• saarth@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    When I lived in India, I never voted, never felt like voting either because the options were far right corrupt goons or center right corrupt goons. And I believe it’s the same in US.

    Now that I live in the Netherlands, I can vote for SP or Pirate Party or PvdA or Green Left. I actually have parties with whom my ideologies align and I can vote for what I feel. And I already did once.

    The debate isn’t as black and white. In a system where electoral systems are relevant and reflect your beliefs sure go ahead and vote. But in places where this isn’t the case, I don’t see how voting is useful or fulfilling.

  • uberfreeza@lemmy.world
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    I don’t see much word about it so I’ll say: “Vote in primaries!” That way when the national elections show up, you’re not stuck with John Fascist and Jane Corporate. Don’t just wait for the big ones; vote for each election you can to make your voice fully heard.

    • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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      Not to mention that there are more than one race in the ballot. Mine not only has state and county elections, but also municipal propositions.

    • Tja@programming.dev
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      Sometimes they are just dumb. Yes, that dumb. They exist, they have communities on reddit and they ban you if you dare argue against their logic.

    • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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      If you’re trying to get rid of Walmarts in your neighbourhood then I think one of those options is much more effective.

    • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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      People on twitter be like “you think we need to change the system? That pales in effectiveness to my strategy, helping neoliberalis win elections” and then not win elections

    • psycholocomotor_no2@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      I’m just saying, we have the power to start helping economically and socially oppressed people without relying on the government. I’m not asking you to firebomb a Walmart, I’m asking you to hide undocumented immigrants in your house or help them obtain firearms illegally if they require so they can start a militia, those crimes.

      • Donkter@lemmy.world
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        and then doesn’t hide undocumented immigrants in your house or help them obtain firearms illegally if they require so they can start a militia.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          If you are hiding undocumented immigrants in your house or helping them illegally obtain firearms, please for the love of god don’t post about it on a public forum.

        • psycholocomotor_no2@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          'Cause I literally cannot do those things because I’m about to be homeless. I have no income and cannot get a job because I’m too autistic and too trans and too traumatized for one. So I’m on a timer until my conservative abusive parents decide to rid of me (and they have threatened it multiple times). I rely on them for my survival, currently. I have type one diabetes, so it is likely if I am evicted that I will die shortly after from being unable to have access to insulin or other diabetes supplies reliably.

          A friend bought be one vial of estradiol enanthate online through crypto and shipped it to me, so that’s nice, not much, but this is what I’m talking about.

          Idk, this kinda stuff is like for working class people. My class is probably lumpenproletariat, I don’t have the resources to do much.

    • nummy@lemmy.world
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      it honestly feels like a psyop at this point. in russia there was a particular focus on making people “apolitical”, which is a different direction but still was focused on reducing opposition turnout.

      • motoxjake@lemmy.zip
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        Read Aleksandr Dugin book and it all makes sense. It’s part of the geopolitical playbook.

        Sowing Social Division: The book explicitly directs Russian operatives to introduce “geopolitical disorder” inside the U.S. by fueling racial, social, and religious polarization.

        Exploiting the Democratic Process: While it doesn’t give a step-by-step guide to voter suppression, it encourages the promotion of isolationist and extremist political groups to break down faith in public institutions, media, and the democratic process itself.

  • BradleyUffner@lemmy.world
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    Even if you don’t think voting will fix everything, just remember that it won’t -hurt- anything. Just vote.

  • hark@lemmy.world
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    I, too, remember when biden winning in 2020 ended trump and fascism.

    • KatakiY@lemmy.world
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      Thankfully we only live four to eight years at a time so I have no idea what you’re talking about. This problem will go away completely if we elect John democrat.

      Unjerk: voting for harm reduction and local elections is important but don’t stop there. Join a mutual aid group, attend local meetings if you can and care for your neighbors.

