i can’t even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they’re not quiet now once they get called out
It’s so weird. Gaza is extremely important and deserving of the attention. It’s genocide, and it’s horrific. But is no one else important? Because we can’t save Gaza immediately, it’s really better to set outselevs on fire so we can burn together? Like, real talk, Harris will be fine. Biden will be fine. It’s our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
I wouldn’t say they’re gone though. I’ve been down voted, told “my kind/type” are all talk, or that I’m okay with murder, I voted for genocide, the usual. But I couldn’t sit and do nothing.
But I guess this is what they wanted. The dems have been taught a lesson, we’re moving headfirst into a dictatorship, and Gaza is no safer, but their conscious is clear, somehow.
Out of curiosity, what wouldn’t you be willing to compromise on? If I had a party wanting to kill your mom and dad and another who just wants to kill your dad, would you make that compromise?
Ummm…yes! Of course I would make that compromise! If I have a choice between they both die or one dies, of course I’m taking the choice where one lives!
What wouldn’t I be willing to compromise on? Nothing. If I have a choice between bad and worse, I’m taking bad, what kind of lunatic would intentionally choose worse?
Well, add another layer of complexity. The lesser of two evil guy wants to be picked. But instead of offering anything, he really wants to kill one of your parents and banks on your choice. He could of guaranteed getting picked by saying he’d kill none of your parents. But he does wanna kill one of them and gambled on you picking the lesser evil.
Didn’t happen, and you think it’s somehow the person making the impossible choice wrongly than the ones making the choices.
Thank you for your time.
Good comment, because this was the choice some were asked to make, to degrees ranging from similar to almost literally.
As an educated citizen I openly acknowledge voter abstention or voting Republican is irresponsible in carrying out my responsibility to protect my neighbor.
However I also recognize the incredibly painful and emotionally choking situation some were put in, with no messaging of empathy from either side. I will never blame those people more than I blame the party which failed them. Distribute it 51%/49% even, I don’t care. I’m just sick of the finger pointing and shit slinging against a tiny minority who bore no impact on the election outcome in the first place.
This dialogue, which OP is capitulating to, is perfect fascist propaganda. Find an insignificantly tiny out group, which conveniently happens to be majority Arab-American, and blame them for the violence while corporate interests and ever more racist border politics go unspoken.
Exactly. It sounds rhetorical, silly and a stupid straw man of sorts. But that’s because people don’t understand there were people who had to actually make such decisions.
I agree, I voted Kamala Harris and I do wish we could all bite that bullet but I understand that failure to do so is on the campaign who made a gamble that they could never lose voters in a lesser evil campaign. They were wrong. Instead of criticizing that campaign many here want to fight the same people they claim to want to protect. They are turning on immigrants, Muslims, and queer folk and throwing blame at the people they themselves believe they need to win.
I would say “funny strategy” but there is no strategy here. It’s online liberals who don’t understand what happened and are upset and angry. They just came out of a campaign in which they spent so much of their time justifying the lesser of two evils that they can’t even acknowledge that it didn’t work and it’s the campaigns fault.
My hope is maybe they can stop arguing with us before the concentration camps come up.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they are Isreali or Russian psy ops accounts (or at least useful idiots that have bought the psy ops).
When the war started, Lemmy was overrun by the “criticism of Isreal is antisemetic” accounts. That was rejected pretty hard. Those guys disappeared, and the “never genocide” people took their place.
It almost seems like a change in tactics to achieve the same goal.
Considering the fediverse’s low market share compared to non-federated alternatives, I’d be suprised if any malicious actors waste time and money running a psyops here. Like, you reach more people on Reddit for the same ammount of effort.
You’d reach more people on bigger platforms, but it is easier to steer the conversation with smaller groups. So I don’t think its totally clear-cut where the best psyops targets would be.
thank you for saying this skskkssk. Occam’s razor: is it more likely that foreign psy-ops have incredibly poor cost-benefit analysis skills (while excelling in everything else), or that a couple dozen people have deeply held beliefs that led them to be vocal in the midst of tragedy?
call me crazy but the latter narrative makes a lot fewer assumptions.
