L’année dernière le sujet a été abordés par @AlexisFR@jlai.lu et je souhaite relancé l’idée de dé-fédérer de cette instance.
Je navigue depuis quelque temps sans bloquer la moindre instances question de simuler un peu l’expérience de quelqu’un qui rejoint le fediverse via l’instance jlai.lu.
Les posts qui apparaissent dans le fil et le comportement de la plupart des usagers de cette instance pollue tout simplement l’expérience Lemmy.
Même sans parler de possible liens avec CCP, Kremlin etc… je pense que, à mon humble avis, leur comportement et leur façons de brigader et de diffamer une opinion qui ne diverge que d’à peine d’un poil de leur courant de penser, va sincèrement à l’encontre de l’état d’esprit de notre communauté sur cette instance.
Je me suis opposé sans vraiment me prononcer l’année dernière à une dé-fédération (étant donné qu’ils ne sont pas francophone et que j’aime bien le drama inter-instances de temps temps) mais leurs prises de positions en permanence ahurissantes et (en pesant mes mots au maximum) d’une flagrante dissonance cognitive je dois dire que trop c’est trop.
Je pense sincèrement que malgré le fait nos intéractions soit assez minimes avec cette instance je pense que sur le long terme leur influence est nocive et que, dans l’idée de garder une certaines sérénité pour les personnes et futures personnes qui utiliseront cette instance, qu’il y ai une dé-fédération de cette instance de la notre.
En voyant leurs réponses à ce post, je soutiens ton avis. Être désagréable comme ca parce qu’on met en question ton instance c’est toxique.
J’étais vraiment neutre sur la question avant ce post, mais au vu de leur brigading, je plussoie maintenant totalement le fait de les défédérer.
J’étais vraiment neutre sur la question avant ce post, mais au vu de leur brigading, je plussoie maintenant totalement le fait de les défédérer.
+1
Même avis que toi, ils ne s’aident pas avec ce genre de brigading dès que le nom de leur instance est mentionné
Edit : d’ailleurs perso quand je vais voir une instance autre que jlai.lu, je fais attention à leurs règles, ce qui clairement n’est pas leur cas vu les attaques gratuites envers OP, entre autres
What the heck, people are coming from mander too?
probably just me tbh. i have like, most of fedi blocked for being only brainrot meta shitposts and such. it keeps more serious stuff like this from smaller communities in my feed regularly even though i browse all/active mostly.
for my part i blocked hexbear within a week of joining and have not looked back, and i think blocking at the personal level is the appropriate course here.
+1! I’ve been absent… what? 13 hours and I find out what? Que notre instance est prise à l’abordage par Hexbear et que les autres instances sont autour à popcorn ?! Il se passe quoi au juste ??
Bon sang… Plus je lis les commentaires, plus j’écarquille les yeux OP a invoqué tout le gratin du fédivers avec son petit post.Just because this post is about internal jlai.lu instance policy, that doesn’t stop it from showing up in the feeds of users of other instances whose views are set to “all.”
It does, but it requires someone from that instance to subscribe the community for it to be federated. You’re on LW, but on smaller instances it’s usually not the case. That’s why I was surprised.
I want to check know how many people subscribe from mander.xyz to this community, but mander seems down at the moment.
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Bon pour revenir ici et lister quelque exemples on pour ce qui est de l’appel à la violence on a :
https://hexbear.net/comment/5511565
pour la toxicité en général on a ce post :
https://hexbear.net/post/3683187
Célébration de la violence :
https://hexbear.net/post/3628416
Ce n’est que quelque exemples de façon générale même si on peut être d’accord ou pas avec leur message. C’est en opposition assez concrète avec le message que l’on porte ici.
Edit : Je suis désolé pour les admins/modos car mon intention de base était d’enrichir au moins le contenu sur cette instance avec un débat/conversation mais à la place je suis accidentellement responsable d’avoir secoué un nids de frelons ce qui a profondément nuit à la conversation.
Excuses acceptées. En tout cas, ça ne justifiait pas leur reactions virulentes non plus. D’autres se sont posés, on prendra tout le temps qu’il faut.
D’un autre coté, ça peut être justement l’occasion de discuter avec eux, d’expliquer ce qui est problématique et de les amener à changer un peu.