      • XiJinpingStanAccount@lemmy.ml
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        Yeah I think that’s what makes people so annoyed about the energy put towards voting. Like I don’t care if you vote. I’m not gonna. But do whatever. But I wish like 25% of the energy people put toward voting also went towards any of that other stuff. So it does annoy me a bit seeing all the vote blue no matter who stuff. Because I know they’re gonna go vote and pat themselves on the back and call it a day the vast majority of the time.

      • hark@lemmy.world
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        Image says the answer to the question “when did voting last end an authoritarian regime” is “two days ago”. I’m just pointing out that it didn’t end it. You added the “ineffective” part.

    • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world
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      To be fair, it won’t be a full blown dictatorship until he takes a third term by force. Until then it’s just sparkling tyranny.

      • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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        “Dictatorship” is not just a synonym for any unelected leader. Begging you people to learn what the words you use mean

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          Dictators can still be voted for, and many of them are through highly rigged elections. A burecrat is someone who’s appointed to a position of power, which’d be closer in alignment with that definition. Really I don’t think either term would apply here in good faith.

          • BanMeFromPosting@lemmy.ml
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            Oligarch is right there, but these people wanna misuse every term they hear.
            There’s also plenty of people put in positions of power that aren’t classified as bureaucrats (like the Catholic clergy, a bunch of different regional administrators of the byzantine, latin and SEA Empires)

  • HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world
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    Because there are massive groups of people on the internet with vested interests in convincing you not to vote (because it helps their allies win).

  • greenbit@lemmy.zip
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    yea vote but don’t imagine that beat fascism. serbia and the rest of the world has a lot to achieve for the system to fully change

    • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today
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      I would like to remind you the students got sound weapon’d, and there was an undertone of potential violence.

      Also, our election system still was working, so not riggable.

      • Napster153@lemmy.world
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        There’s a reason why the founders of America excplicitly said that revolution not done peacefully, must be done through force. They knew, no matter how vague, just what sort of calamity was coming, because such things had struck every kingdom and nation before the US.

        • deft@lemmy.wtf
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          Unfortunately I don’t think America is really ready for a revolution and I also believe we’re still at a point where voting can genuinely make change.

          Half the reason any of this shit is happening is because a black guy got elected president and then a bunch of women, and even some not white people too

          The response has been this. It’s fear with a facade of power that you’re seeing.

  • usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml
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    The slightly more nuanced steel man is voting alone doesn’t fix things. I.e vote and take other action

    Serbia’s election results happened after almost 2 years of protests including worker strikes

    • Goodeye8@piefed.social
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      Yeah. Anyone who thinks “vote and everything will be fixed” is just as delusional as the person who says voting doesn’t matter. Serbia did way more than just vote and so far they’ve only voted out the authoritarian leader. They still need to tackle all corruption built up over the years. This is not the end, if anything it’s a start.

      • 8oow3291d@feddit.dk
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        “Just” voting would have stopped Trump in both 2016 and 2024. Until the opposite is proven, it is extremely stupid to not vote in 2026 or 2028 in the US from an assumption that voting alone does not work.

        • Goodeye8@piefed.social
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          And “Just” voting stopped Trump in 2020. But because everyone was happy that Trump got voted out nobody cared to fix the underlying problems that got Trump elected in the first place Trump won again in 2024.

          Just voting is not enough. You need to hold your politicians accountable and make sure they represent your interest not the interest of corporations. If you just vote in democrats and a democratic president but you let the establishment democrats continue to serve the corporations that vote is meaningless because your material conditions won’t improve, discontent will continue growing and eventually someone like Trump will be back in office because they have sweet little lies to whisper into the ears of desperate people who will take it into their hearts and vote accordingly.

          The proof is right there, you just refuse to see it.

          • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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            Nobody saying to vote is saying all you need to do is vote. We are saying voting matters and if you don’t vote you’re as good as a fuckin MAGAt.

            • Goodeye8@piefed.social
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              The person I replied to literally did say just voting would’ve stopped Trump. They didn’t say voting and holding your president accountable or voting and making sure the right steps are taken to prevent Trump again. How am I not supposed interpret it as “voting is all that matters”?

