Ukraine has a responsibility to make sure US and foreign support isn’t wasted and they’re doing just that.
idk dude, maybe you should stop sending wave after wave after wave of leopards and bradleys into minefields if you want to not waste Western resources
I hope Ukraine kill all these invading Russian motherfuckers and that Putin dies too.
the saddest thing is that at the end of this war, there will be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dead Ukrainians, all who died because of Western hatred. but you won’t actually care, will you? the lives of the average Ukrainian mean nothing to you. you could send a hundred Ukrainians to die horrifically in the no man’s land and if a Russian stubs his toe because of it, you would call it a worthy sacrifice, because causing the Russians inconvenience and suffering is worth much more than saving the lives of innocent people who have been conscripted at gunpoint.
if it wasn’t a worthy sacrifice, and you thought this wholesale slaughter should stop, you would support ending the war, like the left does.
If the West didn’t organize a coup in Ukraine, put Nazis into power, then prod them into slaughtering their countrymen, then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded. The Russians didn’t just wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine.
I’d love to see how you people will react when Mexico joins BRICS and the US invades it.
I’d love to see how you people will react when Mexico joins BRICS and the US invades it.
I cannot fucking wait for China and Russia to do freedom of navigation exercises between Cuba and Florida like how the US does with Taiwan and China and for Americans to just fucking LOSE it. Holy shit, it’ll be so funny. “No, this isn’t the same because China is evil and we’re the good guys!”
There was a referendum in the Donbass and people voted to join Russia. Much like happened with Alsace and Lorraine. I’m sorry but we salute the red 🇰🇵 white 🇨🇺 and blue 🇱🇦 here if you don’t like democracy you can fuck off back to lemmy.
They probably don’t, but unlike the bourgeois government of Ukraine, the bourgeois government of Russia wasn’t waging a several years long campaign of ethnic violence to redirect working class anger. If Russia is going to prevent a genocide, that’s obviously better.
I have a question for you. Why are liberals so much more interested in protecting the rich than the ethnic minorities they use as scapegoats? You guys do the same thing when you whine about communists in Ukraine fighting antisemitic Ukrainian landlords. How much were my ancestors supposed to endure in order to protect the privilege of the parasites?
The key issue for me is the right of a people to self determination.
The people who live in the eastern parts of Ukraine are overwhelming Russian speaking and identify as ethnically Russian. They voted three times in various ways for some form of preserving their cultural rights, only to have their expression of Democratic will met with violent militias, shelling, and other violence, and then finally voted once again to secede from Ukraine, largely motivated by the extreme hostility from right wing Ukrainian nationalists who were banning the use of Russian, imposing assimilationist education policies, banning political parties that represented the people there, and even banning the free exercise of religion if that religious practice looked to the Russian Orthodox Church for leadership.
The principle of the self determination of a people to choose their own government demands respect and Ukraine has no right to impose their will on a population that doesn’t want it.
You should look at what the people who actually live there, in the east not just those in Kyiv, have been saying for a decade. They don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore and it’s because of the extreme violence Ukraine has inflicted upon them since 2014.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I’m sure you take putin’s word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could’ve stopped the violence whenever they choose.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren’t.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You’re the one who’s going against the grain here, it’s you who needs to prove your stance. I won’t accept it without evidence.
No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads.
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren’t in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results?
literally the consent “isn’t there somebody you forgot to ask?” meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn’t recognize them for doing that and they’re just like “Well, shucks. I guess we’re going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren’t ready to accept us yet!”
That’s all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don’t even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works …
You are changing the question, since Russia’s violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that’s a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn’t have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it’s why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It’s not my fault that u & 72 don’t understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
Again, try saying anything bad about Putin or Russia in Russia. At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US. Go ahead.
There’s lots of above ground opposition to Putin in Russia. Stop being a clown. There’s plenty of real things to criticize. We don’t need to make things up.
Assange didn’t do anything illegal but even if he did you might as well be saying “criticizing Putin may the right thing do, but it’s illegal so you shouldn’t do it.”
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
The definition of right and wrong is always what is legal, that’s why when the ruling class buys political power through lobbying and other corruption, the ruling class becomes more legally right in whatever they want to do!
At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US
Someone’s never heard of the Free Speech fights.
You can and will be jailed just for saying shit, if people start to listen to you and you’re saying the wrong shit. Your “freedom of speech” is as worthless as used toilet paper the moment a judge decides to issue an injunction against you i.e. the strikes in Harlan County in the 70s had judges jailing people for using the word “scab.”
