- cross-posted to:
- enoughmuskspam@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- enoughmuskspam@lemmy.world
This happened in Toronto on October 24th
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Explain to me how the engineers aren’t guilty of manslaughter?
Look, I lasted one semester at engineering school, washed all the way out almost immediately. I still had to write a 10-page case study on an engineering failure, and the one I chose was the McDonnell-Douglas DC-10 cargo door failures. They teach this shit in failing community colleges in purple states. The buck stops with the PE that signed the plans. Drag his ass into criminal court. The person who allowed this design to go to production does not need to be free.
They won’t because this would require a trial where rich people wouldn’t benefit, which is a waste of government resources, which goes against the Department of Government Efficiency’s goals. More efficient to throw these poor souls’ families under the bus.
The people who design the Tesla cars are not engineers. They’re a bunch of tech geeks who think they’re engineers.
I mean, ask yourself this why is. Every single automobile that exists today with the exception of the Tesla can handle rain and car washes with absolutely no issues and yet Teslas have to have a special button to close off certain parts of the car so that the air intake doesn’t get too wet otherwise the car ends up stinking horribly of mildew.
The people who design the Tesla cars are not engineers. They’re a bunch of tech geeks who think they’re engineers.
There is still someone’s signature.
If needed, liquidate company.
I think the company is going to liquefy itself once the subsidy that made them profitable dries up completely.
Where’s the Safety FMEA! Show me the FMEA!
Risk 3452.7: feature, door. Function, opens during fire, failure mode: won’t open during fire, trapping people inside. Cause: the darn things are electronic! So if the battery fails in a big ass fire with people inside, those fuckers are gonna cook real good! Engineering controls in place to prevent the failure mode: 200,000 units delivered in time! As in it took time to deliver the units. Risk rank: 😉 it’s Frank! 😄 My name’s Frank! Not rank!
Well I’m glad we took time to mitigate these risks.
Meanwhile, actual autonomous vehicle companies actually perform FMEDA.
There are no PEs signing off on “consumer products,” or even little things like airplanes.
(Seriously, PEs are only relevant in engineering fields where design is easily governed by standards, such as HVAC and civil.)
There are absolutely engineers (with or without PE licenses, I’m not sure if that’s necessary in aerospace) signing off on airplanes, even after they’re built. For a mechanic to make a major modification or repair to an airframe or power plant it needs to be approved somehow, either covered by the airplane’s original Type Certificate and detailed in the maintenance manual, covered in a supplemental type certificate (STC), or they can work with an aeronautical engineer to design and approve the repair. I have forgotten the exact line between “you can get an A&P IA to approve this skin patch plate” and “You need to either call an AE to design a repair for this but it might be cheaper to buy a whole wing.”
I have a degree in aeronautical engineering, but I’m not a PE. It’s a very specific license in the US that isn’t applicable outside of a few engineering disciplines. There are no statutory requirements for a PE to sign off on a car or plane design; their safety is governed by other means.
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I heard Teslas are supposed to have manual release latches inside.
In any case, doors should always be manual anyway. This isn’t the first time this happened and I’m surprised there isn’t a regulation for this yet.
If we investigated car accidents like we did plane accidents we’d probably have banned them by now.
We’d probably have high speed rail too instead of a vast expanse of highways
Investigators arrive on scene. Immediately notice how the infrastructure was designed for gridlock rush hour where nothing is moving. Are appalled that the only safety training the motorists received was completed 20 years ago and never refreshed. Dismayed that these circumstances are permitted in densely populated areas.
They do have manual release latches, but if you have never used them they might be hard to find. Especially in the panic of a burning car.
Really vehicle electronic doors should operate the same way they (usually?) do in buildings - in case of power loss they default to unlatched.
Power loss isn’t necessarily a good choice even in a traditional ICE car with a battery, let alone one with a bigass EV battery.
Because it makes it super easy to break into a car (pop the hood and unplug two connectors) AND very likely will remain charged throughout much of the fire.
No. The answer is you have fucking manual locks and door handles that don’t require you to pry open a panel.
