If only people could understand the basic concept that hating a government is possible without hating the people living there.
Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.
I think he was referring to Israel?
The ol Lemmy switcheroo.
Hold my pita and hamas, I’m goin in!
I don’t think so. Hamas makes way more sense
Reminder that Hamas is widely supported by most Palestinians
53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people”
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.
This.
Because they feel that trying to reason with Israel has zero effect.
Statistics without context are worse than lies.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
I know that Israel has been doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians, but Hamas shot back a few times so they’re basically the same.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.
lemee speedrunning their defederation
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
Shot back a few times? You haven’t been watching the news, have you
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the
terrorists that reside in your homescivilians.They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
(American Jew who hates what Israel is doing)
Is being a Jew more being a people or being a part of a religion?
I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to. For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
I mean, look at the United States
Israel claims to be a democracy and also commits genocide.
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Democracy and genocide are separate
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Israel is by definition obviously not committing genocide, the Palestinians population is only going up
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One of my favorite quotes:
If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same. - Marjane SatrapiDifferent situation, same idea.
Russians understand. Belorusians too.
Original comment has 3 downvotes, mine 9. “It’s different” it seems.
A reminder:
Palestinians are awesome!
The genocidal regime that rules over Gaza who murder innocent people while blocking Palestinian democracy is NOT AWESOME!
What about all the Palestinians internationally that are currently celebrating that massacre?
Yeah those guys are on the side of the genocidal regime.
Palestinian fascism… Hamas won the election with just a plurality of the vote then permanently suspended elections ever since. Same old story. Odd how it’s never talked about. I suppose Palestinian fascism complicates support for Palestine for the left so they pretend it isn’t a thing, while it also complicates the “them people are all terrorists” narrative ofr the right.
It’s hard to determine the popularity of Hamas now (there has been an election in over a decade and a half) in the Palestinian population. There is obviously support of the genocidal maniacs in the Palestinian populace because of those celebrations. The people that support Hamas have either been duped by their propaganda or are just straight up evil, or both.
Islamists too. Here in my country they are chanting death to Israel all over social media.
Obviously not awesome but easy to explain. I assume that being Palestinian gives them a certain - very one sided perspective on the conflict because they probably perceive Israel as an evil colonialist terror State that has been oppressing and killing them for decades.
Probably the same as all the Jewish and Christian people internationally that celebrate and monetarily and militarily support the Israeli apartheid regime even as they would kill innocents, cut off water and supplies, and kill journalists. ESH.
Palestinian citizens are given supplies by the IDF. I always found accusations of cutting supplies to citizens very uninformed.
People also conveniently ignore that the Palestinians have been getting Israeli and international aid for decades that was supposed to go into building infrastructure like power plants and water treatment facilities. Instead the money went straight into the pockets of the Fatah/PLO and Israel up to this very day has been supplying power and water to Gaza and West Bank. The Palestinian leadership was corrupt as fuck.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.
[…]
In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.
The resulting disparity in access to water between Israelis and Palestinians is truly staggering. Water consumption by Israelis is at least four times that of Palestinians living in the OPT. Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita. In many herding communities in the West Bank, the water consumption for thousands of Palestinians is as low as 20 litres per person a day, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). By contrast, an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.
leftists dont like to admit they’re not immune to propaganda
Try being gay or trans in Gaza. And see how awesome cool 😎 the Palestinians are.
We gay people must provide the palestinians with clean drinking water, and this will change hearts and minds 🏳️⚧️🙆♀️
No it won’t. You’ll be stoned for being gay just the same.
Try being a Palestinian in Gaza and see how awesome and cool Israel is. Being pro gay doesn’t change who’s the oppressor and who is oppressed.
Mass genocide is OK as long as they’re homophobic.
Because oppressing a people makes them more progressive and not less.
I agree in general, but what an image choice for the Jewish people. Hassidics are far far less awesome and far far more right wing themselves.
Yeah, it’s like picturing a Christian man wearing a maga hat, camo pants and a wifebeater he justifies the name of, surrounded by a fearfully obedient family. Like “Christian people are awesome!”
Hasidics consider the average conservative “too liberal”.
Sadly this is the same for every religious minority group.
Most strictly conforming to rules -> most conservative -> most likely to be used in media or promotion because it’s most visible
The more visible a difference is, the more likely it is to be considered in a progressive society. Humans are pretty stupid when it comes to these things.