Also fun fact I learned today, remember the Kent State Massacre? People were ordered to apologize for being shot just to get compensation, which only covered legal defenses. Land of the fucking free, lmao
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
When your life is made illegal, what’re you gonna do, liberal? Roll over for the bourgeois state like a good boy?
no, he didn’t leak shit, he published leaked information what the hell.
and you can only do that right now because the ruling class isn’t concerned about possible socialist revolution, I advise you to read up on the 1st and 2nd Red Scares!
(also, who fucking cares if you can complain about something if you can’t actually change the situation???)
So when a cop kills an innocent person I’m just not supposed to be upset?
Again, I can spread the word and my viewpoint and not be arrested/killed, at least legally. It’s not like Biden or Trump could have had me killed for saying it.
Whoa slow down, where did this cop come from? I swear you people are so morally bankrupt, you have to try and mindtrick someone into agreeing w/ a completely unrelated question. It’s so jarring and deceitful to read
Again, purposely digging up confidential information and then exposing it is illegal.
Going up to Snowden and saying “Erm, sir, you might have told us that the American government is spying on us every moment of our lives, but, erm, actshually, doing that was illegal, so unfortunately, sir, you are not epic and you don’t deserve freedom of speech protections”
what an absolute fucking dweeb, holy shit
I will go tell Putin to make it “confidential information” that he’s a bad person, then maybe you’ll shut the fuck up for a single moment of your life because a bootlicker like you will be forced to obey it if you ever go there
that’s impossible, the entire Russian army has been destroyed a hundred times now by Ukraine, over 15 million Russian troops have been killed last time I checked, there are no snipers left
the Zaporozhye front is just the Ukrainians doing a giant war re-enactment of what would have happened if there were any Russians left alive, but due to the 1:984219 casualty ratio, there aren’t any Russians left
You cant even meaningfully add to a joke bc youre so childishly resentful. You take this arguing so much more seriously than us while we just casually have the information youre missing, and it looks hilarious.
I need you to understand that I am not being hyperbolic when I say that you and people who share your views are what is wrong with humanity in the present day. As long as people like you continue to be either willing or gullible enough to keep believing the lies of a geopolitical block as untrustworthy as the United States and its allies solely because you are incapable of looking past your country’s propaganda and seeing your own leaders as anything other than the righteous beacons of humanity that they try to make themselves appear to be, humanity will almost certainly be doomed to enter pointless conflicts and cause mass destruction until we drive our own species off of a cliff.
Whataboutism is just a rhetorical device trolls try to use to create a double standard for themselves and everyone else when faced with the fact that their side does all the same things they accuse others of. Meanwhile, imagine being such an utter ignoramus to be unaware of all the political violence that US does.
No, it’s because two wrongs don’t make a right. You can point out shit the US has done all day and I’ll probably agree with you. But it doesn’t make what Russia did okay.
Yeah whataboutism is fucking retarded. It’s no excuse or justification. It’s shit.
the problem isn’t necessarily pointing out the problems with any particular country, that can be done as a legitimate discussion, what gets really fucking annoying is when people only talk about the problems with a certain country and then when questioned, are like “Oh, no! We also hate it when America does this thing! We’re just talking about X country right now!” when that’s clearly false. like, you say “Fuck China for having mass surveillance” on reddit and you get 100k upvotes, 20 platinum awards and some dude’s firstborn son, whereas if you say “Fuck America for having mass surveillance” you’ll get “Hm, well, you see, this is a complicated topic, because on the one hand…” or even just “Yeah, but it’s nothing compared to China though!”
the problem is also when what you’re talking about is necessarily a comparison because no action exists in a vacuum free of context. if I say “The US is an awful, imperialist country that has invaded all these nations, and NATO has also invaded and destroyed nations, and we should not support them even if Russia is doing a bad thing because Russia’s death toll is so much lower than the West’s” then all I would get on most lib platforms is “That history doesn’t matter! What matters is the here and now, when Russia is doing a bad thing and NATO currently, at this precise moment in time, is not! Bad things are bad things! You can’t wave them away through context!”
but the question isn’t “Is Russia doing a bad thing”, I don’t think anybody would deny except the most fervent Russian nationalist that Russia has done at least some bad things in Ukraine, the question is “Who should we support in this war” and so the fact that NATO and the US has killed tens of millions of people within the lifetime of the current president and doomed hundreds of millions more to backbreaking labor in mines and plantations and sweatshops, and Russia, well, hasn’t, is a perfectly pertinent point to make when asking who to support. This is also why liberals are so utterly gobsmacked when third-world countries don’t come out against Russia, because they have been on the receiving end of this campaign of carnage that the US has wrought around the world and so, logically, think Russia is the lesser of two evils. can’t they see that Russia is evil! can’t they see that Putler is the devil doing a genocide!? they must be brainwashed by Russian disinformation propaganda! we must up our efforts to spread Correct Information!