The article says that some Model Ys don’t have a manual release on the rear doors. Can’t imagine how that passes any country’s safety standards.
$$$
Yikes, that is wildly irresponsible
Have you looked at teslas manual for the back doors. Some are behind panels that have to be removed. You are not doing that well burying alive.
The BMW manual door release is pulling the handle twice. This kind of negligence is insane and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration should slap them with a punitive fine and a mandatory recall.
Oh Elon is definitely gonna kill that department.
The ones in the rear are hidden under a mat in the door.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-AAD769C7-88A3-4695-987E-0E00025F64E0.html
The model X requires you to remove the speaker grill to manually open the door.
You know, nice and intuitive.
Do these panels and speaker grills at least have a tooless design so they’re easy to remove if you’re aware of them? This design just sounds so dumb.
It looks like it, but they’re still hidden. If you didn’t know to look under a mat while you’re car is fire I doubt it would be easy to find.
The article also says that not all model Y have releases in the rear, so even if you know ‘well my model Y has them here’ you still might be screwed.
So glad I never had the opportunity to get a Tesla way back when I thought they were cool new tech.
and I’m surprised there isn’t a regulation for this yet.
Don’t be. Expect any existing regulations to be rolled back soon.
There definitely needs to be a way for people outside the car to open it. People involved in accidents are often incapacitated.
They do, but only in the front.
The only reason to use the button is that when you press it, it lowers the window slightly so that it clears the door trim when you open it (the windows are frameless).
Although, I don’t see why that couldn’t have been integrated into a single mechanism rather than having two separate controls for the same function.
Absolutely terrible design if the window needs to be lowered on a frameless door before it can be opened.
My 2007 Subaru Impreza had frameless windows that don’t have this problem. The window makes a pressure seal against a gasket that does not impede the operation of the door in any way.
Oh ok. Well that’s a really shitty design then!
The Elon Musk-owned automaker has a troubling history of owners getting locked in their cars without power. Some of these cases may be down to user error, since most Teslas come with manual release levers.
Of course, let’s blame the users 🙄
most Teslas come with manual release levers.
MOST?
Yea the cheapest ones skipped the manual release for the back doors. Gotta deliver maximum value to shareholders!
Now, now, remember correlation is not causation. Maybe it’s not the unintuitive design; maybe a disproportionate number of idiots buy Teslas?
In the case of the model Y referenced, this release is under a mat. You wouldn’t see it in normal operation.
In case of emergency, lift the floor mat and input the 16 digit release code.
The 16 digit code can be found in the “My Data” section on x.com, assuming your account has been linked to your vehicle.
I don’t want to be a dick but not using the mechanism to open them is user error.
But it does also sound like they aren’t very well placed in some models. I feel like the manual release being the same as any car would make sense. As a fucking standard door handle.
I assume the no power locking is an anti theft thing. But if you’re in the car already just provide a handle.
If the door can’t be opened easily in a panicked life or death situation, it’s a design flaw and needs to be recalled and fixed.
Yeah like I said they should be a standard door handle.
I will be a dick: this is one of those imbeciles teck-bro takes, always comming with excuses for big tech "but actualy… "
If you design a door handle and people cannot open it: your design is shit. Point.
This was stupid when apple did it with the ‘you’re holding the phone wrong, idiot’, it is criminal when it is done on a security feature.
That’s literally what I said
It is because people don’t get a full walk through of how to unlatch it later on…they might on delivery day but at that point people are excited about a new car and not paying attention. And then because they never use it, they forget it exists
Emergency exit mechanisms should be designed in such a way that one CAN forget about it or never even know about it, then have it obvious, readily available, and usable, all for/by the dumbest motherfucker in existence, in an emergency situation.
The most common analogous situation is emergency exit door signage. Most companies do an annual fire drill, which isn’t enough to really learn anything. Emergency exit signs are easy to interpret and anyone can understand what they mean and use them to get to safety, regardless of prior experience.
Vehicle doors should be the same. Tesla front doors tend to be easy and obvious to open in an emergency (I own one and front seat passengers frequently use the emergency latch instead of the door button), but the rear doors (for the people seated closest to the damn battery nonetheless) have ridiculously difficult emergency opening procedures.
I agree. Some people aren’t level headed in a panic scenario. They need glow in the dark arrows like the markings on jet planes pointing to the canopy release
Some? I’d say this applies to almost everyone.