Oh, don’t worry, the conspiracy theory is capable of making sense of any incongruities like that, just like OP can explain away the fact that we didn’t actually disappear as predicted. You see, this is where the Russian bots practice their techniques and try out different lines before deploying them on a larger scale.
It’s not based on evidence or reason so the believers will never be convinced based on evidence or reason, same as any other conspiracy theory.
the “criticism of Israel is antisemitism” accounts are gone because they were banned. Zionism and the insistence that a genocidal state is indivisible from an entire ethnic group is racism, and against most instance’s TOS.
“never genocide” content does not break TOS and so has lasted since october 7th through today. to the uninformed eye this dynamic might look like a change in tactic but really it’s just two different groups, one which got banned after a few days or weeks and one which did not.
just correcting your “change in tactics”/“it’s astroturfing” narrative. i don’t think it holds up in comparison to a much more likely explanation, and i might even use the word ludicrous to describe your argument unless you can provide further evidence.
It was 100% astroturfing, 20% people falling for bullshit. Sounds like politics
15% concentrated power of shill.
Absolutely! There is no doubt. Such fallacies is what they do. Mostly they go with “they are all the same”, then take an absolute approach attack on the principles of the left(er) political party.
Real Talk, I’m getting real tired of everyone from the vaguely right of center to the farthest reaches of the left getting involved in this shit slinging blame game.
I legit don’t care anymore who you voted for (edit: so long as it wasn’t Trump I mean. But even then, time to start your redemption arc if you did). We are past the election and now all share the same immediate issues.
Folks who abstained from voting (or voted 3rd party) because you couldn’t stomach the lesser of two evils, good news, that choice is gone. You can stop parroting the idea that anyone who voted Blue did so “in support of genocide”. It should be clear by now those who voted Blue really were just doing their best in a bad situation, they are not your enemies.
Folks who voted Blue because you believe supporting the lesser evil is in service of the greater good. Good news, that burden is also gone. You can stop parroting the idea that someone who can’t stomach voting for people who would play politics with genocide is really just a tankie or a bot. Not every one is willing to play game theory with people’s lives, that doesn’t mean they are your enemies.
Anyone who truly wants to push for solidarity and human rights for all is an ally of mine. And I propose we bury the hatchet, preferably in the objectives of fascists, before its too late.
On this platform specifically we’ve had months of smug people claiming to make the moral choice of directly or indirectly supporting the clearly worse choice. It’s far too early to just let that slide.
If we in 100 years still sometimes talk about the early days of the fediverse where a bunch of morons fell for astroturfing, that’s kind of a good outcome.
If they’re real people they should feel bad.
For the not so real people, we should figure out how a distibuted system can deal with a concerted astroturfing operation.
They’re easy targets. Blame the abstainers and third party voters and you don’t have to confront the legitimate failures of your party and campaign.
I think it is important to point out the failings of others. Otherwise they may not connect the dots and learn from their mistakes.
Sometimes a mistake is innocent, say you forgot to zip up your fly. It’s important to know you forgot to do so as it could be very socially embarrassing.
Sometimes one could accidentally cut someone off in traffic because they didn’t see them. A good honk notifies them of their mistake and will hopefully drive home the fact that they probably need to pay better attention to traffic.
Pointing out that abstaining and or choosing not to vote enabled the election of the greater of two evils is equally important.
Rock on OP. Never let them forget!
I’d rather keep up the blame game, ngl. Arguments didn’t work on the disingenuous pricks who helped get us here. I don’t care if they personally made a difference or not, I care that they were utterly unreasonable, and the change in circumstances won’t change that.
Speaking to anyone who could’ve voted for Kamala but didn’t: I don’t care about solidarity anymore; you didn’t have solidarity with us when we needed you. Y’all are fucking stupid and I don’t want to deal with that. I realize that’s not the moral choice, but RN for the first time in over a decade I don’t care about that. I’m angry. Maybe in a few more days or weeks or months that will change, maybe not. Right now I’m focusing on making sure all my remaining friends are able to get somewhere safe if the need arises and keep hope kindled in their hearts. Maybe that means other people who need my help more will suffer, die, or fall victim to their own despair, but I just don’t have the wherewithal to make that my priority.
