Basically don’t update existing games & stop using Unity completely & you’re good.
No, Unity is still saying they want a cut of old games if they’re ever newly installed.
And this clause will give unity some fun lawsuits for those old versions
I’m really hoping some of the bigger Unity devs, like the people that made Rust or Among Us sue, as most of us don’t have enough money to even stand a chance in court against Unity’s lawyers…especially once they have all that nice runtime money to spend. 😒
Thinking small there, there are several Unity games published by big dick AAA corps.
Like Hearthstone, most of Kings catalog, the Doom ports were wrapped in Unity. Plus there’s a lot of Unity games on Gamepass and that’s Xbox 's bread and butter right now so Microsoft could just slap the shit out of em or just buy em out entirely (might be smart just for the King purchase itself).
My guess is that AAA developers will just negotiate individual contracts that are more favorable for the developers. They’re not going to sue when they can just work out a special deal.
I really don’t want you to be right, but I’m super convinced that you are.
god I hate how right you are here
I’ve seen the “Microsoft should just buy Unity” argument a lot lately. And while I think it’s probably a better management than current, I imagine Microsoft is hesitant having only just come out of a, what, 6 month long legal battle in US and EU courts regarding acquisition of ActiBliz? So a good idea, but one I can imagine might not happen…
I honestly don’t think MS really wants to own Unity. Like, sure, there’s a small amount of synergy because some of their games use it, but owning Unity also means committing resources to support and improve it and competing with Unreal to an extent.
If anyone would be interested in buying Unity I’d think it’d be a Chinese corp like Tencent or NetEase or else a publisher that works with a lot of indies like Devolver or maybe Embracer.
Yeah, it kind of sucks that Microsoft being an even bigger unstoppable monopoly would have actually helped in these instances… at least in the short term… hopefully something less future terrible comes along to solve the short term problems instead at least.
Microsoft gaming is not even an industry leader, much less a monopoly.
Honestly, framing it like that makes me think this could be like a shithead move to try and force their hand to do that.
Come up with terms so shitty that your business model gets fucked over, but the big fish who has come to RELY on your business gets fucked over more, therefore making them want to eliminate you to Unfuck their business…
This is what I think. It kinda comes off as extortion.
Well yesterday, Unity decided they were gonna get Sony and Nintendo and Microsoft to pay the fees for smaller studios (lmao wat).
I don’t think Unity understands exactly how many top-tier lawyers those companies are going to bring to the table in the interest of legally curbstomping then.
Maybe that’s the point. Unity caves immediately to the big lawyers and says “Sorry guys, we tried. Looks like all you little studios will have to pay up after all. Blame Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft”
And then their customers sue the ever loving fuck out of Unity and win, because they’re not only looking at breach of contract, but also monopolistic and predatory business practices (they were basically forcing smaller studios to switch from a competitor mobile analytics platform to their in house platform). Either Unity’s exec suite didn’t consult the lawyers, like, at all… or their legal team should be disbarred. Unity is fucked unless they do a complete 180 and clean out the C-suite.
It doesn’t seem like they are thinking that far ahead. Or if that was the plan it’s really not working out.
Does this mean that the “Report on install” feature is already in the old release? It’s a reasonable feature to already have, I assume Unity gives you a handful of statistics “for free” as part of using the engine.
However there is a difference between “installs” the number and “installs” the billing number. A website might have 1,000 page views. So 1,000 users? Well we need unique page views. What makes a page view unique? What if someone visits your website but leaves after 2 seconds, do we count those?
In addition to being a terrible decision I don’t think the company is prepared at all for this decision.
No, they have some magical “proprietary method” for determining those, with additional hand-waving for not counting “illegitimate” installs. Translation: they pull these numbers out of their ass, fuck you.
A pre-sale cut could be considered “reasonable” since there’s a paper trail with real numbers that basically everyone can agree on. Unity is just trying to muddy the waters.