I may be biased as a person that has been in a lot of scenarios where I remain levelheaded. Paramedics suggested I become one after seeing my calmness dealing with an accident scenario.
Just watch a video of how fast car fires spread into the cabin, and then ask yourself how often you asked someone how to leave a car in case of emergency before you entered.
Add panic and the fact that you have to remove a panel or look under the floor mat to pull a string away from you, and you maybe will understand how this is just bad design.
if you make something with a door and the door needs a manual, your design is shit.
Oh I know it is not good. Even my Honda Fit has a messed up lock system, its almost like a sideways roller switch without a truly discernable lock/unlock position so in tu dark you can’t tell if it is rolled forward or not. Messes us up when we are in the passenger seat and son:t have the powelock handy
So it’s not an intuitive design. A major error by itself. Since in a panic a passenger who does not know the secret is stranded inside.
My sister has a tesla, I have ridden in it, and I have no clue how to open the door without power.
I get it, my friend has ModelS. He showed me the mechanical release, when I asked about loss of power. It is not intuitive.
Opening a Rear Door with No Power
You can open a rear door manually (if equipped) in the unlikely situation in which Model Y has no power:
- Remove the mat from the bottom of the rear door pocket.
- Press the red tab to remove the access door.
- Pull the mechanical release cable forward.
Note
Not all Model Y vehicles are equipped with a manual release for the rear doors.
Opening the front doors seems easy enough in the user manual, but opening the back doors requires you to remove a hidden panel then pull a cable, but not all versions of the car even have that hidden panel. Assuming the one in this article did, the car owner would need to give a little safety briefing to every passenger if you want to expect them to know how to open the door. And I’m really not sure what you’re expected to do if you have a kid in a carseat in the back.
The backseat of a Model Y is like the world’s worst escape room
“seemingly”
Ye, it seemed like it so we just decided we’d rather burn alive than to actually try opening the door.
News titles sometimes
Fair, but at least they’re reporting it and connecting the dots re: this tesla safety issue, which I haven’t seen from any legacy media
We all know American car safety is a joke, that’s not news
What? Our new or modern cars are safe as fuck dude.
They are safer for the occupants. With their increased size, increased sound dampening, and reduced visibility, they are more dangerous to those outside of the vehicle.
Edit: my view was changed. I was wrong. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm
Oh sure, but A LOT of people don’t have to worry about that. I go from my house directly the highway for 1 hour before I get to my job. I’d rather be safer on the highway for my 2+ hours of commuting a day than the off chance some random is walking on the highway where he shouldn’t.
I’m close to 2m tall, and the hoods of the trucks I walk by on my way to work are up to my shoulders, I think things like size aren’t really helping. Naturally, maybe 1 of every 10 trucks this size appear to actually be for work.
I think a lot of the modern safety improvements are great, but just making every vehicle gigantic is doing a lot of harm.
Agreed. And having automated controls for breaking would be a magnificent leap forward. Unless the government steps in to slow down those products there isn’t anything to be done.
You can see reform starting in the form of the “Carolina squat” being outlawed in a lot of states to help alleviate some of that pain.
Literally everyone should worry about that.
Does anybody drop off their children at school? Do they cross the street? Do they travel?
Pedestrian hostile cars are an everybody issue.
Come on. Yes I agree with you but obviously you know that there is nuance to that issue just as others. We aren’t talking about gun control.
For now.
When the Trump administration is done gutting the NHTSA, not so much.
There’s more to safety than having the biggest or fanciest car. It’s road design, rules, speed, training, etc.
With the skills of an average American driver you wouldn’t get your license in some countries.
Yea! Most of us are fucking horrible at driving. Automated processes for safety make us lazier too.
Our road design is pretty well done but the speed/training is fucking atrocious.
Worried about libel, it is very likely that someone like Musk would sue.
If they said “It was the fault of Tesla that these people are dead” without proof and without it being a quote from someone else, they can be sued pretty easily.
Authorities are still investigating the crash and fire. But the details that we have so far implicate to some degree the electronic doors used by Tesla and other automakers, which require power to open.