Sounds like you have your hands full dealing with getting you and yours to safety. Good luck, I wish you all the best in that endeavor!
I can’t blame you for being angry, but just try not to let that anger turn you into the thing you are angry at. Someone who stands idly by when someone needs help you could provide.
They voted for a worse genocide.
In 2 different places no less and possibly more.
They just don’t know it yet.
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Last I checked Trump lost 3 million voters since last election, and Harris lost 10 million.
The couch won. It’s not like people were suddenly won over by a person they’ve likely seen through 3 election cycles.
Right, which is why people are angry at the people who couldn’t even go vote for Harris
You forgot at home, where the marginalized groups are also gonna feel the brunt of turnips policies.
I’ve a feeling some of them know it. They’re just remaining here to maintain enough credibility to be believable during the next propaganda wave that’ll hit us once trump allows his boss to crater Kiev.
Dems failed and people who abhor genocide unfortunately had little to do with it, though listening to Lemmy libs you’d think they personally destroyed her campaign
I have been seeing this online, leftist, superposition where people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC, and that enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide, to make them lose. I have seen it argued both ways from a number of the same people, in different threads, when the messaging behind either, works in their favor. No these people are not russian bots, they have been around lemmy, doing normal poster stuff, for a while now. They just want to not take any blame, and also claim their issue was far more universally important than it was.
“My vote for Jill Stein/My non vote for protest/etc. isn’t what killed her chance, it was people being mad about other things the DNC didn’t do well!” Then, on another post, seeing the same user name, “15 million people wouldn’t have sat out had they stopped supporting Israel!”
people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC
a) yeah people are saying this.
enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide
b) no one is saying this except people who are so misinformed that they would deny a) anyway. you’re attributing the words of two separate groups of people to everyone in that group.
edit: sorry for the false assertion, corrected
@kameecoding English6•
My favorite lemmy bubble is the smug woke ( idiot leftists, who think they are smart but aren’t) who think Kamala lost because she didn’t take a stance on Gaza and people abstained in protest and not because of sexism and racism.
and to this is the direct reply
@SeattleRain English2•
That is why she lost to though. 15 million blank ballots don’t lie.
There are more people in that thread saying this in various different ways, and this is just the most recent one in my post history.
yikes ok thanks for the correction. didn’t know people were that poorly informed.
i’ll see what i can do to correct my comment in an edit, it’s obvious the user you quoted is way off base in saying the B portion of my comment. not sure if they would also say the A portion though.
edit: for anyone curious, the “15 million” that user refers to is a purported number of democrats that didn’t show up to vote. and so has nothing to do with “blank ballots.” plus that number isn’t even real apparently and it’s less, see that fact check link for more.
It’s cool, I see this a lot lately. Yeah, I am not siding with commenter one, this example was just the first in my history. No offense to you, I don’t really think this conversation is worth more work than that. I have a number of examples hidden in there though, also consider I didn’t bother commenting most of the times I saw this type of thing.
Personally, while I listen to people, and can’t but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn’t THE issue. However, people like Seattle here, seem to be in a bubble. My personal friends care about this, I do, it is common in most of the online spaces I am in, but when I get out into an unfiltered space, it becomes clear gaza isn’t a consideration, or is so far down the list, it might as well not be.
Personally, while I listen to people, and can’t but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn’t THE issue.
Agree. I heard Hasanabi frame it as, the US is certainly sexist and racist, yes, but those hurdles could have been overcome (as with Obama) by employing messaging that is appealing to the majority public who feel alienated from their labor and neighbors. And that did not happen, not nearly enough or comparably to Obama, and so racism and sexism won out.
Yes, much of the labor here voted trump due to blindly reaching out to someone they thought was a political outsider. Now they are furious that their compensation is going to be cut, and their union (this is largely manufacturing) can’t do anything, because their company can materially prove major losses in profit margins. Even the top brass, in a number of these companies, are having their contracts re-negotiated to reduce their compensation. Locally, they voted more progressive than in decades, because they saw those people as outsiders too. This goes right along with what AOC, and Bernie, are saying about people who voted for both them and trump.
