My thing is I don’t want to be on top. I want to live in a society where I can be on the bottom and have a good life.
I, too, wish I could be society’s bottom…
well I said can be at the bottom. Its polite to take turns.
Vers society.
Mom said it’s my turn to be the society’s bottom next!
cum now. You know its daddy who makes those decisions.
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I don’t mind being society’s bottom as long as there’s a safe word.
But do you want to main bottom, or off bottom? Like, are you an aggro build, or a damage build?
Same dude same. I wanna be a maillady who pets kitties and does fart walks daily to deliver mail. And afford the basics.
Why is it too much to ask?!
These kinds of walks are unfamiliar to me. Please tell me more.
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I’m a software developer. My old roomie is a truck driver. I’m devastated he makes almost as much as I do.
He has to drive a truck 5 days a week the entire year, no matter the weather. He deals with accidents, annoying customers, breakdowns, tight spaces, heavy goods. Workdays often drag out, and sometimes he didn’t manage to get home and had to sleep in the truck or at a motel. People are dependant on his work, if his truck doesn’t arrive, a store might not get food, and the attached community will suffer. He takes half an hour to commute to work.
I work from home. I have a few set meetings daily, but I schedule my time on my own. Three times a week I take some extra time to go for a run through the forest with my dog. I’m safe, my bed is always nearby. My commute is the thirty seconds it takes to crawl into clothes and to my office. If I miss my work we at worst have to delay a product launch by a little.
I’m happy with my pay, no doubt, and I wouldn’t want a pay cut. My friend deserves much more though. It’s bananas to me that he doesn’t catch up with me despite all the overtime and such. It’s incredibly unfair.
Driving is the easy part. Finding a bathroom at 4 am on Sunday. Taking a break without someone asking you a question. Just seeing your family with energy after a 12 hour day. That’s where trucking sucks.
I was not CDL driving but I hauled New York Times from the print site on one side of Ohio to a distribution hub on the other side. I spent a lot of hours on the road 6 days a week. You aren’t kidding about trying to find a restroom at night and all the hassles from construction, other drivers, detours, ect. If it weren’t for highway rest areas and truck stops, there would be basically nothing for drivers at night.
I always had an overnight bag with me, but thankfully never had to use it. Nothing but respect for drivers, the nation runs on their backs, we really should be taking better care of them.
I’ve heard jr really takes a toll on your body over time. That’s true with so many jobs that are low-paid. It’s crazy to me watching people swing pick axes in the sun for shit wages.
The truck driver’s job is much harder to do day in and day out. It’s also much more necessary. However, it’s also significantly easier to train a truck driver than it is to train developers and there’s no infinite upside potential for delivery like there is with software projects in some cases (unicorn startups) and there are so many other expenses to run a delivery company that a software company might not have that they need to run on pretty thin margins, otherwise we’re all paying more for all of our food.
First job where I worked as a dev, they took on 3 of us on the same time, all entry-level. One of us was a physicist who was laid off by the university since the government reduced spending on academia. Absolutely an intelligent person. Didn’t last past the probationary period, he just didn’t get things naturally on his own, he needed a lot of guidance. Over the years I’ve seen that nearly half the people hired into entry-level roles don’t learn to become independent enough by the end of their probationary period to be retained after it. Sometimes it’s seniors too, they’ve worked at a place that just cranks out very similar solutions day in and day out (e.g only done frontend and only with one framework, or only a bunch of CRUD applications in one single tech stack) for like 7 or 8 years, that place has a downturn and then they apply for a job elsewhere and they just don’t adapt.
Not everyone’s cut out to be a truck driver either, but once someone has learned to drive trucks, they can drive trucks for another company too. Whether your new employee starts pulling in profit on the first week or you need 4 months to determine if there’s a decent chance of them being a net benefit by the end of the first year has a lot of bearing on how badly you want to retain your existing talent.