Puis, ça fait un moment que c’est tranquille ici. :)
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En effet.
Pas la peine de s’excuser ! Au moins, maintenant, on a eu une magnifique démonstration de ce que j’ai critiqué l’année dernière.
J’ai été banni de memes sur hexbear pour avoir réaffirmé le génocide en cours des Uyghours en Chine. Cette instance est malsaine et répand la désinformation
lol
Hello,
Merci pour ce post.
Aurais-tu des examples de leurs prises de positions? Cela permettrait que chacun puisse se faire une idéeInutile y’en a déjà un qui vient de se présenter à l’acceuil https://hexbear.net/comment/5510780
Ca resterait bien d’avoir 2-3 exemples. Pour les défendre, si on venait venir parler de défédérer Jlai.lu à cause de comportement problématiques sans donner d’exemples, je serais sans doute un peu remonté aussi.
Pour les comportements problématiques ça va être assez simple car rien que dans ce fil ils viennent de faire le travail à ma place. Les autres personnes si elles n’ont pas encore bloqué cette instance n’ont qu’à lire les commentaires ici.
Je n’ai rien à ajouter de plus.
Ca devient un peu bizarre parce que
- tu dénonces un comportement problématique
- ils viennent critiquer des accusations sans fondement
- ces critiques deviennent les preuves de comportement problématique
Je ne dis pas qu’ils n’ont pas de comportement problématiques, mais pour que la décision soit prise de manière objective, ce serait mieux que tu donnes 2-3 exemples d’ailleurs que de ce fil.
Hexbear qui nie l’existence de génocide en Chine et me bannit pour ça https://hexbear.net/comment/5506443
Merci
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“Ils” sont des boulets mais ça n’explique pas vraiment en quoi l’instance dans sa globalité est nuisible.
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Quand j’ai lu le titre du post et vu le nombre de commentaires, je savais déjà ce que j’allais trouver en cliquant dessus.
Alors mes chers petits jlailuftwaffen, vous en pensez quoi de l’expérience Hexagonours ? 😅
Perso leur instance était déjà bloquée sur mon compte. Je les vois comme un 18-25 de JVC mais à gauche et international, les discussions ne volent jamais haut.
Malheureusement, je vois sur ce post que bloquer l’instance dans les paramètres ne permet pas d’échapper à leurs commentaires, mais bon, jusqu’ici ça ne m’avait pas gêné, donc je ne suis pas spécialement pour les défédérer.
N’ayant fait part d’aucun exemple concret, je ne vois pas pourquoi on défédèrerait d’une instance historique.
La seule participation active de leurs membres à l’instance, est, de mémoire, dans ce thread, ce qui me semble justifié.
Si tu ne souhaites pas voir le contenu de hexbear, tu peux la blacklister dans tes options de profil, comme toute autre instance, depuis une ou deux versions de lemmy.
Examples? There are literally hundreds across the !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works community, the largest anti-tankie community. It documents hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse for purposes such as these.
Here are some examples of Hexbear users and how they interact with the rest of the fediverse and how they treat others:
Denying while simultaneously justifying the genocides perpetrated by the USSR and Mao’s China
Also celebrating the systematic rape of women during the 7th of October massacres
Tankies take pride in being included with neo-nazi websites 8kun and Stormfront
One of the many posts regularly celebrating the 7th of October Massacres
Mourning the death of Hezbollah’s leader, calling him a ‘hero of humanity’
The admins encourage users to manipulate threads and troll using alts
Dehumanising the victims of the 7th of October massacres
Hexbear admins posting and celebrating Stalin
Fantasising about how they want to kill people
Racism towards muslim minorities in China
Celebrating the Twin Towers collapsing
Calls for genocide over Sinwar’s death
Calling for the death of everyone
Regularly calling every user Hitler
Calling the gulags a good thing
Again celebrating the massacre
Telling Jews to return to gulags
There are hundreds more examples, but you get the gist. These are truly deplorable people.
Closely related are the Lemmy developers themselves.
Here are the Lemmy developers calling transgender people ‘biological men’
Denying it quite often, actually
These trolls have never added anything of substance to any instance and only use your instance so they can harass and troll your own userbase, as evident inside this very thread. It’s not about not seeing their content. It’s more so why would you want to see their content? Does the above, the bigotry, the genocide, the celebration of violence and unending hatred truly have a place on jlai.lu? What does that say to your standards and your user’s wishes?