Much of the people, who voted biden, and then sat this out, are older white men. People seem to think just mentioning this means you are saying it was all hate due to woman of color. However, I also see the concerns of this demographic are way different than those who would be seriously concerned about palestine. Here people are saying things akin to “the destruction of our palestine (the train wreck that poisoned palestine OH) was just a news cycle, the one on the other side of the world has been on the news for months.”
They need someone to blame. Taking on blame themselves for ignoring voters? That’s preposterous! Those votes are clearly owed in the democracy that they’re the saviors of.
There sure are a lot of people trying to blame the left because their strategy of appealing to the middle failed.
If the left would rather have Trump than a centrist Harris government, the left deserves blame
I wasn’t super fond of the democrat’s platform either man, but I definitely wanted Not Fascism and Some Semblance of Human Rights to win.
Now we have nothing, and I have to make plans to figure out how to get my girlfriend out of the country if she ever needs reproductive care. Great job!
A party that insists we have to support genocide is already fascist and has no regard for human rights except to use as bargaining chips to get votes. Sorry.
Egocentrism is a defining American quality.
?
Your point?
Well yeah, otherwise they’d have to consider actually changing their shit strategy
Even after all this the DNC are already bowing down to the fascist position because they lost because they were “too woke”.
This is when the democrats were already running a far right platform of “we want to fund the police, not defund them”, following Trump’s border policy, “most lethal army”, “Israel must expand its borders”, “I’ll have a Republican in my cabinet”. And they weren’t “woke” at all. Kamala threw trans people in the trash saying “we’ll follow the law” when it comes to trans issues. It was the Republicans who were running hundreds of millions of dollars worth of attack ads on trans people and democrats weren’t saying shit.
The DNC have once again failed to learn and are looking for a “centrist” chair, doing exactly the same thing of shutting down leftist voices and trying to appeal to and compromise with the fascists instead of listening to people like Bernie and AOC.
You’d think after they utterly failed and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and get an out and proud fascist elected they would finally learn that they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
The ratchet effect is real.
The Republican critique of the democrats is kind of right in a way in that they are just the same rich people not doing anything about the cost of living and only using identity politics to “virtue signal”. They’re right wingers with rainbow flags. That doesn’t do much for oppressed minorities except make us the target of attacks. What would benefit queer and other oppressed minorities more is build a society in which we can afford homes to live in, food to eat, access to healthcare. But they want to make it all about pronouns because that is easy for them to look like they’re someone “on the left”, when economically they’re not on the left at all.
There’s really no hope with the DNC. We just need to organize in our own communities because the democrats certainly aren’t coming to save anyone.
Idk. I’m sure the cheneys endorsement brought out dozens of voters.
There sure are a lot of people that didn’t do jack shit and think they have a place to blame anyone.
Canadian, voted for left wing party that had the best chance of winning despite the leader being a gilded spoon brat who couldn’t lead his way out of a wet paper bag.
I did my fucking part. All you wannabe progressives in the US had to do was vote to keep the Nazi out of office and you couldn’t even do that.
American. Voted for Harris. I think you responded to the wrong person.
That was in general to the people who “held back their vote” to “teach the Democrats a lesson”. The kind of people who don’t realize that the luxuries the west has were hard fought and think they will always be there.
Ahh. Gotcha. Well said, friend from the not too distant north!
And what has the liberal party done with your vote? Next year is going to be a fucking disaster. The strategy of voting for the least bad option doesn’t work when the least bad option keeps getting worse. You can bleat at people to vote for the one party over and over again, but eventually enough people just give up or get desperate for any chance at change and think that voting for the other party will at least shake things up.
I voted for the NDP.
Federally the Loberals are the centrists led by the gilded spoon spoiled brat who couldn’t lead his way out of a wet paper bag. But he is fantastic at speeches.
The same NDP that doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell at getting power nationally? Again, next year is going to be a disaster.
Couldn’t have said it better. This post is pure cringe but the op is a perfect example of why Democrats lost.
Naaah. What’s cringe are the smug pseudo-intellectual “trolley problem” gEnOciDe accusers that didn’t do shit but sit on their thumbs while the rest of us tried to save democracy.
Now they all get to blame the people that acted while smugly admitting that they chose not to?