Fuck off with your pro Russian headline which doesn’t match the article.
Ukraine has a responsibility to make sure US and foreign support isn’t wasted and they’re doing just that.
Ok dronie. I will celebrate when the West crumbles.
dronie is a good one.
idk dude, maybe you should stop sending wave after wave after wave of leopards and bradleys into minefields if you want to not waste Western resources
the saddest thing is that at the end of this war, there will be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dead Ukrainians, all who died because of Western hatred. but you won’t actually care, will you? the lives of the average Ukrainian mean nothing to you. you could send a hundred Ukrainians to die horrifically in the no man’s land and if a Russian stubs his toe because of it, you would call it a worthy sacrifice, because causing the Russians inconvenience and suffering is worth much more than saving the lives of innocent people who have been conscripted at gunpoint.
if it wasn’t a worthy sacrifice, and you thought this wholesale slaughter should stop, you would support ending the war, like the left does.
That has to be one of the dumbest takes I’ve ever read on the internet.
If the West wouldn’t support Ukraine then the Russians would kill them without resistance, that’s about it.
If the West didn’t organize a coup in Ukraine, put Nazis into power, then prod them into slaughtering their countrymen, then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded. The Russians didn’t just wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine.
I’d love to see how you people will react when Mexico joins BRICS and the US invades it.
I cannot fucking wait for China and Russia to do freedom of navigation exercises between Cuba and Florida like how the US does with Taiwan and China and for Americans to just fucking LOSE it. Holy shit, it’ll be so funny. “No, this isn’t the same because China is evil and we’re the good guys!”
They did it near Alaska and Yankees lost it
Yes, we know you libs dream of Russian genocide, but you can keep dreaming.
Why do you think Russia deserves the land it invaded?
There was a referendum in the Donbass and people voted to join Russia. Much like happened with Alsace and Lorraine. I’m sorry but we salute the red 🇰🇵 white 🇨🇺 and blue 🇱🇦 here if you don’t like democracy you can fuck off back to lemmy.
They probably don’t, but unlike the bourgeois government of Ukraine, the bourgeois government of Russia wasn’t waging a several years long campaign of ethnic violence to redirect working class anger. If Russia is going to prevent a genocide, that’s obviously better.
I have a question for you. Why are liberals so much more interested in protecting the rich than the ethnic minorities they use as scapegoats? You guys do the same thing when you whine about communists in Ukraine fighting antisemitic Ukrainian landlords. How much were my ancestors supposed to endure in order to protect the privilege of the parasites?
Anything is better than to live under nazi rule.
The key issue for me is the right of a people to self determination.
The people who live in the eastern parts of Ukraine are overwhelming Russian speaking and identify as ethnically Russian. They voted three times in various ways for some form of preserving their cultural rights, only to have their expression of Democratic will met with violent militias, shelling, and other violence, and then finally voted once again to secede from Ukraine, largely motivated by the extreme hostility from right wing Ukrainian nationalists who were banning the use of Russian, imposing assimilationist education policies, banning political parties that represented the people there, and even banning the free exercise of religion if that religious practice looked to the Russian Orthodox Church for leadership.
The principle of the self determination of a people to choose their own government demands respect and Ukraine has no right to impose their will on a population that doesn’t want it.
You should look at what the people who actually live there, in the east not just those in Kyiv, have been saying for a decade. They don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore and it’s because of the extreme violence Ukraine has inflicted upon them since 2014.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I’m sure you take putin’s word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could’ve stopped the violence whenever they choose.
“That referendum and those elections don’t count because the USA said no” truly the voice of democracy and freedom.
I guess it was Putin that forced Zelenskyy to ban the political opposition? Because the damn Putin bots kept voting wrong.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren’t.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You’re the one who’s going against the grain here, it’s you who needs to prove your stance. I won’t accept it without evidence.
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren’t in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
Imma put this simply since you’ve started repeating yourself ad nauseam. Which 3 specific referendums are you referring to?
literally the consent “isn’t there somebody you forgot to ask?” meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn’t recognize them for doing that and they’re just like “Well, shucks. I guess we’re going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren’t ready to accept us yet!”