I’d like to see Tesla do that because afterwards the court of public opinion will eat them alive!
Further investigation shows that three of the four had recently posted mean things about Elon Musk on Xitter. A representative from the company issued the following statement. “It is unfortunate that the fourth passenger, who was seemingly innocent of blasphemy, chose to associate with the guilty parties. Sometimes collateral damage has to occur in our attempt to cleanse the population.”
It would be crazy sci-fi villian if Musk had mobile access to everyone’s Tesla and he is just killing off customers he doesn’t like by doing shit like refusing to unlock the doors.
I mean if there’s electronics that control the speed and steering he could just force people to drive straight into a wall at full speed
As if this is hard to believe…
Why isn’t there a manual mechanism for the door? Why didn’t the passengers use an emergency glass hammer? Why isn’t there an emergency release for the door?
I’d expect that the passengers may not have known about the emergency releases. It’s also possible the releases failed, but all of them?
The article does a poor job of mentioning that those releases are standard to the vehicle. It’s discussed elsewhere in this thread too, where they also provided the Model Y’s manual.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-AAD769C7-88A3-4695-987E-0E00025F64E0.html
When my friend was riding in a tesla they just assumed the emergency latch was the proper way to open the door and pulled that one instead, didn’t even see the button.
Edit: also note, some model Ys don’t have that rear emergency one. Guess you could climb out of the car using the trunk latch.
I can think of only a few situations where you’d want to get out of a car quickly, where you’d have enough time to look under all the matte covers to find a manual door release switch that may or may not be installed. A fire is certainly not one of them. At the very least shouldn’t they be equipped with a Nothammer…?
A lot of newer cars have stronger glass that even these or the spring-loaded kind can’t break.
If that’s not illegal already it should be
They did it ostensibly for safety, as it will keep people from being ejected in a rollover. However, they also probably have manual releases.
tesla gonna tesla so I assume they are as dangerous as can be.
For the rest? There is always (?) one window that isn’t reinforced. So that CAN be an issue if your cabin is significantly damaged. But otherwise? It is a problem to find in a high adrenaline emergency and you SHOULD be aware which window to smash, but you are 3-6 smacks away from being out.
Everyone in my family has one of those in their car. Unfortunately most of them are buried under 100 things in the center console.
What’s the point of one of these if the windows are supposed to be unbreakable?
I’ve seen it said elsewhere that these don’t work on the windows of current Tesla models as they’re laminated.
Hammers aren’t ideal, they take force, knowing how to strike, they could shatter glass in your eye.
All of this shit is easily avoided by a fucking handle on the fucking door.
Why cant’t the doors be manual on an EV?
Not cool enough for someone whose brain stopped developing at 15
Of course they can, but then you don’t get those slick flush handles. Ain’t that a thing worth dying for?
best part is that the handles on the 3 and Y are manually actuated but have an electronic lock. so you push the wide part in to pop the handle out, and when you pull it it opens electronically. so stupid.
Worst of both worlds 👐
Than you wouldnt look smart when a person sitting in your ev doesnt know how to open the door, and you smugly grin and show how stupid they look for not spending 30min on youtube and looking at videos how to open ev doors.
Think I read they can, but it’s in a special non obvious place. So they probably didn’t know or didn’t find it
They are in the front. It’s super obvious. People pull them by accident all the time instead of the electric switch. It’s right where your hand rests on the front two doors.
So they are manual after all ?
There is a manual override that’s not hidden away.
Interesting
Always have an emergency hammer in your car to break a window
I have a Civic with a manual door handle, but after reading your comment … I think I’m going to get one to leave in the car just in case.
Should your car ever wind up submerged in water a hammer could come in handy. Make sure it’s a “break glass” type hammer, which has a point. Thick tempered glass is surprisingly strong.
Would that work in a car that purports to have bulletproof windows?
Only the tesla truck claims to be bullet proof. This happened in a model y and the 5th person in the car narrowly survived because a bystander smashed the window.
Hmm yeah, didn’t think of that
The spring-loaded kind are a lot easier to use in a cramped car and by people with less upper body strength. However, those won’t work on newer cars with dual-pane or laminated glass
I’ve seen people say that emergency window hammers don’t work with Tesla windows as they’re laminated in current models.