“y’know, maybe Reddit and Twitter are on to something”
-Unity CEO, probablyMaybe a tiktok challenge for rich people?
Company bankruptcy speedrun any% no hacks
Egomaniac Category
Reddit, Twitter, Google, Twitch, Meta, you name it, they’re all having to find new ways to make money now that the decade-long bullrun of low interest rates and endless VC money is over.
“Your right Gary! The best way to endear our current users to us AND make more money is to take a big, heaping, smelly shit right into their mouths. While they are coping with that amazing gift we’ll just sneak off with their wallets. BAM! Money motherfucker!”
Looks like 2023 will be remembered as the year of big size enshittification. So many companies going to shit. Reddit with restricting API access, Twitter with…everything really, Google with its DRM and now Unity…great year so far, right?
Lmao when you’re trying to turn your company into a bloodsucking vampire but you forgot that long ago, you told your lawyer to chain the coffin in case this very thing happened.
Fuck Spez… oh wait…
Seriously, tech enshittiffication is feeling all too familiar.
Facebook (a long time ago), Twitter, Reddit, Google (they even removed the don’t be evil modo), now Unity. Apple being Apple… Arduino going closed source, Raspberry Pi becoming for profit. Samsung, at least never ever even tried to look nice.
Seems we’re in a time where the hopeful are hopeless so the greedy take charge
It’s a time where the kings are pulling as hard as they can on their rope until the day it breaks and their heads start flying. The people can be stepped on but only for so long.
Let’s hope it’s not too late when we revolt
It will be too late.
what happened with raspberry pi?
I mis expressed myself. I meant the price gouge of that last few years.
deleted by creator
“Hey bro, let’s go check out those sirens over there. I swear, bro… just plug your ears with wax and tie me to the bow. Bro, it’ll be so epic.”
Sirens arrive
“Bro, why the fuck did you tie me down?? Smash this goddamn boat against the rocks!”
Perfect analogy, just wanted to say I took this as air sirens at first at it did not make sense lol
Quick shoutout to my prehistorical homies for passing down only the choicest and most salient of allegories. We meme on the shoulders of giants.
I wish we could get names of the teams that decided this was a good idea. I’d love to hear their side
I want to know who hired that fucking CEO and put him up to purposefully tank Unity.
This can’t be anything less than a blatant attempt to destroy a company so who would have a vested interest in destroying Unity? It can’t just be for money.
Sadly, there often comes a time when a critical mass of the business leaders decide “you know what, I want to cash out and no matter how disastrous this will be long term, I think short term this will milk some revenue out of some captive audience”.
In the IT industry, that time is usually when Broadcom buys you.
You’ve hurt me right in the vSphere.
What a lot of people at these companies don’t understand is that other options existing means people will find a way to continue without you… The more that happens, the larger the community… the faster you fail.
When Broadcom announced buying VMWare, literally all the IT subreddits in unison looked for other alternatives. We’re on Proxmox now, it’s been a better product than VMWare in literally every way.
It’s also called the trust thermocline. Once a certain level of exploitation is reached, customers leaving suddenly goes very quickly and usually unrecoverable. The straw that breaks the camel’s back.
Or in the case of unity, you smash the poor camel with a baseball bat and are very surprised it tries to bite you.
And this is why we shouldn’t have monopolies. People shouldn’t be held hostage by one or two companies. When they go full stupid like Unity is, the customers grumble, shrug, and get to work with a different system.
Or not just monopolies, but companies in general have a dictatorship authoritarian structure where the c-suite has all the decision making power and employees or customers can go fuck themselves. Corporations should be made for the people by the people.
Aligning power over systems with stackholders impacted by those systems is usually good for avoiding hostile incentives which result in hurting people, yes. Plus to some it might axiomatically be morally good.
I’m forced to use VMware for cisco classes.
Sounds a bit odd… What networking class requires VM platform usage?