Anyway, in my country only the top talent at a couple of companies gets paid significantly more than truck drivers. A junior developer might make less than someone who just started driving a truck. Places like the US just have highly inflated salaries for devs because they’re expected to work in high cost of living cities and compete like crazy for their jobs.
Exactly my feelings. Software dev, get paid more than many people who actually keep others alive, healthy, educated and comfortable. This is not how things should be
I’m in software also and it very seriously bothers me that I earn about what any 10 of my kids’ teachers do.
Might want to edit your first line, where you say you’re devastated that a trucker gets paid almost as much as a software dev. You resolve this as you go on, but I’m surprised you’re not getting more kneejerk douchevotes from people who scan the first line and just infer the rest in the most negative way possible.
It was intentional. A sign of a skilled writer, even. Irony works.
(Even if it does undercut the trucker roommate a bit. The double irony of privilege.)
Not sure how you know what was intentional without being the writer, but ok.
edit: based on the douchevotes, a lot of lemmites either believe in psychic powers or don’t realize comments have usernames.
Because we all read the post their comment was responding to and understood quickly & easily that they were setting up the same reversal of expectations as the lineman in the OP. Context my friend, context.
Not sure how you know they weren’t but ok.
Because comments have usernames on them.
You could tell they aren’t using the first line as a rhetorical device because their username is Leon?
No, I could tell one person didn’t write the comment they were making a pronouncement about because the two comments had different usernames. I did assume it wasn’t one peson using two accounts, so my bad.
How do I “know” that you have a mind and have conscious experiences and aren’t just a zombie?
For arguments sake let’s say I don’t “know.” But I can still assume so. I wrote and write under the assumption that such is the case then and now.
Does one need to know x–whatever “know” means–to state “that x”?
I don’t believe so, certainly not as a blanket rule. Do you? Is that why the standard was applied to what I wrote?
A can of worms. What’s the point? Plenty abound in backyards, internet forums (elsewhere), and politicians’ brains apparently.
Ultimately, the bar–or standard of proof–for acknowledgement and praise, which could have been reasonably inferred from my comment, is low. E.g., when a student does well on a test (in-person, lol), we do not need to “know” that they are perspicacious or precocious. Nor do we need to “know” that they didn’t cheat or simply “guessed” and got lucky. Regardless of (or even in spite of) experience or plausibility, I strongly hold that it is by default fine to assume they did a good job and are a good student. That’s good faith.
How can anyone make friends or have a good life without having some good faith for “strangers,” even if that “vulnerability” can be abused from time to time?
Good luck on the path ahead.
I understand what you mean, but it seems like this post is filled with people that are willing to engage rather than be judgemental. Like the other person said, it is a sign of a good writer - to engage with the readers.
Of course, there are other cases within this site where people are jerks, but in this case you gotta understand that your own anger is spilling into situations where the only jerk is you.
Honestly I thought it was a rhetorical device used cunningly.
And the union would have more justification for negotiating a new even higher wage then they currently have.
It’s kind of sad that people are so motivated by jealousy. Like why would I care if other people have it better?
kids are indoctrinated from school to seek out “high skill” jobs and look down on anyone making less
I teach my kids to seek out high skill, high paying jobs and not look down on anyone. But even that is not a solution.
I think jealousy gets a bad rap. It tells you what you want, and what you personally or society could work toward.
Jealousy and envy are not the same thing, although the nuance is subtle. What you’re talking about is closer to envy. You can be envious of something or someone without the hostility that turns it into jealousy.
I disagree. I believe that you choose for it to be envy or jealousy by your definition.
What my friend was conveying is that envy is the want for something–usually that another has–and jealousy is the fear of losing something that one already has.
The interchangeable usage, e.g. by teenagers, based on a vague understanding is just that (for adults it crystalizes into something normative though they’re probably unaware of it, ego defense mechanisms lol).
And what I’m saying is, that’s a choice.
