fedi, email, chats, smol web, etc), which are usually nicer and more productive.
Although to certain extent I still consider this here a form a social media… and I’m not actually sure that it’s good for us past a certain number of people. It might be “more cacophony than community” to quote one of Matthew Graybosch’s blog posts.
It is better here than on the mainstream social medias, though. That’s for sure for sure.
EDIT anyway, that’s a total aside. I just couldn’t help picking up that one thread. Good comment. I love your approach.
gives excessive gifts
Huge red flag. Becomes a tool of control (I was married into a wealthy family.)
The big thing is that they can change their personality after marriage - once you are trapped. There were red flags there, which I shouldn’t have ignored, but it was like night and day.
Mine started getting interested in stuff like religion - noticed that his pastor friend got to play WoW all day while the wife basically did everything.
I think it’s a good strategy but it’s not fool proof. They’ll tell you what you want to hear and then slowly start pushing your boundaries. Or they’ll pretend to be one way only to get what they want out of you.
Sure, but I don’t think it’s meant to be foolproof, it sounds like a great way to start
Occasionally my partner does or says some things that remind me of the “manosphere” aka 4chan neckbeards.
And when it happens, we talk about it. I don’t pretend or let it go as “he doesn’t mean it” or “he doesn’t know what he’s saying”. I don’t get mad and he doesn’t get mad. We have an adult discussion and I’m careful not to talk down to him.
A perfect example was that he sometimes says “females” when he means “women”. I explain that it’s not a swear word but it’s still derogatory. I explain why. Once I did, he understood and stopped doing it.
It doesn’t have to be a big deal! Communication is key!
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No. Stop treating people like livestock.
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i don’t know how could anyone watch Star Trek DS9 and still call women “females” like a Ferengi
serious answer: by consistently running and reading experiments that refer to male and female patients.
I try my best, but if I’ve read three-four papers in a day about a topic and all of them use male and female, probably gonna accidentally say female.
Funny you say that! He doesn’t do it anymore but I just sent him this meme from !tenforward@lemmy.world!
As long as you also made sure that if he does say it again he has to pronounce it like tamales
I laughed at this and now I’m going to do that in my head whenever I see that word
Communication is key
Sure, but honestly it sounds tiring if this kind of discussion is a recurring thing.
Yeah, why can’t he just agree with you on everything right out the gate?
Agreed! But for me it’s not all that often, luckily.
Good luck with that. A red flag is a red flag.
I’m guessing you’re single.
Everyone, keep in mind, there’s a lot of losers on the internet who will never find love and don’t want you to find love, either.
Don’t end up like them unless you want to.
I appreciate that he is willing to learn and grow. We all make mistakes. If you understand why it’s offensive and keep doing it, yeah red flag.
I think the ability to change with new information is admirable.
It is admirable and increasingly rare.
I’m sure this person really appreciates this warning about a person that they know and you don’t
It’s similar to how I appreciate your reply.
I think it depends on how often they’re coming up with dubious takes, and how often there are repeats.
Like if you have to explain that gay people are just trying to live life, and that’s fixing misinformation they got as a youth, fine. Good, even. But if you have that talk and then have to have to again a month later because they “forgot” or picked up more bad ideas? Concerning.
Friend of a friend was always getting talks to patch up his dicey world view, but then he’d go back to the same YouTube or shitty friends and come back two weeks later with a fresh batch of bad ideas. Really have to get to the root of the problem
it’s still derogatory
It logically isn’t. While you think that, and anyone spending their future with you should mind it, it doesn’t make it true.
Language isn’t always about logic. Discussing things in terms of male/female is fine in many contexts but is often done when discussing science or medical topics. Ex: the male pelvis has a different, narrower shape than the female pelvis. It’s also used in situations where people are deliberately ‘othering’ people. Watch any police bodycam footage and you’ll see that cops frequently say “male/female” when discussing non-police individuals.
In daily life, most people use men/women for non-scientific discourse. The women’s restroom. A group of men at the restaurant. Etc.
But here’s the thing. Male/female are used for any species (a male beetle), but man/woman are only used for humans.
Assholes like Tate push a twist in this dynamic so that men are called men but women are called females because it can be dehumanizing to women. When you say female you could be talking about an insect, but a man is human. It’s a succinct example of their philosophy. That’s why people consider it derogatory.
It is if you say “man” and “female” instead of “male” and “female”. While it can be a noun, it’s mainly used as an adjective to describe sex.
It’s like saying “A black owns the shop.” Instead of “A black man owns the shop.”
Notice how calling someone “a black” is kinda icky?
The rule of thumb I use is that you shouldn’t use adjectives as nouns when talking about people. The adjective needs a noun to describe.
I was going to comment that, a while ago, I saw someone on Lemmy make almost exactly this comment.
Now I wonder if the person I saw was you or, alternatively, whether you saw the same person.
I don’t recall where it came from. I definitely read it somewhere and didn’t come up with it on my own. Probably here on Lemmy or on Reddit before that! It was the first example I saw that was able to articulate why it doesn’t feel right to say “female” as a noun when referring to a person.
Well, good on you for your progressive perspective and your willingness to express it.
if you say “man” and “female” instead of “male” and “female”.
That’s extra cringe if they do: that person needs to sort out their words. Is it not if they say “male” and “female”?
Notice how calling someone “a black” is kinda icky?
It’s hard cringe & awkward: certain to provoke odd looks.
Referring to someone as an instance of their gender could be icky & cringe. That it’s also derogatory doesn’t follow: the easiest counterexample is “a male”.
What makes you the ultimate authority on what terms a woman can consider “derogatory”? Where do you get the power to decide what words other people should use to describe their own feelings? What makes your opinion about it more valid than those of others?
Have you considered that the same word can make two different people feel two different ways? Unless you’ve got the power to know exactly what another person is feeling, there is nothing that makes your thoughts more valid than the thoughts of others in this matter. Doubling down that “derogatory” isn’t the right word to use gives the impression that you don’t believe “female” actually feels derogatory to a lot of women. Gotta wonder why that might be.
Male’s haven’t been actively repressed as a result of their gender for thousands of years. Simply switching the genders does not work because they’re not equitible terms. Systematically speaking, they come from different backgrounds and expectations.
I take your point that “female” as a durogatory term is relative to the context it’s used in. But we can’t pretend we’ve lived in a world of equal opportunity that treats men and women, males and females, equally in trying to make that point.
You leave them.