In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Maybe stop killing each other and take it from there? No? More rockets and human rights abuse? Yeah that’ll work…
Israel could start by ending apartheid and allowing the Palestinian people a modicum of dignity and representation in government, or let them have their own state.
I would agree in principle, but there are a few issues that need to be resolved:
- What would be the borders of the new Palestinian state? Both sides feel that they have a legitimate claim to the complete combined territory and neither is too eager to compromise.
- The Israelis say that if they lift their blockade of Palestine, the Palestinians will import weapons and start a new war. It does not help that the Gaza strip is currently being governed by Hamas, a group designated as terrorists by many countries (including the US and Jordan). They claim that the extermination of all Jews is the will of Allah. Not really a group you can negotiate with.
- Both governments are using the tenuous peace to stay in power. They have no desire to solve the issue.
Stop obfuscating while the United States keeps giving Israel billions to maintain apartheid and continue the genocide against the Palestinian people
It’s not that simple. A lot of technology comes from Israel, including the origins of the Intel core iX design and a lot of medical ai and metsec technology. we benefit from the status quoe probably more than Israel does.
As a person in one of those industries you mentioned, there is nothing special about what they do, that cannot be done elsewhere (and with higher quality.)
1947 UN Partition looks the best
Wasn’t there another one or is that the original one.
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And failing that, the appropriate reaction from Hamas is to fire missiles at Israeli civlians? Fuck off.
Well given that Gaza is a defacto prison, they could also beg and pray, like they did for the last 40 years without effect. When you are faced with an opressive regime, there is only giving up or fighting. And it is not exactly like Hamas can build rockets with GPS or other sophisticated aiming systems like Israel or NATO can.
like they did for the last 40 years without effect.
Have you seen even a single damn wiki article about this place, let alone read a book?
yes i did. And in none of them just begging in praying helped their situation.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms the war is over. If the Israelis lay down their arms they’d get genocided. Hamas explicitly calls for death to the Jews and they have deliberately targeted civilian populations time and time again. Hamas doesn’t want a negotiated solution to the conflict, they want a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. There is one side here that can just stop the violence, and it’s not Israel.
If Palestinians lay down their weapons they are still driven off their land, getting murdered by fundamentalist settlers, killed by IDF and imprisoned in Gaza and the West bank.
Also many Israeli politicians are very outspoken about wanting to commit Genocide, denying Palestinians being humans and denying them being a people.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-lawmakers-kill-all-palestinians-remarks-resurface
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/01/middleeast/west-bank-smotrich-ned-price-intl/index.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
Yes, they can.
Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians. Fuck off.
They literally are the representative government of the region that started the attack and is getting attacked. They literally represent the Gaza Strip.
Hamas is about as “representative” of the population of Gaza as Kim Jong Un is of the North Korean people.
Both countries not even remotely resemble a political environment where free and fair elections are possible. Heck Hamas has killed way more Palestinians than Israelis and that includes their recent “success”. They are a dictatorship which uses indoctrination, intimidation and murder to stay in power.
So why are we defending Hamas here? If life under them is really so fucking shit why aren’t the Palestinians working with the Israelis to take them out?
I’m not defending them. Or do you seriously think me calling them a freaking dictatorship is a positive view of them? Since apparently a lot of people don’t understand it, I’m just explaining how it is. You asking “why don’t they just get rid of Hamas” is a perfect example. Because they are an authoritarian regime which has absolute no problem of killing everyone who speaks out against them. And then of course there is the indoctrination part which I also noted. That’s the same stupid question like “Why don’t Russians demonstrate against the war?” when those who do end in prison.
People acting like Hamas is a perfectly legitimate elected party is just so bloody stupid. The fact that the last “election” was 16 years ago should be more than enough for everyone to grasp as deeply undemocratic. And then of course they fail in pretty much every other aspect of what countries usually provide in an democratic country such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They also definitely don’t have a proper separation of power. They do provide some assistance to their population to keep them on their side, but that’s basically the same shit the Mafia did and they certainly aren’t representative of the areas they control.
Yes that is exactly what you should do to a population which is illegally occupying you.
Like the USSR occupied and incorporated a bunch of surrounding countries?
Yeah, it’s gotten to a point where the divide is so deep and so old and there has been so much slaughter on each side that nobody is ever going to feel like “things are fair now.“ Both groups have committed atrocities, both groups have been victims of atrocities, and it’s just become a vendetta at this point with endless retaliation.