If I teach a class that needs a vm, I’m making damned sure everyone uses the same type.
The vm has “tools” preloaded and helps students experiment with configurations that don’t end up causing the host computer to be badly configured. The host PCs are pretty restrictive and have no admin privileges. The VM is fully capable of being “free to mess with” in a sense. The idea behind it is to prevent unauthorized bad actions on the host pc. Creating a separation of students’ abilities behind a vm. You can use your own PC, but that is cumbersome and unnecessary. The “forced to” is a bit loose, but it helps students start from a state where the teacher can help guide the students to what to do.
Good thing you’re not a teacher then!
Edit: LMFAO the downvotes are astounding! So let’s make students install VMWare… Who’s gunna pay for that? It’s funny because I actually did work full time lecturing in an R1 institution in several classes that required virtualization. It’s really not hard to publish different images for all the major vm platforms.
Assuming this is college, requiring students to pay for software is part of the norm.
AdvancedAlgorithmicLigmaBalls201
I remember at the time that a presentation circulated on a previous Broadcom acquisition, as a preview of what was in store for vmware. I never saw analagous material for vmware exactly, and I can’t remember what Broadcom acquisition it was.
Their analysis was that they predicted their changes would kill off any new business, and kill off 80% of the existing customer base. However, this was fine as the other 20% was so stuck that they could charge more than 5x to make up for it, and all without spending any money on R&D and reducing customer support load.
While I know nothing of the numbers… This was my understanding of it as well. That they’d make probably just as much if not more money because of the captive groups.
However, while they might be captive now… Doesn’t mean they’ll be captive forever. VMWare is going to lose the entire market over this very rapidly, then the rest slowly after.
Indeed. However all the key people making this call will have made a few million off the husk on the way down, and will have moved on to drain the next company.
In the software side of IT, this is usually when you start seeing layoffs and a mass replacement of talented developers with bottom-of-the-barrel offshore contractors. Beware the following fail cascade.
Kicked me right in the Reddit.
That’s what everyone is saying but this policy will only cost them from lawsuits, so it can’t just be about money.
It will cost them in future earnings… Companies won’t want to work on their platform if these policies are still in place… and many will never want to work with them again since they’ve shown their hand.
That is what makes me think there’s something more to this.
I think rival companies might groom CEOs that get hired by their competitors but whom, secretly, are paid by the rivals to destroy the companies from within.
Perhaps I’m wrong but that’s the only explanation I’ve been able to come up with that makes any sense to me.
The CEOs don’t need to be paid by other companies. All a competing company needs to do, is to convince some company’s board members to hire a CEO with a track record that they know will tank the company… maybe through indirect lobbying, maybe by hinting they want to hire them because it’s “such a valuable CEO”… and bam!
CEO ruins company, then bails on a golden parachute, and you only had to spend whatever it took to mislead the competing board.
(I’ve seen it done to tiny companies with as few as 20 workers, it’s surprisingly easy to convince a board to hire someone who will destroy everything)
What’s the point to do this ?
To destroy the competition.
How does one insulate a company from corrupted CEOs?
Technically that’s what a board of directors is for. They are the ones who can axe a CEO and hire another.
Oh, plenty of business “geniuses” make some pretty boneheaded moves, especially when they feel a need to try to produce huge growth after saturating a market, or if their business results somehow fall short of some need (either actually losing money, or some arbitrary self-imposed “goal” not being hit).
Currently there’s an epidemic of businesses making some pretty dubious long term decisions for the sake of trying to prop up numbers amidst a receding market reality. Recessions are, in part, a self-fulfilling prophecy, where whatever impetus exists, it’s exacerbated by every participant screwing things up further.
Its the same ethos of those CEOs that are demanding everyone must return to the office. No ifs, or buts.
They damage moral which takes years to build up, they further announce layoffs which destroys whatever moral was left.
These idiots never seem to be held accountable.
Honestly, these management types need to be case studied.