              And I didn’t say not to vote. Voting matters but voting is not the be all end all that most Americans believe it to be. See 2020 to 2024 when it was time to permanently stop Trump but people didn’t give a shit because they had already voted Trump out. I’d say the OP post has the same “voting solves all our problems” vibe, which is why I commented in the first place. Just voting won’t save America.

              • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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                Barely half of eligible voters vote in the midterms. Like twenty percent vote in primaries. People largely don’t vote and that’s part of the problem. People largely don’t vote because they’re idiots that think the parties are the same and listen to idiots that say the parties are the same in spite of literally all the evidence. And yeah, if people actually fucking voted it would have stopped Trump like it did in 2020. If voting didn’t work republicans wouldn’t be trying to take it from you. Voting in every election is the bare minimum every citizen should be doing. But let’s be honest, none of your community outreach is gonna matter much once they’re going door to door.

      • Elting@piefed.social
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        Unfortunatley nuance is lost on the majority of the denizens of the internet, everything is black or white here for the majority of people.

        • MolochAlter@lemmy.world
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          Apt analogy, since both rulership and travel are often unavoidable necessary evils, and improving the means by which either is done is usually worthwhile.

  • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de
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    Hi from Israel. Elections were today. Preliminary results show a very strong possibility for change. It’s still up in the air, but yes, voting can fix things!

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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      Insane that this is getting upvoted. The current Israeli election isn’t fixing anything

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      Elections were today. Preliminary results show a very strong possibility for change.

      Which Israeli political party opposes the genocide in Palestine, again?

      • Caveman@lemmy.world
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        The opposition is generally a lot softer on Palestine issue. Democrats (8 seats) and Arab parties (19 seats) have very good policies.

        Generally the center opposition parties have “reasonable” policies, Together (12 seats) is moderate and Yashar (21 seats) more or less “keep current status but remove some settlements and don’t add new”.

        The change from ethnic cleansing and genocide as a policy/talking point is a pretty major shift and governing parties are projected to get 53 seats out of 120.

        Coalition agreements are going to be pretty tough but there’s hope for a centre left block with Arab parties since a lot of things that are good for Palestinians are also generally economically good policies. This is a stark contrast to working with ultra orthodox parties which cost the state a lot of issues.

    • NewDark@lemmy.today
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      Israeli politicians are either Hitler, Super Hitler, or Mega Hitler. Wild to claim the elections will fix much.

      • dou9m@lemmy.ca
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        Who needs politicians when you can just have Bibi be the unofficial dictator for another century?

    • DudleyMason@lemmy.ml
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      It’s still up in the air

      It’s not. The genocide will continue nearly unabated regardless. The best case scenario on the table is it goes back to the pre-2023 status quo of a slower genocide.

      • OwOarchist@pawb.social
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        The best case scenario on the table is it goes back to the pre-2023 status quo of a slower genocide.

        …

        Isn’t that preferable, though?

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          Preferable, yes, sufficient, no. The primary factor that limits Israel’s genocide, which also has the potential to stop it entirely, is not domestic opposition but foreign resistance, economically and militarily.

        • Damage@feddit.it
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          I guess that depends on the outcome. Everyone was kinda ignoring the slow genocide. (just a few) Things started happening internationally when the quick one began.

          • dou9m@lemmy.ca
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            Kinda ignoring is an understatement. It was effectively completely suppressed by the MSM for decades, at least in the US but presumably in the rest of western society as well.

          • Log in | Sign up@lemmy.world
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            Things started happening internationally when the quick one began.

            What things?!

            In any case, I’m not sure the people of Gaza feel this was worth it.

        • DudleyMason@lemmy.ml
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          Preferable to what?

          To the genocidal settler colonial colony ceasing to exist completely? No.

          • jimmy90@lemmy.world
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            killing jews is really more important to you than potential peace for the palestinians

            gross

            oh you’re ml haahahahahahahaaa, sorry for your loss

          • OwOarchist@pawb.social
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            Preferable to what’s happening right now.