I don’t know what the answer is to be honest.
I’ve always been a fan of just making the middle east one giant country, and divide it into thousands of districts, which get representation in the central area( which can definitely not be anywhere important.) This would require Israel and many countries to come together and prefer diplomacy to slaughter though, so it will never happen.
Islamists want to be ruled under Islamic regime as depicted in Quran. In fact, all Muslim countries in the middle east abide by this. Unfortunately, they’re also fully dead set on this.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
The potential solution would be Turkiye managing this situation but that’s even more outlandish.
I think you overestimate how many Palestinians believe this. I’m my family in gaza, we had Jewish friends. My father was best friends with a jew for many years. So many of us just want to live in peace, alongside people who do not want to kill us. Yes, there are a few zealots who believe this, and many leaders base their power directly on their bloodlust for Israel. Most of them hate Israel and their actions more than thier religion. I know Israel is much the same to us. If everyone who truly believes this died in one night, there would be no mourning for them, and a great cry of peace and relief would reach to the heavens, saying " let God sort out religions when we die, and not people sort out when we die by religion ".
Interesting. I’m Turkish, had Palestinian and Jordanian(?) friends along with Turkish friends alongside buddies who served in healthcare for both sides. Just about everyone who were religious in those groups had a burning hatred for Israel specifically. To a point where they get happy whenever things happen to religious people. We’re not just talking about some zealots here, we’re talking about more than half the people I know.
This is why I assumed it’s quite literally impossible. Interesting that it actually might be!
I know I have celebrated when Israel suffers a defeat, but not the death of regular Jews, or Israeli civilians.
All I know is that the Islamic Brotherhood students I met at Tel Aviv University very clearly wanted to kill me. I was warned off showing any interest in a non-observant muslim fellow student that was sweet on me because the very same group of Brotherhood guys beat the last person who she was sweet and left him for dead. The older Israeli Arab muslims I met that were shop owners, etc. were much more chill. And Arab Israeli Christians (think more ethnicity than religion) were very split - they didn’t like what was happening with Arab muslims, but they also had ZERO interest in being part of a Palestinian state. They knew very well where they would be treated better, much like the Druize.
I cannot speak for them, but it is very different to not want a foreigner who is not from your religion to date a Muslim, than it is to want to kill all Jews. Of course, it is very bad to take it to the level of a beating, or to make that choice for someone else, and what they did is bad. What I often see is a few zelots in a groups of people who don’t care for Jews, but don’t want to kill them. It is very difficult to stand for a stranger who is outside your culture, and defend them, without being labeled as an enemy of your own culture. My father was clear to us that Jews were not evil because they are Jews, just as Muslims are not all good because of their religion. He was friends with a small family of Jews living in Gaza near us. I do not think he would want me to date them, but he was happy that we could be friends.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
Actually Jewish-Muslim relationship before the foundation of Israel was pretty good. Including Muslims helping Jews in WW2 to escape the Nazis. There were also some good examples in the early 20th century of Palestinians and Jewish people living together.
Unfortunately when the Zionist started their project, these communities were the first they targeted with terrorism. The same militias who committed these attacks later became the core of the first Israeli army.
Another decisive factor against coexistence was once Jewish immigration en masse started, Palestinians stopped being employed as Jewish employers started hiring Jewish immigrants. Several Pan Arab intellectuals thought there could be peaceful coexistence before this point.
I’d love to watch the chaos unfold if they were made sure the civilians were safe. Azerbaijan achieved that, I don’t know why Israel and Palestine can’t.
Hamas doesn’t want to give up using their own people as human shields (not to mention the hostages they now have) and putting military facilities in immediate proximity to mosques and hospitals, because they enjoy a propaganda advantage when the mosques and hospitals are collateral damage. The Gaza Strip could have had it’s own power and water plants decades ago if the political leadership used the Israeli and international aid for building such facilities instead of pocketing it.
Except, you know, Israel literally created Hamas to put to bed any risk of Palestine uniting under an effective, secular government.
This is 9/11 for Israel in more ways than one.
One day we will learn stop arming and funding religious extremists I’m sure.
Yeah, except war is good for economy / capitalism, so they won’t stop funding / arming. That’s probably the real enemy, if they had all been suffocated of weapons and fighting resources, war probably would have been over long ago.