@TheFrirish@jlai.lu @Camus@jlai.lu @leftascenter@jlai.lu @Waryle@jlai.lu @eldavi@lemmy.ml @Blaze@lemmy.zip
merci
Thank for thoses links. We will read them thoroughly. :)
I also screenshoted and notified the mod team about Dessaline, one of Lemmy developper team, that participited on this thread by voting.
The Lemmy developers have an obvious bias, and it shows every single time. I don’t trust these people to be developing Lemmy and they certainly shouldn’t be the heads of the project.
Well, if so, we should fork it or migrate to alternative. There is sublinks and piefed. I prefer piefed for its ui and cool design. I will try soon mbin.
There is also iceshrimp, very beautiful but the thread can be messy. Late december they will improve the federation with lemmy. :)
J’ai clairement heurté leur sensibilité rien qu’avec le titre ça je suis d’accord. À la base je ne m’attendais pas du tout à voir leur commentaires ici surtout à cause de la barrière de la langue.
Je pensait que ça allait une petite conversation et débat entre nous et une petite nuit tranquille pour moi (il est déjà tard là où je suis) que je pourrais poster quelque exemple demains etc… mais mon post s’est affiché en ”hot” sur leur instance…
Je vais me coucher et je vais essayer le trouver quelques pépites comme exemples plus tard.
Encore une fois rien que leur interaction avec ce post reflète parfaitement l’état d’esprit de cette communauté.
Pour rajouter une petite chose même si l’on peut qualifier leur réponse comme étant “justifiée” je ne pense pas que m’accuser de soutient aux nazi, Facho et insuite partir en live sur du MAGA (même si cowbee s’est rattrapé sur la fin merci pour ça) sois une réponse mesurée.
À la base je ne m’attendais pas du tout à voir leur commentaires ici surtout à cause de la barrière de la langue.
Je pense qu’on a tous été surpris
je ne pense pas que m’accuser de soutient aux nazi, Facho
Non effectivement, je l’ai fait remarquer
partir en live sur du MAGA
Le MAGA date du poste de l’année passée que tu as mis en lien, je me demandais aussi d’où ça sortait au début.
J’ai l’impression qu’on a récupéré le ou les meilleurs en plus sur ce post 🤣
Bref, mis a part les boulets qui voient des nazis partout (ils on du ratter c/gauchisse et les quelques fritages de fachos qu’on a eu), pour l’instant je ne voit pas de problème avec la fédé.
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Je suppose que slrpnk.net les defedere aussi, je vois pas les commentaires en question.
slrpnk.net is defederated from Hexbear.net, correct.
You mean it is hexbear that defederated them?
I believe it was slrpnk.net that defederated, based on admin comments like this. More that they never federated, I think.
Oui oui, depuis un moment. Si tu veux jeter un oeil: https://jlai.lu/post/11504685
Oui j’ai vu, ils sont adorables. Je me demande à quel point ils sont réels et à quel point c’est un jeu.
Ca a l’air sérieux, c’est ça le pire
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Perhaps you should just log off instead of publicly crying about how someone made fun of you for having a bad opinion
Anyway, I’m heading back to the fucking Kremlin lmao. I’ll leave you to lauding nazis for their ‘mercy killings’
What’s that thing about nazis?
Tu peux lire plus bas, à un moment ils expliquent leur raisonnement
I went looking in their post history for the incitement to make this complaint and saw that they were denying nazi warcrimes in the Ukraine war by calling their side’s acts “mercy killings”
Ces accusations sont complètement infondées. Je n’ai jamais soutenu ces positions. j’ai même indiqué que c’était justement un crime de guerre de la part de l’Ukraine dans ce conflit. C’est une déformation totale de mes propos.
Essayer d’expliquer que un côté peu commettre plus de crimes de guerre que un autre sans nier leur existence dans chaque camps et un exercice mental bien trop complexe pour vous visiblement.
So you take this group of nazis that has locked people inside burning buildings, and you contrast their war crimes favorably to their enemies by singling out “mercy killings” as if that’s the only thing they’ve done. Contrasted by multiple superlatives towards the enemy’s spectrum of war crimes you couldn’t even list.