            Or are would you prefer things stay they way they are currently?

            • DudleyMason@lemmy.ml
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              Preferable to what’s happening right now.

              What’s happening right now has destroyed more of Israel’s international support than the decades of slow-mo genocide that preceded it.

              It’s not that Israeli genocide soldiers weren’t sniping kids looking for food before Al Aqsa Flood, it’s just that you never heard about it.

              • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                What’s happening right now has destroyed more of Israel’s international support than the decades of slow-mo genocide that preceded it.

                What do you mean by that? Do you mean international support in the sense of public sentiment, or do you mean it in the sense of material change? The US is still sending them military aid, and also started a war with Iran, which benefits them.

                Even in terms of public support, your argument is self-contradicting. If Israel can revert to the “slo-mo” genocide and recover international support that way, then what does it matter that their international support was destroyed by the more extreme policy? It was only destroyed temporarily, while that policy was in place. If, on the other hand, they could not recover international support by shifting to a “slo-mo” approach, then the argument that it’s better for the more extreme policy to remain makes no sense.

                This sort of “accelerationism” is generally bullshit. People being mad about something isn’t enough to make it change, those people have to have some mechanism of affecting policy in order to affect change. One such mechanism is what may have happened here. No matter how bloodthirsty or genocidal the Israeli politicians or electorate may be, if they see that the extreme approach alienates the international community, they have an incentive to support less extreme policy.

                Calling out the limitations of voting doesn’t mean taking a hard line that it never does anything anywhere.

                • Grainne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  No we would prefer Israel end its existence. Which might possibly happen if they end up losing support from Western nations due to citizens not voting for pro-Zionist politicians.

        • catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works
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          No, that’s an .ml user. They hate Palestinians and trans people. They want BB and Trump to win because saying, I told you so, is more important to them than people’s lives.

          • KatakiY@lemmy.world
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            God damn this shit is so annoying. I thought lemmy was supposed to be better than reddit.

            You’re literally just circle jerking an opinion they didn’t state.

            • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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              It’s the general opinion of ml users at large. They genuinely think trump is better because they’re fundamentally accelerationists and think their dipshit revolution won’t kill then and everyone else.

                • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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                  Allowing the most law breaking and openly corrupt political entity in the history of the country to take power without wielding any existing levers within the system to prevent their power. If voting didn’t matter they wouldn’t be trying to take it from you. Giving power to fascists that have abandoned rule of law and order. You privileged fucking ass.

            • catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works
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              They clearly stated it in their reply an hour ago. It’s almost like you can just look at the .ml after their name and know exactly what they’re going to say.

          • psycholocomotor_no2@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            Delusions, man. Most trans people I know, even IRL, are anarchists or communists and liberals certainly aren’t pro-Palestinian.

            You’re just upset nobody is falling for this manipulation you use to justify all the horrific actions done by liberals as “the lesser evil.”

            Not supporting liberals != supporting conservatives. Someone who refuses to support liberals because their party committing a genocide is not guilty of supporting the conservatives. It’s the fucking liberal party whose fault it is that they lost, not their own voter-base that found them repulsive, that’s just fucking backwards.

            Like actually no, the long term lesser evil is not supporting liberals. If they know this strategy works of being awful, but at least better than conservatives they will keep going to the right. The genocide will be permanent, then they’ll change their mind on trans people, then immigrants, and each step along the way you could make the argument that they were the better option compared to conservatives.

            Vs. The scenario where nobody supports them if they’re committing genocide. They lose once and we have a conservative administration for a period of time. If voters stick with it, the liberals realize they’re really serious about this and are forced to choose between losing or cutting support for Israel. If they lose again, then next election they would probably be so hated they could break the two party system and a more left wing party could have a legitimate chance of winning.

            • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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              Congratulations, your solution kills all the trans people. Good job. In a first past the post two party system in virtually every district in the US your choices are democrat and republican and a third party or protest vote is a vote for the winner. We are in an existential fight and republicans just be prevented from holding power by any means necessary. Your feelings about the reality are irrelevant. Any vote not for a Dem is a vote for the Republicans, regardless of your feelings about it. The time for protest votes was the primaries and before the republicans abandoned realpolitik to an ideologically driven death cult. The parties aren’t the same, it’s not both sides, and you’re not a fuckin ally if your principles are more important than harm reduction. The average American is functionally illiterate and that applies to media and political literacy as well as evidenced by people thinking you’re not full of shit. I hope you get to be first in line to feel the consequences of your choices. Because I will be.

                • edible_funk@sh.itjust.works
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                  So am I. The republicans want to kill me. All of em. A few dems are willing to sacrifice me. Plenty aren’t. The parties aren’t the same and pretending they are does work for MAGA and makes you a MAGAt.

    • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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      I heard that both of the frontrunning candidates are pro-genocide, so what change exactly? Is the argument “Netanyahu isn’t killing Palestinians fast enough”?

      • Caveman@lemmy.world
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        It really depends on what coalition gets formed since the leading opposition party only has 1/3 of the seats required for a majority.

        If he works with Bibi it’ll be shit but he’s being voted for specifically for not being Bibi. This means a centre left coalition with either ultra orthodox or Palestinians is very likely.

    • XiJinpingStanAccount@lemmy.ml
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      The only possibility for meaningful change in the Zionist Entity is if its brought about by the IRGC. Palestine is not yours.

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      What does “change” look like. Because if it’s “less genocide”, nobody gives a fuck.

  • Susaga@sh.itjust.works
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    5 days ago

    If I take a shower, that won’t suddenly make me attractive to girls. And yet, if I don’t take a shower, my stench will make me unattractive to girls.

    On second thoughts, the “why bother voting” crowd would probably struggle with an analogy about taking a shower.

    • riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      4 days ago

      i think the thing with elections is that while they can change and improve things, any one persons individual absitnance is neglegable, especially on a national level. if many people do not vote though, that does have an impact.

      so if i chose not to vote but did not tell anyone about it, there would be basically no difference, while me talking about not voting or advocating against voting could meaningfully contribute.

      i don’t know how to squeeze that into a shower analogie…

      anyway, everyone should go and vote for what i think is the best!

      here is a margaret killjoy quote

      “I’m going to choose the person who represents my interests in this grand democratic project.” I enter the booth thinking “with this one hour of my day, I’ll express my opinion about the terrain on which I’d like to keep fighting for a better world.” And I’d rather be fighting the democrats than the fascists.

      • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        4 days ago

        I love Margaret Killjoy and think she’s right when it comes to individual action here, but it’s also important that the Democrats believe we might not vote for them if they start acting like Republicans. There is zero incentive for terrible Democrats to change if all they ever hear are people shitting blood about how you have to vote for a Democrat no matter who it is.

    • OwOarchist@pawb.social
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      5 days ago

      would probably struggle with an analogy about taking a shower.

      Or an analogy about girls, for that matter.

    • IlCaviale@lemmy.world
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      3 days ago

      Girls will sooner filter you out for not being tall enough than for smelling. If you smell but you’re their phenotype, they just call it musk. Anything is possible when you argue in bad faith. Now go work on yourself some more, possibly for a few years; and as far away from me as possible, while I flirt with someone I liked at first sight.

  • MousePotatoDoesStuff@piefed.social
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    4 days ago

    At the absolute least, voting (when possible) can stop things from breaking so quickly and making it easier to do the other things that fix things.

    And once things are fixed, voting well will be one of the actions keeping things from breaking again.

    Plus, it’s just one hour of effort with years’ worth of impact. Even if that impact is low, it’s a good tradeoff.