Something pointed would be way better, doesn’t even have to be big
Many are built into USB adapters for the old cigarette lighter style of plug, so if you’ve got a car with one of those plugs you can slot it in and if you ever need it you pop it out, put the plug to the window and slam, shatters right away, don’t need that much force or space at all
This effectively is what an emergency hammer is - a “hammer” but with a narrow point specifically to be able to break the glass from the inside.
Yeah but normal people are going to read “emergency hammer” and think you mean it like a carpenters hammer you have for emergencies
The product has a stupid name, I blame engineers (as usual for bad naming of things, sorry guys)
They are called Window breaker safety hammers because they are shaped like hammers, and you use it like a hammer.
They make window breakers on emergency flashlights for vehicles. Those aren’t called hammers, but an emergency flashlight with a window breaker.
Is there an advantage to such an electronic door opener? If they have to include a manual release anyways, it really doesn’t seem like they’d save space.
I guess, there might be novelty to just pressing a button, but not burning alive is also quite a cool feature.
Just a button to press!
Emergency release can be hidden behind the speaker cover!
Why is it Lemmy is okay with Outrage culture when it targets Tesla/SpaceX/Apple, yet criticized else where?
So reading these comments most people don’t understand that many cars have electronic doors for several valid design reasons and yet all I have seen have manual overrides. Tesla as many other cars without window trims have to lower the glass before you can open the door. Most if not all cars even German makes do this electronicly but like my Tesla, have a manual handle that mechanicly drops the glass windows panel so you can open normally.
Both my Tesla and friends VW Benzin(Gas) car som 15 years ago use the same system… If the car have no trim and electronic windows, you also have this design issue, which extends this to ALL car brands.
But yea let’s throw reason out the window and yell “Tesla bad!!!”…
How if it is true some models don’t have the manual override (and that might include none Tesla cars if there indeed is no regulation that mandates it) I feel bad for the people not knowing or the safety ratings ignoring this oversight.
I can just say, mine does and is mentioned in the safety rating used in EU.
I think it’s more like
Car on fire PANIC!!! OH SHIT I can’t just pull this door handle to get out. Oh God it’s so hot, what’s happening … (Get disoriented) … Trying to find a way out still. A series of steps with a hidden release has to happen - hope you knew that before you climbed in.
Yeah many cars do have electronic doors, but they can be easily opened without electricity in a simple way. Yank the handle.
For some reason Tesla thought that was a bad idea. It’s stupid, I know they should have broken a window but when you’re panicking going on years of experience opening car doors you’re going to try to open them the way you know how.
So, yeah, it’s not just because it’s a Tesla - it’s because it’s a dangerous and dumb engineering choice that they made which puts people’s lives in danger unnecessarily.
Many people in my Tesla have janked the emergency handle, rather than clicking the button to get out without any emergency, there isn’t any Door handle, there is the emergency handle… Which kinda proves my point and your outrage comment proves you haven’t even been in a Tesla yet comment on “it’s bad design”.
Same kind of comments from people against seatbelts when they were introduced. “It’s not the standard and people will burn in their cars” without seeing or trying a seatbelt.
It very much is because it’s a Tesla because my point about Tesla not being the only car which use electric windows control pre opening the door. Yet people hating on “EV needs power to get out” failing to realise that many Gas powered vehicles require the same thing. Some even implemented explosives that need to push the door off to be able to get out.
Many people in my Tesla have janked the emergency handle, rather than clicking the button to get out without any emergency, there isn’t any Door handle, there is the emergency handle… Which kinda proves my point and your outrage comment proves you haven’t even been in a Tesla yet comment on “it’s bad design”.
That might be true for the front seat, but what about the back? I doubt you’d have 4 passengers all up front with you in the passenger seat.
I’ve never been in a Tesla, but according to the owner’s manual the emergency release for the back seat is a cable behind a hidden panel, and not all models actually have that hidden panel.
Sweet, what about back seat folks?
Also those other cars have easier ways of getting out in event for a power failure, not having to open a separate hidden compartment and pull a cable.