That’s all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don’t even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works …
You are changing the question, since Russia’s violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that’s a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn’t have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it’s why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
It wasn’t a coup it was a revolution.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
Who has the monopoly of violence in Luhansk and Donetsk currently…?
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It’s not my fault that u & 72 don’t understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
what’re your thoughts on the US bombing of panama city?
Whataboutism is your best defense, and a poor attempt at that?
Equating the two is hilarious. Even so I’m not excusing all the bullshit the US has done.
At least I can say the US has done some terrible shit without getting arrested or killed. Try saying anything bad about Russia or Putin in Russia.
Huh??? what the hell do you think Assange did?
Leaking confidential information, as damning as it may be, is illegal.
Again, try saying anything bad about Putin or Russia in Russia. At least I can speak freely and scream from the rooftops about the shitty parts of the US. Go ahead.
If you do this in the US you are getting a visit from the police
so I gather from these two statements that the first is incorrect
It’s like the two statues riddle but you lose no matter what and they wear CIA and NSA jackets.
There’s lots of above ground opposition to Putin in Russia. Stop being a clown. There’s plenty of real things to criticize. We don’t need to make things up.
Aside from that not being what he did, what does it matter morally that it’s illegal? It was illegal to smuggle Jews out of Germany, too.
Julian Assange wasn’t even fucking American or in America
silly communist, don’t you know that AMERICAN law applies everywhere in the world? Heh, you really lack a geopolitical education and it shows 😎
(I am being facetious pls don’t block me)
You when the US commits war crimes: :)
You when their war crimes are reported on: >:(
He didn’t leak any info, he published already leaked info. There is an important legal distinction.
Assange didn’t do anything illegal but even if he did you might as well be saying “criticizing Putin may the right thing do, but it’s illegal so you shouldn’t do it.”
The definition of right and wrong is always what is legal, that’s why when the ruling class buys political power through lobbying and other corruption, the ruling class becomes more legally right in whatever they want to do!
Unless that law is a bad country’s law.
Rooftops are generally a good place to speek freely, even in an oppressive country.
Try speaking about US atrocities at work. If you lose your job, you’re not free.
I used to work for the US government and we all talked shit about it at work. So your making shit up
Working at the dmv and talking about how incompetent bureaucracy are isn’t the kind of talking we’re talking about
Go work for a railroad and try to organize a general strike and tell me how safe you feel
I don’t feel like I’d be arrested or put to death if that’s what your asking?
I don’t feel like I’d be arrested or put to death if that’s what your asking?
I don’t feel like I’d be arrested or put to death if that’s what your asking?
Someone’s never heard of the Free Speech fights.
You can and will be jailed just for saying shit, if people start to listen to you and you’re saying the wrong shit. Your “freedom of speech” is as worthless as used toilet paper the moment a judge decides to issue an injunction against you i.e. the strikes in Harlan County in the 70s had judges jailing people for using the word “scab.”
Also fun fact I learned today, remember the Kent State Massacre? People were ordered to apologize for being shot just to get compensation, which only covered legal defenses. Land of the fucking free, lmao
When your life is made illegal, what’re you gonna do, liberal? Roll over for the bourgeois state like a good boy?
No, not at all.
Freedom of speech protects you from being prosecuted for saying something.
It doesn’t protect you from any other consequences of what you say.
I did not say that you can say anything with no consequences whatsoever
You’re just being obtuse and refusing to understand reality, so as not to lose an argument or learn something.
no, he didn’t leak shit, he published leaked information what the hell.
and you can only do that right now because the ruling class isn’t concerned about possible socialist revolution, I advise you to read up on the 1st and 2nd Red Scares!
(also, who fucking cares if you can complain about something if you can’t actually change the situation???)
So when a cop kills an innocent person I’m just not supposed to be upset?
Again, I can spread the word and my viewpoint and not be arrested/killed, at least legally. It’s not like Biden or Trump could have had me killed for saying it.
Whoa slow down, where did this cop come from? I swear you people are so morally bankrupt, you have to try and mindtrick someone into agreeing w/ a completely unrelated question. It’s so jarring and deceitful to read
Do you see how these two statements cannot be true at the same time?
Again, purposely digging up confidential information and then exposing it is illegal.
Talking realistically and honestly about something is freedom of speech.
If you are that dense that you think those are the same things, then I might as well talk to a brick wall.
Going up to Snowden and saying “Erm, sir, you might have told us that the American government is spying on us every moment of our lives, but, erm, actshually, doing that was illegal, so unfortunately, sir, you are not epic and you don’t deserve freedom of speech protections”
what an absolute fucking dweeb, holy shit
I will go tell Putin to make it “confidential information” that he’s a bad person, then maybe you’ll shut the fuck up for a single moment of your life because a bootlicker like you will be forced to obey it if you ever go there
Again, I don’t disagree and I find it commendable what both did exposing things.