I never said you support war crimes; I implied you support nazis.
He doesn’t. We don’t.
Peut-être pourrais-tu donner des liens vers les posts/commentaires dont tu parles ? Ça aiderait ton argumentaire
Don’t be lazy
We ask the same for everyone, this is also a protection for you and a way for us to check the context and his explanation.
If i do as you said, i can select some comments out of context that will invalidate your point. You don’t want to give room to some kind of gaslighting ? you want to back up your argument, right ? So this is a protection.
And, also think we may not understand the same thing as you do. We may see a snail in the painting, you may see a turtle instead. So you may have to explain your point of view to people because you can understand some thing but i can also understand other thing.
As for Ukraine war crime, i haven’t read and i’m busy but i’m guessing they probably exist. That doesn’t negate Russia war crime.
I’m busy, i hope those explainations are enough and wish you a nice morning :)
Intéressant tiens, comment êtes-vous arrivés sur ce fil?
I think it’s quite funny that you want to defederate from an instance and you don’t know what federation is or how it works.
This is how:
Je suis bien au courant, maintenant je suis surpris que cette communauté ait atteint le “Hot” de chez vous avec 5 votes.
Après, j’imagine que vu que vous êtes défédérés par Lemmy.world, lemmy.blahaj.zone et d’autres, ça doit restreindre pas mal le nombre de posts dans votre flux.
Je pensais aussi que cette communauté forçait de poster avec un tag “français”, apparemment ce n’est pas le cas.
Je ne voir pas ‘français’ de tag. Tu aide moi?
Je ne parler pas français.
Comment est votre banquette ?
Je ne comprends pas.
Les plats à base de viande sont-ils de bonne qualité ?
What an odd question to ask in the first place then!
Pas tellement. Au-delà du filtre de la langue, je connais peu de gens qui utilisent All en “Hot”. Sur Jlai.lu on est surtout soit en Local (pour avoir les communautés en français), soit en Abonnements, et si on passe en All ce sera plus Top Day, Top 12 hours, Top 6 hours.
Je suis pratiquement sûr que si ouvriez un fil similaire sur !announcements@hexbear.net, personne de Jlai.lu ne le verrait.
Fascinating
J’utilise Hot sur All mais c’est franchement gavant. Je devrais essayer un des classements que tu proposes. ça pourrait ne pas être mal.
We aren’t talking about defederating but listening to his complain. I’m curious, did you subcribe to meta@jlai.lu and why ? Or was it the magic of federation ? :)
You can see this post from Hexbear standard All sorting.
Thank, so you don’t use language filter ? :)
I personally disable it so I can see more posts.
Cette communauté ne force pas le français: https://jlai.lu/post/11504685/10380145
You can’t fool me. We use the same word for ‘defederation’ except you have sloppy pen work and leave marks all over it
I recap again, the moderation stance and admins isn’t about defederating without any proof. Please, read the com of @anansi@jlai.lu, the admin of jlai.lu
@meta@jlai.lu is a place where anyone can complain about mismanagement from our part or asking defederation, improvement, advice and help.
But we NEVER EVER defederate with the snap of a finger because it does impedes users’s experience. We only do it for very serious case or temporary to stop spam wave.
This place is where we share opinion about our instance. It is not related to our decision.
I can’t believe this niche site with the population of a small village is influential enough to be working with China and Russia!
I also support it. This crying fascist has no place in the fediverse. They’ll contribute nothing to any of our discussions and even in their tantrum post it’s just the same generic
conspiracy theories about everything being secret non-white plots against them. Why bother federating with a community that allows them?Fash are not welcome here. If you have any relevant posts to share, report them.
Hello @Cowbee@lemmy.ml,
I know you are usually quite positive about hexbear, what do you think about the comment above?
From a google translate of the post, it looks like general vague slander from OP, even other instance users are asking for examples from OP.
The linked post is ableist, it uses the word MAGA---- as a derogatory term, and there are conspiracy theories about CPC connection, as well as general anticommunism, which is linked to fascism historically (I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds).
Yeah, it has been pointed out below indeed.
On the other hand, while OP should indeed provide answers, why would HappyBadger accuse this instance of being fascist? OP only made a proposition, and other instance members immediately asked for evidence to support that proposal.