It’s not my definition. That is the subtle difference between the two words. But, most people use both words for the same thing, and most people only use the word jealousy for both things.
Merriam Webster has an interesting paragraph on the page for jealousy about it: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jealousy
You can also check the definitions of jealous and envious yourself, you’ll see that one is defined through hostility of some sort.
The nuance is usually clear through context no matter which word you use, though. But I think that when you use it in a generic manner like you did, using the right word is best.
Again, both words are responses to the emotion and a choice.
No, they stem from different emotions.
Don’t blow their mind by pointing out how emotions take objects and how that scuttles their position.
Everyone loves Nietche but no one is actually living Nietche. Sure it’s a useful tool if you stop, analyze this emotion and built from it but how many people are actually capable of this in practice? Instead people just get captured by the emotion and never progress.
I don’t think pop culture will ever view jealousy as a positive emotion until we collectively learn emotions.
You gotta start somewhere.
Seeing what someone else has and taking that as information to then decide what you want is not jealousy. Jealousy is seeing what someone else has and hating them for it. It deserves a bad rap.
You’re talking about ambition, or something else.
The US was build on the “fuck you I got mine” mentality.
If you consider the monarchies it came from, this was a big improvement. To even open up the possibility of someone “getting theirs” without any birthright to it was a revelation in its time. But now we’re ready for the next thing.
Capitalism pretends to be positive sum, but it trains us all to act as if society is a zero sum game.
Recently a big game developer announced the end of development on a long running game. They announced they’re doing one more major release and that’s it. When people saw what’s coming in the last release there was a lot of excitement because they were delivering a lot of things people had asked for.
Some said “awesome!”
Some said “you mean they could have done all this at any time and didn’t?!!”
It’s like when you share some information with someone and they immediately say “why disnt you tell me!!”
Some people’s glass will always be half empty no matter what.
Crabs in a bucket
The crab will legit only escape and live if it gets enough other crabs under it to reach the rim of the bucket. I guess you’re saying people act like that even when they don’t need to?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
The metaphor is derived from anecdotal claims about the behavior of crabs contained in an open bucket: if a crab starts to climb out,[3] it will be pulled back in by the others, ensuring the group’s collective demise.[4][5][6]
Ohhhhhh
👍
I don’t think it is fair for a person dedicating years of life towards higher education and becoming a professional to earn the same as someone who doesn’t. Its not jealousy, its just unfair. If earnings are flat, what motivates someone from getting educated and growing as a person?
Lots of people get degrees in lower-earning fields because they value working on things that are interesting or meaningful to them more than they value the income tradeoff. Growing as a person is its own reward.
If a bunch of burger flippers started making what I make I would demand a raise. If my raise was denied I’d go get a job as a burger flipper and probably be a lot less stressed out than I am currently.
If fast-food workers began earning wages comparable to electricians, I wouldn’t necessarily expect electricians to become poorer. I’d expect employers who depend on skilled labor to increase compensation to remain competitive. The question then becomes whether those higher labor costs come from reduced profits, increased prices, greater productivity, or some combination of all three.
Anyway, it is better for all workers.
what you’d actually see is increased unemployment, because that’s the most effective regulator of salaries. the system requires a mass of people without jobs in order to balance itself.
the system requires a mass of people without jobs in order to balance itself.
I don’t know where you got this idea, it seems more like the system requires desperate people and lack of jobs does help in causing that. However, fuck the system
it’s pretty simple; given offers of two identical jobs with different benefits, you’d pick the better one. if there isn’t enough people to fill all open positions, employers need to compete by raising benefits. in short, price follows demand. the more people that are looking for jobs, the lower employers can push salaries and still hire someone.
when neolibs campaign on how “everyone should have a job” and use that as an excuse to cut unemployment benefits, that’s them trying to distract from the fact that unemployment is necessary for the system they built to function. as unemployment approaches zero, salaries approach infinity.
so yeah, fuck that system.