We have to start holding them accountable ourselves, because the system sure ain’t gonna do it.
Yeah, it’s looking like 1776 time.
He’s a VC CEO, he’s there to pump the company for everything it’s worth for maximum stock returns.
I just checked the stock ticker for Unity and it fucking tanked. So that can’t be it.
No one said they were good at their job
I wouldn’t put it past them to short their own stock while they make announcements then go long once things settle down…
How the fuck is that even legal?
It isn’t. That would be Insider Trading.
But it doesn’t stop people from trying (and sometimes getting away with) it.
Even though this is bad and many developers won’t want to use Unity, I think there still may be enough devs that will comply and generate more profit.
If you were at the start of your journey right now and were trying my decide between Unity, Unreal or any other tool… Would you be choosing Unity?
Let’s hope not. We can’t be complicit in our own subjugation any longer.
Maybe it grew too big or the wrong way for their taste? Good reason to fire a few hundred and restructure.
It is Big Godot pulling the strings to entice people to jump ship to their free and open source game engine. The plan is dastardly, but effective. Can’t use other game engines if there are no other engines left standing.
You know, if Godot was actually a for-profit endeavor, I probably would believe you.
Removed by mod
It can’t just be for money.
Lol (litterally)
this means that if Unity sends you a bill, you don’t have to pay it, and if they take you to court, you prove that you’re acting within the terms of the license you agreed to, which keeps your lawyer fees to a manageable level because you already have all the documents you need: the contract and your source code.
I mean right? IANAL.
If it affects your rights then yes. It’s not just that they’re sending a bill. For example, if it is illegal to change a TOS to suddenly charge for something that wasn’t in your jurisdiction then it’s probably affecting “your rights”.
Even then, it only says the current calendar year. They’re making the pricing change on January 1st, right? If so then you’re probably out of luck.
Hm… does that mean that if you download Unity right now, you can use it until you can no longer stand the bugs?
No, because if you download it right now, you’ll be agreeing to the current terms which no longer gives you permission to ignore new terms as they are released.
Up until now, you could continue using the old engine and never agree to newer terms, and that would be defensible in court. Now, even if you do not update and do not click agree, they will still take you to court and send you a bill, which you probably will have to pay.
I believe they actually deleted that clause back in April. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20230914135511/https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16hnibp/unity_silently_removed_their_github_repo_to_track/?rdt=38154
So it was planned for a while… oh well.
Use what, Unity or the ToS? Assuming you meant the ToS under the old version you could stop using an updated ToS only if it violated your rights. (Which is such a weird thing to even mention, if a contract violated your rights then it probably already doesn’t apply.) You can stop using Unity whenever you want though because you have free will. Not trying to be sassy about that last point, just explaining why I think I misunderstood you lol.
Yeah, I thought the ToS hadn’t changed yet, but it seems like the “no upgrade” clause already got removed in April. I guess their move is to try and force anyone with more than the max revenue/installs to upgrade to a higher subscription to get the lower royalty tier… and lock them in there, because what if you stop paying the subscription? Do you fall to the free version royalty tier? Quite a dick move.
You cannot update to a modern version of unity, or install any unity version anymore technically. I think bc they outline the ability to use the license without updating versions you should be okay.
IANAL
iVaginal
Pussy
So basically unity wants money even for games made on their engine before this shitty update. All older versions of games with older versions of unity are eligible to be monetized. Forget ethical, how is that even legal?
Unity, I hope you die. Sorry to all the Devs who put their soul into developing it.
That’s what I thought also. I mean they could legally also add that for every instalation of an old game the developer would have to send nude pics to Unity CEO?
Yup. Totally normal. It is part of the user agreement. We just aren’t aware of it yet.
If those were the terms you signed, those are the terms that matter.
But do the terms you signed say they are allowed to change the terms at any time with notice?
They can change the terms, but if you don’t sign the new terms then you have never accepted the new terms.