  • Kairos@lemmy.today
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    4 days ago

    Voting out fascism never works except for all the times it has like the same fucking guy in 2020

      • Nalivai@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        There is no “beating fascism”, it’s an ethernal struggle, those fuckers are relentless. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, doesn’t invalidate your wins however small and temporary

        • FearMeAndDecay@literature.cafe
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          The bigger problem here in the USA was that biden ran on a “return to normalcy” and didn’t even do that. And the reason trump won originally was partly bc many people were fed up with how things were and knew we needed change. trump is a “business man” (🙄) and americans believe the myth of meritocracy so they think that bc trump has money he’s a good businessman

          So when shit didn’t get better under biden, the just got worse slower and in less dramatic ways, people wanted something else. Since Harris was literally bidens vp and didn’t distance herself from him, people voted for the other guy bc we suffer under a 2 party system

          Was it absolutely fucking stupid for people to vote for trump a second time and think things would be better? Yes. But, the dems also failed to provide a good, better candidate. That’s why its so uplifting to see all of these leftist and DSA candidates. People are finally getting involved and saying we deserve better and won’t settle for less

          • immutable@lemmy.zip
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            4 days ago

            This is the thing mainstream democratic voters struggle so much with.

            If the Democratic Party cant translate electoral victory into positive action, then they won’t get votes next time.

            They win an election on making things better and then tell you “oh well shoot, we couldn’t quite get there, we were so surprised to get power we didn’t know what to do with it, we passed a CHIPS act to give money to Intel though, is that what you wanted?”

            Even the ACA, the hallmark 21st century legislation for the neoliberal democrats has approximately 2 thingss people like, young people can stay on their parents plan until 25 and pre-existing conditions cant be used to deny coverage. Everything else about it sucks though, we still have for profit insurance companies, whose power and profits are now enmeshed into the system even deeper and enshrined in law. Insurers so popular with the common man that when one of their CEOs gets gunned down the media has to give up on trying to make him a sympathetic character because of how much everyone fucking hates health insurance.

            The democrats are constantly telling us how glacially slow any positive change has to be, that’s just the rules man. But the republicans get the slimmest majority and a flood of project 2025 / heritage foundation / ALEC bills are ready to go getting passed making sweeping changes to tax codes, environmental regulations, the social safety net.

            And every election the people that say the Dems are a garbage party that cant win because of their garbage candidates that go on to twiddle their fucking thumbs get yelled at for depressing voter turnout.

            You know what really depresses voter turnout, failing to deliver every time you win an election. There is some great chunk of this nation that will only go out and vote if they get angry enough or like what the current administration is doing enough to show up. The Dems only seem to be able to scratch together a victory on the angry enough side of the coin, because they’ve given up on giving the voters something to vote for. Why? Because those policies will almost certainly upset the donors, and they need those donors to run a bunch of tv ads that won’t convince a single Republican to cross over, but still need to be aired 24/7.

            That’s the most frustrating part, all this money spent for the Dems to attempt to court a handful of theoretical republicans instead of actually energizing their base.

            I’ll hold my nose and vote for these feckless cowards, but they could have a blue wave, a blue tsunami, a blue Armageddon, and I don’t expect them to do a damn thing. They’ll have some investigations, they will release some reports, they will probably impeach again. And none of that will change a damn thing.

            Every time someone ignores a congressional subpoena they will tell the sergeant at arms to take a nap, not go arrest them. They will rubber stamp the next huge pile of money for ICE for fear of being labeled soft on crime or immigration. They won’t enshrine abortion rights it trans protections into law because it will be too controversial and there will always be just enough Dems in “tough districts” that turn tail.

            Then they will act indignant when those voters that got nothing dont show up next time.

      • MinnesotaGoddam@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        That was a failure of the judiciary. And the executive. Also the legislative. But the whole government? Nah. That’s a complete overreaction or something sorry I can’t keep this up

      • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
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        4 days ago

        A surgeon saving your dog still counts if he later runs into traffic a second time. The vet’s office is not the shortcoming.

        • Sharkticon@lemmy.zip
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          4 days ago

          Except in this case the vet didn’t stitch up the wound or set the leg. The vet just stuck a Band-Aid on it. But it was still bleeding, the wound was still full of gravel, and the leg was still broken.

          Also the vets the one who hits the dog with the car both times.