A few percent of job seekers as structural unemployment supports a healthy economy where people change jobs and careers to match changes in labor needs.
That doesn’t mean an increase in minimum wage increases unemployment. There are hundreds of academic studies investigating that question, and it seems the increased economic activity of low-income people having more money generates enough new jobs to at least balance whatever job cuts happen due to the higher labor costs (low-income people tend to spend all their money, so they are more effective agents of short term economic stimulus than higher-income households that tend to save some of it).
i was more thinking the other way round, that an increase in unemployment decreases wages.
Increased unemployment can lead to decreased wages, depending on other factors. I had read your post above as claiming a multipart chain of higher minimum wage -> increased unemployment -> decreased wages, and my post was intended to address the first link (higher minimum wage -> increased unemployment), not the second.
i don’t think i even made the first claim, at least i didn’t intend to.
Fast food work is pretty stressful, IMO.
It can be but it’s a different kind than what I’m dealing with though. It’s repetitive busy work and stupid scheduling bullshit vs. big projects that go on for months with deadlines and coordination between vendors and half a dozen internal teams where nobody wants to take ownership of anything. Fast food work never kept me up at night.
This. Having homework is stressful. Being responsible for the uptime of systems and the inevitability of getting calls in the middle of the night is stressful. Having stuff follow you home is a different kind of added stress.
Get a union job, and you won’t have to take your work home either
We take our work home because we’re thinking about the problems and how to solve them all the time, some of my best solutions came to me in the shower.
I have a home lab and I often carry what I learn from my lab to work, I’m not working my job when I’m working on my lab, but there mental overlap is there.
I can’t imagine I’ll be solving many burger flipping problems in the shower.
Fair enough, if that works for you.
I enjoy the work/life balance too much, and love being able to leave my work at work. And being in a union makes that a reality for me.
I don’t know how being in a union would stop my brain from thinking about a problem I haven’t solved in my work day… It’s not my employer dictating it, it’s my brain.
No unions in my field as far as I’m aware.
Be the change you want to see in the world
If the floor were higher for everyone, I wouldn’t see a problem with some jobs earning more necessarily. What you’re describing will probably always be with us: some work is just harder or less pleasant.
Yes, to be clear I’m saying the floor being raised would be a benefit to me and others like me as well. Either I make more money or I can go to a less stressful job without losing income. Regardless of if it benefits me or not everyone should make a living wage for a full days work.
Anybody that’s offended by burger flippers making as much as them should be pointing that anger in the right direction. Towards their employer.
When the minimum wage was instituted, the intention was one full-time worker would be able to support the family of four suburban lifestyle. They’ve been gaslighting us for a long time.
If you want them to flip burgers for you, pay them what you’d want to make flipping burgers for them.
And I’ll even say, I don’t want to flip burgers. The thing I want to do most is my job, and other people can do other jobs. I feel like there’s always this fear, oh, who will do the skilled/educated jobs! Like, smart folks will not suddenly be like “Eh, I don’t want to be a doctor anymore because people can survive on flipping burgers.”
I get it, I love my career, but burning out is a real problem in high skill labor as is. This is especially the case for medicine. But I think the bigger concern is people dropping out of the education. Engineering school was brutal, and there were points I considered dropping out, but stuck around because it offered a better life than anything I could hope for if I dropped out. Medical school is even worse for that. Trades are physically difficult, often dangerous, and require education.
I don’t think even most people would drop their career in that scenario, but I do think we’d find ourselves in a position where there’s very little competition for jobs like these and a lot of competition for currently low wage jobs, though that would probably push more people into training for more stable employment.
Minimum wage still needs to be livable though
I just said something along these lines in a different comment, but … I have been both a barista (1 week of training-ish) and a physical therapist (4 year bachelor’s and 3 year clinical doctorate). At times, I really enjoyed both. However, doing either full time either bored me or burned me out. I would love to swip-swap between those positions (and others) just because I could because my ability to stay in my home would not be dependent on having a “high skill” job.