The linked post is ableist, it uses the word MAGA---- as a derogatory term, and there are conspiracy theories about CPC connection, as well as general anticommunism, which is linked to fascism historically (I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds).
The comment accused the user of fascism, not necessarily the instance.
Hello,
Thank you for commenting here.
The linked post is there for context, no decision was made at the time, we remained federated with hexbear. We are going to ask the author of that post to edit it.For OP, not sure if things got lost in translation, but their point was that “Even without talking about possible links with CCP, Kremlin etc… I think that, in my humble opinion, their behavior and their ways of brigading and defaming an opinion that diverges only slightly from their current of thought, sincerely goes against the state of mind of our community on this instance.”
So the CPC theories are irrelevant, as OP is strictly referring about brigading
Not sure why this deserves to be qualified as fascist.
I have no interest in debating the broader issue, but your bolding here is silly:
Even without talking about possible links with CCP, Kremlin etc…
The idea of us being connected to either group is a harebrained conspiracy theory, so I think speaking of it as though it is credible while saying you won’t talk about it is classic apophasis, i.e. a rhetorical device for making insinuations about something you want to denigrate while dodging responsibility for doing so.
Do you think things would have happened differently if OP has just said “I think that, in my humble opinion, their behavior and their ways of brigading and defaming an opinion that diverges only slightly from their current of thought, sincerely goes against the state of mind of our community on this instance” ?
That adds clarification. My understanding is that interaction between this instance and Hexbear is limited to begin with due to the French language barrier, ergo brigading doesn’t make sense as a defederation reason, but this isn’t my instance. I do have a Hexbear account, so obviously I am pro-Hexbear.
Not sure why this deserves to be qualified as fascist.
Fascism and anticommunism are twins, I recommend checking out the book I linked.
Fascism and anticommunism are twins, I recommend checking out the book I linked.
It’s been a while that I’ve read it but iirc that’s not what is described in the book due to the difference in intent.
Anticommunism is born from the ruling/fascist adjacent class to misled less politicized people by manufacturing false consciousness. While anticommunism materialistically helps capitalism and fascism, this is not the intent of the anticommunists, while it is the overt goal of the fascists.
A dumbass being anticommunist because of gaslighting is fundamentally different from someone being an actual fascist. The former will still be able to change his mind, the latter won’t because it’s usually coming from it’s material interest.
Saying they are twins is not only a misleading, but it also hides the different mechanisms between anticommunism and fascism.
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MAGA---- is an English slur already, so I am leaning more towards slur, but we will see.
Who could have thought that on a french instance, you’d find french terms and formulas.
A mystery for the ages.
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You could ask me directly instead of whatever this is.
I accused this user of being a fascist. If 12 people are seated at a table with 1 fascist, tell me how many fascists are seated at that table.
This user is a fascist because they’re doing the same generic anticommunism routine that all of the right-wing forums do. Create an anticommunist hysteria around a nonsensical boogeyman, widen the net as the next person they disagree with is also part of the sneaky non-white conspiracy against them, ratchet the community rightward. That specific process is why reddit is reddit. If someone’s doing the same old trick on the Fediverse, I don’t care if it’s this forum with 8 monthly users I’ve never seen before or Lemmy.world/Lemm.ee with fresh content feeds. It attracts the same people and ends in the same place.
This goober thinks they’re being gangstalked by Russian spies because someone on the internet disagreed with 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝒾𝓇 𝓅𝑜𝓈𝒾𝓉𝒾𝑜𝓃. Before you clutch your pearls about me calling them a fascist, the first question you should be asking is what that position is and what’s so offensive about the Hexbear stance on it. Generally if we hate someone or something there’s a pretty good reason for it.
Tbh, your agressive terminally online ketamine fulled diatribe does not help in giving a good picture of the instance you’re defending.
Luckily, being a tanky ironically or not is not enough to warrant de-federating from an instance.
Tbh, your agressive terminally online ketamine fulled diatribe does not help in giving a good picture of the instance you’re defending.
Luckily, being a tanky ironically or not is not enough to warrant de-federating from an instance.
👍
Je suis sûr une instance où il y a pleins de communistes et anarchistes et franchement, c’est toujours LA KETAMINE
Ils adorent ça je comprends pas. Je te promets, traîne un peu avec eux et tu verras que la kétamine est leur carburant.