An estimated 90 million people chose not to vote. Of those 90 million were third party supporting clowns that chose not to vote because they knew their candidate didn’t stand a chance. Also among those 90 million were protest-voting clowns that chose not to vote because their last two remaining brain cells were too busy fighting over third place.
There is ZERO logic or intelligence in accusing the people that actually tried and did something to avoid a shitty outcome while arrogantly having not done jack shit about it.
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So you tried saving democracy by… doing nothing and in the end, everyone lost. And I don’t recall ever supporting genocide, mentioning anything even remotely supportive of genocide, or even so much as hinting at that possibility of being an okay thing to do for any reason.
I say she relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and democracy. They couldn’t even come out for that.
Abortion rights initiatives won in 7 out of 10 states where they were on the ballot.
And got 57% in FL, but needed 60% to pass
Fuck national rights amiright.
Their main failure was choosing a half black, half Indian women as their candidate. That in it self is 3 failures. You can have ONE of those things. 2 is highly improbable, 3 is impossible.
This has nothing to do with how I think Harris will perform as president but more to do with how racist and misogynistic this country is.
I truly thing Walz would have done better at the polls.
Her rallies were massive and she was polling 10%+ ahead of Trump when she was seen as progressive.
When she went full blue dog and parroted the same strategy Clinton failed with in 2016, the advantage evaporated and she started polling at or under Trump.
Falsely attributing the failure to misogyny solves nothing.
Rallies don’t turn into voters apparently.
More importantly, they stopped talking about rally size when she went blue dog.
The pictures I’ve seen of both sides’ October rallies looked about the same, very different from her earlier massive rallies.
But if it isn’t the progressives then it must be men’s fault, black people’s fault, Muslim people’s fault while being the fault of racists, misogynists and Islamiaphobes.
Or you could blame the party instead of the voters.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. John Fetterman would have won easily. Americans pick based on appearance.
Ah yes, another centrist. That will surely work this time.
Centrist is a label based on a candidate’s position on issues.
I claim that doesn’t matter. Image matters.
Fetterman is a large white male that makes Trump look weak. That’s all that matters.
Trump can’t even run again
??? This is about the election that just happened.
I’d say they vote based on matching identities “(s)he’s like me”.
They should be so happy to have achieved what they voted for. This is their utopia too and they deserve to enjoy the fruits of their single-principle voting as well.
When they see people sick and poor with no support or hope, young girls risking life and limb to bear the children of their rapists, rotting infrastructure and a rampant xenophobic kleptocracy, they need to stand and say “I helped make this happen!”
Be proud of the utopia you helped build by voting for the Russian agent; either one.
You are talking about Gaza right
Amazingly, nobody’s happy that the dems decided to sacrifice the whole country rather than budge on exterminating the Palestinians.
I mean, Kamala really wanted Republicans in the white house with her. I bet she’s elated to see how many will be in there now.
The Democratic party or a campaign can’t fail, they can only be failed, right OP?
Two things can be bad.
The Democrats clearly didn’t figure out how to win in the reality we have, with the voters we have. They should definitely figure out what they could have done better.
The people who didn’t vote for Harris deserve all shame they can get. It was not a hard choice. It shouldn’t have been even close.
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In this thread: morally superior busybodies absolutely malding and calling OP an enlightened centrist for making fun of them
That is quite the projection given this entire post is morally superior dnc shills scolding the stupid drooling masses for their own parties historic failure.
But Alas, you’ve drawn yourself as the Chad and everyone else as the soyjack with this comment and thus can receive no criticism
it’s a lemmy classic
And the genocide just worsens, with another soon in Ukraine
Had nothing to do with it… or at least insignificantly. The Dems on a platform of “were not him” and the economy is booming… while people where hurting and got shafted by the wave of devaluation… people are angry… and the let’s keep going on the same path and change nothing and so nothing party did not get people out to vote.
It’s possible the idea that they ran a “not Trump” campaign is true enough, and that was part of the failure vs. being more to the left or vocal or any number of other things suggested. But the very fact that “not Trump” made people not show up and throw the election to him, or worse vote FOR him, says a lot about the state of the country.