For some reason, companies think they can write anything into their terms and think it matters. It doesn’t. Most contracts aren’t worth the paper it’s written on.
“By continuing to use the software, you agree to the new terms…” which is, of course, hogwash, but wouldn’t stop them from say “Sorry, the new terms were released and you agreed, so pay up.”
Depends on how long your license is for. If you have a 1 year license and they change the terms, you are going to have to sign new terms for the next year’s license.
The terms can say that your firstborn shall be sacrificed to an Eldritch Deity by accepting them, but that doesn’t mean it’s enforceable.
I mean, in this economy, what’s one first-born even worth?
$10?
Enforcability is one of the major issues, and why companies try so hard to keep issues like this from the courts.
Tell that to the Eldritch deity.
Sure, but they also say you can use an old version if you prefer the old terms. Basically, that if they update the terms, it’ll only apply to the current/future versions.
So just stop using the current version. Just use the old version which still has the old terms. You never agreed to the new terms, and under the terms you agreed to, you can continue to use the old terms.
That poses an interesting question. If they can change the terms, and say that you agree to the changes by continuing to use their software, and they remove the clause allowing you to use the previous agreement, then can you use the previous agreement? It’s a bit of a buried shovel problem. Have you agreed to not use a previous agreement by continuing to use the software, or can you stick to the old agreement that lets you use the old agreement?
Yes that is what the post you commented on says But they also say you can use an old version if you don’t like the changed terms.
Typically terms of service can and will be updated and if you don’t object to them you’re deemed to have accepted them.
Many people will be familiar with emails entitled “your terms of service have changed” or “updates to your terms of service”
Can someone help me understand? Maybe my understanding of contracts is too simple but in this example:
I’ve developed and published a unity game. The game is complete and will receive no future updates from me, but will remain on sale for the foreseeable future.
My understanding of the current situation is that unity is somehow claiming these new terms will apply to my game. But I don’t see how that’s feasible. Shouldn’t my relationship with unity be at an end as the product was completed? Would I have to de-list my completed game to avoid charges? How is that legal?
The game is complete and will receive no future updates from me, but will remain on sale for the foreseeable future.
That’s the sticking point. A game could be complete, and receiving no material updates, but still need to be “updated”. Sometimes the app stores require a re-compile and you will be bound by the new terms.
In the worst cases, a highly played but low earning game (like Flappy Bird) requires a recompile to update the minimum API level it supports in the Google play store. There are no gameplay changes what-so-ever. If you don’t re-compile and update it, Google will de-list the game. But you also can’t submit the update unless you accept the new terms.
Well… I look forward to using Unity’s replacement…
All this talk about development has made me want to dip my toes into it. Is there anywhere you can download free to use art and models? Is there somewhere I should start reading before just jumping in. (Trying to RTFMS before building I guess)
Honestly, just jump in and start making something, either following a tutorial and/or referencing the docs as you go. As for free assets, maybe try the creative commons website? Just make sure to adhere to the terms of any license that you use.
Is there an easy thing to start with? I was thinking of doing something solitaire or tetris related to start with, just because I assume there is tons of guides and stuff to copy for something that old and ubiquitous. While I can still heavily edit the appearance and other aspects of the game.
So is this something that all companies deal with? For example:
If Google builds an app with an embedded library that costs a license fee, and the company that offered that license decides to raise is price by 10x for future versions and they only give 3 months warning. Now my app has to go without security updates or suddenly be subject to extreme charges. But I don’t have enough time to completely rewrite my app either.
I find it hard to believe companies would leave this sort of thing up to chance. If AWS suddenly decided to 100x it’s price structure would that actually fly legally? If so, why don’t they?
Unity has had over a decade to establish itself as the main game engine. They have passed the growth phase and are now in the exploitation phase.