Solidarity!
rAmen, comrade! ✊🏼
Intentional or not, packed ramen is great whatever your wealth level
The ONLY risk of a minimum wage or Living Wage is that companies that highly skilled workers earning the same might move to less skilled jobs. For this, the only rational action is to pay your skilled workers accordingly. FAIR PAY is not difficult when an executive team earn millions or billions.
Also, Tax Wealth, Not Work.
FAIR PAY is difficult when the exec team funnels the money to themselves. Funding of their raises/bonuses shouldn’t be at the expense of ours
if they started making what I make, I’d see if they were hiring!!!
Honestly dude. If food service paid well and had good working conditions I’d love to be a cook over an office worker.
All us unemployed IT folks should infiltrate all the local jobs that are considered minimum wage and unionize them all.
Well I come from a long line of bucket crabs
I’m retired from a union IT job with a college. And now that I’ve got mine, I will go to the wall to help Gen Z and Alpha get theirs too.
THIS is why the right is so afraid of union culture
Yeah it’s weird when people typically assume you would resent people getting something you don’t have, or getting it with less effort than it took you - because they would resent this and they assume your mind must work the same way theirs does.
Oddly, though, they’re all massive bootlickers and will try to find any reason why billionaires are totally fair and good hardworkers. TheyMre just pathetic.
Oddly not tho. Surprisingly I also see this very clear assumption coming from people who are very anti-billionaire.
It’s more about the owner class than anything. If you deny support to politicians seeking to raise the minimum wage and/or vote for politicians who talk about how the minimum wage concept is evil then you almost certainly are not taking any actions which are anti-billionaire/anti-owner class.
They think rich people are really smart and deserve what they “worked very hard for”. They genuinely believe that the rich “assume the risk so deserve the money” despite them never facing consequences while having incredibly basic ideas. They hate that someone “beneath” them would make money and can’t think hard enough to understand that that would mean they’d get to demand more pay, too. There are even people who think that owners can do whatever they want as long as its legal and they deliberately ignore any nuance regarding what legality is and they jump straight over the concept of baseline morality to tell you that it’s your fault for not changing jobs, as if that’s something you can just do easily(and is if there are better bosses readily available).
All of those examples are what you get when you listen to centrist and conservative media that’s shilling for aggressive capitalism(with state-funded safety nets for corporations, of course). If you say “I don’t think billionaires should be allowed, but all the systems which lead to them are fine” then you’re a complete moron.
I don’t care, go live in your fancy gold mansions, just let me have a decent, low-maintenance room with AC and air filtration. I will sleep my ass off, then go volunteer for something.
Too much to ask for, sadly.
Genuinely I think building power lines sounds like an easier job. A lot less stressful at least. Assuming that both have the exact same hours and wage, I know which one I’d choose. If anything the burger flipper should earn more.
Frankly I think having to work outside in rain or snow trumps having a clueless 19-yo assistant manager criticize how you cleaned the guac bucket lol.
Having more than your neighbors is a huge drive to human happiness. House size has no impact on happiness. Having the biggest house on the block is a huge happiness boost. Above the level needed for minimum sustainable food and shelter, wages have no impact on happiness. Making more money than your friends is a huge happiness boost.
It’s something about how we are wired as humans. Many of us have other drivers that are stronger than the drive to have more than others in our community, but to get social support any strategy for raising the living standard floor needs to acknowledge the issue of this hard-wired drive.
That’s a very broad generalization. Lots of people need to prove their prosperity with giant houses, and other people just want a house that has the room they need and isn’t hard to clean. There are people who need designer label clothes and gold chains and people who are very happy with thrift shop aloha shirts. I don’t think it’s hardwired in at all, it’s more of a personality quirk, like resistance to advertising or how spicy you like your food. Combination of genes, culture and habit.