However, it is against the law. It’s not the same thing as free speech.
dang putin must have snipers everywhere to enforce that
that’s impossible, the entire Russian army has been destroyed a hundred times now by Ukraine, over 15 million Russian troops have been killed last time I checked, there are no snipers left
the Zaporozhye front is just the Ukrainians doing a giant war re-enactment of what would have happened if there were any Russians left alive, but due to the 1:984219 casualty ratio, there aren’t any Russians left
you mean there are not snipers in every square meter of siberia watching out for siberian separatists?
He probably would if he could.
Damn the butthurt Russians are out in force today.
Why do you call the people disagreeing with you Russians?
You cant even meaningfully add to a joke bc youre so childishly resentful. You take this arguing so much more seriously than us while we just casually have the information youre missing, and it looks hilarious.
Imagine being so chauvinistic that you’re outright unable to conceive of the idea that someone might hold an opinion for any reason other than blind patriotism. You’ve become brainwashed to a point where you can’t imagine that the governments of the United States and its allies, which have been caught spreading or taking advantage of lie after lie after lie after lie after lie in order to achieve geopolitical victories over nations they considered to be a political or economic threat, might be lying in their characterization of the government of Russia, which has repeatedly stood in the way of American and Western European attempts to both expand into Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe politically, as well as exploit Ukraine economically.
I need you to understand that I am not being hyperbolic when I say that you and people who share your views are what is wrong with humanity in the present day. As long as people like you continue to be either willing or gullible enough to keep believing the lies of a geopolitical block as untrustworthy as the United States and its allies solely because you are incapable of looking past your country’s propaganda and seeing your own leaders as anything other than the righteous beacons of humanity that they try to make themselves appear to be, humanity will almost certainly be doomed to enter pointless conflicts and cause mass destruction until we drive our own species off of a cliff.
Whataboutism is just a rhetorical device trolls try to use to create a double standard for themselves and everyone else when faced with the fact that their side does all the same things they accuse others of. Meanwhile, imagine being such an utter ignoramus to be unaware of all the political violence that US does.
No, it’s because two wrongs don’t make a right. You can point out shit the US has done all day and I’ll probably agree with you. But it doesn’t make what Russia did okay.
Yeah whataboutism is fucking retarded. It’s no excuse or justification. It’s shit.
the problem isn’t necessarily pointing out the problems with any particular country, that can be done as a legitimate discussion, what gets really fucking annoying is when people only talk about the problems with a certain country and then when questioned, are like “Oh, no! We also hate it when America does this thing! We’re just talking about X country right now!” when that’s clearly false. like, you say “Fuck China for having mass surveillance” on reddit and you get 100k upvotes, 20 platinum awards and some dude’s firstborn son, whereas if you say “Fuck America for having mass surveillance” you’ll get “Hm, well, you see, this is a complicated topic, because on the one hand…” or even just “Yeah, but it’s nothing compared to China though!”
the problem is also when what you’re talking about is necessarily a comparison because no action exists in a vacuum free of context. if I say “The US is an awful, imperialist country that has invaded all these nations, and NATO has also invaded and destroyed nations, and we should not support them even if Russia is doing a bad thing because Russia’s death toll is so much lower than the West’s” then all I would get on most lib platforms is “That history doesn’t matter! What matters is the here and now, when Russia is doing a bad thing and NATO currently, at this precise moment in time, is not! Bad things are bad things! You can’t wave them away through context!”
but the question isn’t “Is Russia doing a bad thing”, I don’t think anybody would deny except the most fervent Russian nationalist that Russia has done at least some bad things in Ukraine, the question is “Who should we support in this war” and so the fact that NATO and the US has killed tens of millions of people within the lifetime of the current president and doomed hundreds of millions more to backbreaking labor in mines and plantations and sweatshops, and Russia, well, hasn’t, is a perfectly pertinent point to make when asking who to support. This is also why liberals are so utterly gobsmacked when third-world countries don’t come out against Russia, because they have been on the receiving end of this campaign of carnage that the US has wrought around the world and so, logically, think Russia is the lesser of two evils. can’t they see that Russia is evil! can’t they see that Putler is the devil doing a genocide!? they must be brainwashed by Russian disinformation propaganda! we must up our efforts to spread Correct Information!
Sevy destroys Liberal with facts and logic