AWS and Azure are currently in the growth phase. They charge more for worse performance than self hosting and traditional third party hosting, but it’s close enough execs on the hype train are switching as fast as possible so as not to be left behind by their peers. Once they have destroyed traditional hosting options, they will absolutely move into the exploitation phase and pull this same move, and the ramifications will be much greater than just gaming.
If this is true, they’re really screwed. No one is gonna use the new versions.
Well good luck to Unity in fighting massive games like FGO or Genshin.
Wait, is Genshin made with Unity?
Yup
Nintendo lawyers:omau wa mou shindieru
Internet archive is awesome
I’m so scared for the Silksong developers right now.
My faith is unshakable.
I am an ardent worshipper of the holy SHAW and shall continue praying even more devoutly for the second coming of our lord and savior Hornet.
Oh god I didn’t even think about Silksong D:
Fuckin hell, one of my favourite game was about to ditch flash (yea I know lol) for Unity and then that. They invested tons of money, idk what will happen
Bro’s over here still keeping his neopets fed.
What’s the game?
His favourite game
Dammit! That one! Right
I love my favourite game!
No, it’s his favourite game
Oh. I hate that one.
Come on, it’s good
Not a game dev but I’ve had interest in using Unity for machine learning. I’m now trying out Godot since it does have quite a few ML libraries and it seems to be maintained better than Unity’s ml-agents.
Unity-ml-agents is quite a hassle to deal with but a few months ago I wasn’t able to find any altrrnatives. At least one good thing that came out of this is that I learned that there is an alternative to using Unity now.
I’m pretty sure there are open source alternatives to this?
Anybody care to shine some light on which projects would be comparable, and how they stack up against unity?
Godot, it’s the most mature of the bunch. It’s a little different than Unity, but it’s definitely very user friendly, really powerful and has an active community.
Godot feels nicer to work in than Unity. The object model is better designed and more intuitive. I hope this gives Godot a big boost.
Godot is probably the best choice for open source game engines. Its got funding and full time developers working on it.
Stride3D is probably the closest open source clone of Unity. It was developed by Silicon Studio as a commercial game engine but they eventually stopped and open sourced it. Its got a ton of modern features including vulkan and direct x 12 support. It has an active community too, but no full time staff making new features.
There is, unreal besides being a product has its source available and Godot focus on the same niche most of unity games were. But the problem never was the lack of replacement, the problem is, a game with years of development on unity whould not easily switch to any alternative, they have assets from unity store, scripts made for unity, UIs using unity specific stuffs, even network protocols could be bounded with unity. Change this is an herculean task and most of the games are in barely maintenance mode, imagine a full rework. So these games should be pulled of the market and thrown in the garbage to avoid new installations.
But the problem never was the lack of replacement, the problem is, a game with years of development on unity whould not easily switch to any alternative
I read that there’s a porting tool from Unity to Godot out there. Never used it, have no idea how well it works, but that is a possible option.
Godot focus on the same niche
Not exactly, Godot is 100% free and open source, Unreal is only partially.
Edit:
I misread, the meaning is that Godot and Unity is serving the same niche, which is true. Except for those who want true Open Source, then Godot is the clear choice.
Sorry, I was trying to say that Godot gas the same niche of unity, in the sense of both are widely used for indie and small games
Sorry, I misread, I can see what you mean now. And that’s true.
I think he meant as the kind of games and Devs that use both tools. They broadly fit the same niche
Yes, you are right, after reading again I can see that.
deleted by creator
Coders cost money and coding takes time.
This is true for most of software out there, but most of the game industry operates with a small margin, and when you look to games individually, most of the games that are still selling (think about GoG games) are not worth any developer time
The most valuable thing is an experienced team who thoroughly understand both the specifications and the implementation as well as the reasoning behind both. Written specifications are great as onboarding and reference material but there will always be gaps between the specifications and the code. (“The map is not the territory.”) Even with solid specifications you can’t just turn over maintenance of a codebase to a new team and expect them to immediately be productive with it.
Godot Engine is a nice alternative.