I’ve been in Teslas and I’m not going to buy one. My used 2009 Mazda 3 has better build quality than the brand new Teslas. Silly AF
Good to know this isn’t about fuckcars at all, it’s about fuck Tesla and changes to upset the Gas industry.
Good to know as I’d rather enjoyed Lemmy but if it’s a Russia, Saudi and US lobby pushing their agenda here, ohh well
No fuckcars too, I just live in suburbia and need one to do anything and exist
What the hell are you on about? Seatbelts were introduced to SAVE lives, removing handles was done to look cool.
They where made to open car doors and Tesla chose a design which you can find on cars from 1990 on sportscars to reduce drag and increase efficiency.
But ok let’s stick to the pickup truck handles and efficient…
If there was a burning car and I had to open your Tesla’s door from the outside to save you, you’re dead because I wouldn’t be able to figure out how to use the handle, regardless of whether the thing was still powered or not.
I have had many people ride in my Tesla and most of them opened the door by pulling the emergency handle… By instinct. So great job reading a headline and commenting without ever being in a Tesla, calling something you have never seen “bad design”.
Some kind of argument this group deals with when people say " busses/trains don’t work [instead made up thing they have never seen]"
Great job furthering the cause or any change at improving anything.
I’m talking about accessing the Tesla from the outside. It’s not obvious how you do that, and I’ve been picked up by several Teslas that were Ubers. (IIRC isn’t there something like the handles don’t pop out if the doors are locked too? I just remember that I’ve struggled with this)
So anyone in a sports car? Porsche, Massaratti, Audi, Ferrari and many others used these way before Tesla…
Tesla bootlicker go brrrrr 🤣
Try breaking a window man, do your due diligence and save a life. Don’t just give up at the slight obstacle.
If the occupant is unconscious, dragging one out of the window can make things significantly worse if there are injuries from a crash. The door handle should always be available. Even if the door won’t open on one side because of an impact there, use the other side. There are much better alternatives than dragging someone over shattered glass out of a window.
Life over limbs. If the vehicle is on fire and I’m unconscious, fucking drag me out by any means necessary.
Not risking my life EXTRA for someone still choosing to drive a Tesla after all of this, I’ll keep on keepin’ on and leave that to the professionals
Not saving a life because of their choice of vehicle… that’s really sad.
Imagine seeing a car on fire and actually saying to yourself “ hell nah, screw that guy, he chose to drive a Tesla, he deserve to burn alive”.
Great way of thinking man. I hope I don’t live anywhere near you.
Imagine seeing a car on fire and actually saying to yourself “ hell nah, screw that guy, he chose to drive a Tesla, he deserve to burn alive”.
Great way of thinking man
Strawman: destroyed
Try:
Fuck helping that guy, I’m not figuring out how his stupid door works and potentially getting hurt myself because he chose to drive a stupidly designed vehicle
Notice how in yours it’s some sort of bigotry towards the car, while I specifically pointed out that Tesla’s are objectively less safe to interact with and that was the reason, with 0 sympathy being offered because they chose to drive a badly designed car
you could learn how to open a Tesla door so that if you ever come across a Tesla that’s on fire, you could save a life. There are plenty of youtube videos, less than 10 seconds of your time.
You could make a difference in someone’s life.
Lol, fuck learning how to open someone else’s car for an extremely niche situation, they can burn, I do not care about their poor choices
How the fuck is being sad about preventable deaths “outrage culture”?
Why does stoposto promote Shitty Post Culture?
Why is it Lemmy is okay with Outrage culture when it targets Tesla/SpaceX/Apple, yet criticized else where?
Is that a serious question?
Oof, this one sounds serious 🙄
It is. I very much enjoy fuckcars and push for public transport when possible. However I hate the traditional car companies more for lying and burying alternatives to ICE more than I do the one company that in 10 years changed a stagnant Gas/Benzin polluting product which got bigger and bigger to a now Electric alternatives. That includes the side effect in my city for electric busses which were not a thing before said company and the change in zeitgeist around EV vs ICE.
So yes I’m in fuck cars and I am saying while I hate the current CEO of the company, I also recognize their success have pushed and improved my local public transport system and city (which in 2030 will ban all ICE cars from its center with a much larger push towards public alternatives at the same time).
How many shares of TSLA do you own?