Pas de problème avec ça mais c’est trop drôle ahaha. Ça les rend imprévisibles et parfois ils font vraiment preuve de mauvaise fois.
J’ai jamais eu de problèmes avec eux donc je ne sais pas si c’est juste une chambre d’écho honnêtement !
You’ve convinced everyone with an attention span too short to read their comment and believe they can get the gist by reading the shorter response.
Anyone who actually read their comment and your description rightly see you as cowardly, stupid, and unhinged.
Your backhanded way of avoiding an argument is to paint their comment in a certain light and ignore its content. I haven’t seen anyone say this obvious truth out loud yet so I will.
Your backhanded way of avoiding an argument is to paint their comment in a certain light and ignore its content. I haven’t seen anyone say this obvious truth out loud yet so I will.
The point is that there is no argument in the first place, no one here intends to defederate from hexbear, and you and your mates coming here aggressively and acting like unhinged assholes unprompted in a meta-instance discussion does not help.
This post is just OP having his jimmies rumbled and asking if because of it if can cut one of the oldest instance from our fedlist.
Anyone who actually read their comment and your description rightly see you as cowardly, stupid, and unhinged.
Ah oui quand même
Everyone I don’t agree with is on drugs (which makes them an inferior person not worth listening to), a definitely-not-fascist bedtime story for smug internet liberals.
Not only do I disagree with OP and therefore agree with with your mate, but I don’t have any issue with drug use.
My issue is with the fact that ketamine fulled drivel is not the best way to communicate with people and be correctly understood, speaking from experience.
To be fair I’d love to write ketamine-fueled rants but it costs like $500 for a dose here. The best I can offer is coffee and sometimes-cannabis-fueled.
ketamine fulled diatribe
Everyone that disagrees with me must be on drugs or a russian puppet or mentally ill.
Fuck all the way off. Go ahead defederate, clearly nothing of value is lost.
Tbh, your agressive terminally online ketamine fulled diatribe does not help in giving a good picture of the instance you’re defending.
Luckily, being a tanky ironically or not is not enough to warrant de-federating from an instance.
I already said I want to defederate with you. You get a pass on engaging with this comment because English is your second language.
You’re not leaving me, I’m leaving you!
tErMiNaLlY OnLiNe
kinda yeah
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You could ask me directly instead of whatever this is.
I asked Cowbee because we had been discussing recently how interactions between Hexbear and other instances sometimes play out, so I thought it would be relevant to have their perspective on this example.
About the rest of your arguments, seems to have been addressed in this comment: https://hexbear.net/post/3694795/5510986
Even without talking about possible links with CCP, Kremlin etc…
Explain this rhetorical trick to me.
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Oh! Let me guess what your problem with that comment is!
“Pointing out racism is uncivil and deserves undivided scorn”
My guess is influenced by the fact that there isn’t much else to have a problem with
What are you whining about specifically? What about that comment isn’t to your liking?
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Thank you for your action.
I just came from a phone call with Macron, and thanks to you, he agreed to get out of Sahel, decolonize our DROM-COM, recognize palestinian genocide and form a french politburo to lead France towards communist revolution.
We couldn’t have done without you
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Thank you for your brave service. By bullying french people on the internet, you have finally undone imperialism. You can now rest, hero.
Solide
“frog asses”
Hey, look, racism!
TBH France probably made more money from slave trade and oil theft.
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lol
these people are living in a pre-hog society. we have come to enlighten them
de-federation is effectively a ban and banning at a the instance level creates centralization; which is 100% contrary to the ethos of the fediverse.
block them yourself; but don’t make that decision for other people who didn’t ask you for it.
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You probably wouldn’t want to be federated with 4chan if it was a Lemmy instance, would you? I know I wouldn’t want to habe anything to do with those assholes.
neither would i and again; i’m not asking anyone to make that choice for me. i’m an adult human being who can make choices for myself and you deciding what’s best for others you don’t know and will never meet makes you no better that spez from reddit.
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bothsidisms is a bad faith argument meant to shut down meaningful discourse and very popular with liberals; but not leftists.
hexbear is literally one of the most aggressively trans friendly instances on the entire fediverse so your example in this thread about banning hexbear makes it extra farcical.
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what double standards?
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