I get it, people are hurting economically and somehow get blinded into promises that magic will happen. But Trump? Anyone voting this time around was around when he was in office the first time…are we that short memory? Yeah, we apparently are…repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results. And that can be applied to both sides, but one of them was the same guy.
Why? America is the country of fuck around and find out. There where no consequences, no prison time, no perp walk… there was no find out… so by extension… there must not have been a fuck around. It must have been a lot of Dems acreetching about stuff but no actual smoke or fire.
I think you, someone who probably keeps up on the news and outrage and etc. are overestimating how much others do.
People are absorbed in their day to day life. Trump’s gonna appoint RFK to a health leadership position? That’s a far away concept with only vague implications for people who are having to take payday loans for the first time to make rent. Harris didn’t truly run a campaign of hope and change like '08 Obama.
Exactly… were not going back… to when we could afford rent?
The 2024 presidential election was like a really hairy credit card bill. Republicans ran on a platform of ignoring the debt all together and not making any payment at all, letting it get further out of hand. Democrats got blasted for proposing to make a minimum payment that did nothing toward interest. Neither choice was going to get us out of debt. But one of the choices is definitely going to bankrupt us. We could have made a payment. Now we’re in way over our head instead.
Well it appears they’ll never figure that out and intend to lose more so in 4 more years.
Trump will have had 4 years to Putin up America by then. I’m not sure elections will matter any more by then. This is all just academic.
“Democrats lost because of this out that… They’ll never learn…” “Trump won because of that…”
Who fucking cares anymore? The fascists are in charge now.
So if the fascist are in charge does that mean you just give up? No resistance? No civil war? Just hand America over to the fascists?
… No resistance? No civil war?
Who’s going to be on my side? Trump won the popular vote. Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause? Who would I fight with and what in the fuck are we even fighting for?
I’ll be in the fight anyway, as soon as there actually is one, but Americans will need to wake the fuck up before that’s possible.
Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause?
All that needed be said on the subject.
Isn’t that what you did when you chose not to vote?
Maybe pick a candidate that people want to vote for next time
You vote based on the choices you’re presented, not the ones you like. Like it or not a no vote is a vote one way or another.
Your comment highlights the tension between idealism and realism when it comes to voting.
Ideally, everyone would vote based on the choices they’re given. But in the real world, human behavior is messy—especially in an electorate like America’s, where civic education is weak and collective action is a foreign concept to many. It’s not surprising that “lesser evil” voting and the idea of keeping a genocide on simmer failed to compel a minority of voters who chose to abstain.
Do I blame nonvoters? Sure, to an extent—maybe 49%. But realism forces me to direct most of the blame at the Democratic Party, which has spent the last eight years repeatedly folding to Trump’s every authoritarian move. Until they address their own complicity, they’ll continue to bear the larger share of responsibility for this broken dynamic.
You mean like Shill Stein? Or do you mean that other do-nothing that no one can remember because they’ve done nothing?
I’m just guessing here but they probably don’t mean a candidate who got less than 1% of the vote. I’m not sure why that’s where you went right away.
“Their votes alone didn’t swing the election” and “Their actions were the opposite of helpful in preventing genocide” can both be true.
Can it?
If their votes didn’t swing the election, how were they harmful? Or whatever you mean by “the opposite of helpful”?
This is like saying “my vote doesn’t matter, it’s not like the candidate I would have voted for lost by a single vote”
Their actions were the opposite of helpful in preventing genocide
This is true for people who voted for Harris, not third party
I guess kudos for staying on your sinking ship long after the rats have left. You’re at least consistent
Yeah… that amazingly helpful 0.7%
The people that was the opposite of helping prevent genocide were Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. That is the truth.
Well now you have Trump who will commit additional genocides within our domestic borders on top of all the complete eradication he will directly fund outside of our borders. you definitely showed them libs!
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Because I am not so blinded by my own self-centered, egotistical view of moral purity as to throw away my vote on retaining civilian rights.
Because we live in the real world where we recognize that Trump or Harris were going to be the next president, and Harris’ ambiguity on Gaza and susceptibility to pressure from Democrat voters is, while not ideal, still better than Trump’s open lust for Muslim blood and complete indifference to what pro-palestinian voters want.
Name one candidate that was for it.
I still see them around. But it will be really quiet in January and February.