That would have meant Israel would stop fucking with Palestinian civilians before these rockets were fired.
While I get the “both sides” argument, Israel is absolutely the aggressor here and should be put a fucking leash like NK.
Israel the aggressor on average by a long shot, but not this time.
but not this time
Hamas started this one with a coordinated attack on 5000(?) locations.
In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Not to mention that for the hardliners who are in charge of the whole situation on both sides are benefiting from an everlasting conflict to stay in power! What do they care if innocent people (theirs or the “enemies”) are dying?
That would be great for every nation that has ever existed but sadly that’s not how things work. Unsolvable conflicting interests more often than not are solved by brute force.
Our politicians fucking love regimes that murder reporters
Calling the Israel govt “genocidal” is not fair or accurate. Israel has had military superiority over Gaza every day since it was captured in 1967. If they were genocidal, they could’ve slaughtered all the people in Gaza at any time. Instead, the population of Gaza has doubled since 1967. If you want to know what a real genocidal regime looks like, imagine the situation were reversed and Hamas had overwhelming military superiority over Israel. Imagine Hamas had tanks, F-16s, F-35s, and Apache helicopters. What would happen? The genocide would start immediately. Hamas would be slaughtering civilians en masse. No restraint. No negotiations. True Genocide.
Before you ask, I’m not Jewish and I’m not defending Israeli atrocities. I just think this is an extremely simplistic and unfair characterization of Israel.
The language lacks a nuance in between “intentional mass slaughter” and “systematic eradication and displacement of ethnic group.”
Both are classed as genocide by international conventions, even if in our heads they seem very different.
I think that’s why often genocide is used for the former and ethnic cleansing for the latter, which makes some form of sense since, as you said, there appears to be a difference.
I’m not trying to lessen the evil of what either is because I don’t believe in ‘which is more evil’ contests, just that, for categorization purposes, maybe that is needed.
Genocide isn’t about just slaughtering people, it is also about removing and displacing a people from a region, something which Israel policy definitely and inarguably has systematically been.
Are you fucking seriously going to try and split hairs over definitions (which you’re incorrect btw, genocide’s literal definition is the killing of a large group of people in an ethnicity with the goal of destroying that nation or group) so you can level the playing field of evil here??
The prior comment remarked that Israel could have slaughtered everyone in Gaza but didn’t, and now you’re trying to redefine genocide so that Israel looks worse.
Mental gymnastics aside, Hamas was fucking insane to go after children. Israel is fucking insane to go after Hamas with the human shields they have.
No amount of hand wringing externally is going to defuse this. Hubris is going to make this worse though, that I do believe.
This thread was about whether or not it’s “fair or accurate” to call them “genocidal”. The word, “literally” taken down to its roots, does mean “geno” (people) “cide” (killing), but actual definitions in use are more nuanced. From the UN “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”, for instance:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The UN’s historically been an apologist for atrocities whenever the power benefits afford the defense of the reprehensible. Pulling out a UN Convention definition when politically convenient is a disgrace, much like the UN’s history of confronting atrocities for the past 40 years.
That’s basically an ad hominem. That’s a commonly accepted definition, address the content specifically if you have an issue with it.
The international definition of genocide isn’t what you claim
Saying that relocating people is as bad as killing them seems like it’s a way to equate the level of evil from one group/nation to another. I see the pictures of bodies from the Holocaust, and I just can’t equate that to a forcible relocation.
I didn’t create that definition.
Genocide is slaughtering people, there is no other meaning. You can call removing and displacing people something else, which doesn’t change how bad they are.
If a bunch of refugees flee roaming Jewish folk running around trying to murder them (like Muslims fled India and Hindus fled Pakistan during Partition as folks of each religion roamed around trying to murder people of the minority faith) in 1948 and refugees flee the 1967 war, fearing for their safety, and then they’re not allowed to return to their homes, that’s ethnic cleansing. If you’re constantly being pushed off your land and your home in order to be replaced by settlers of another faith, that’s also ethnic cleansing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
P.S. Fuck the British (of that time) and their fucking imperialism.
And fuck the Hindus and Muslims and Jews who participated in the ethnic cleansing.
UN convention on Genocide: “Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part.” I think it’s reasonable to argue that applies to Istael’s treatment of Palestine.
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Gee do you think the population may have doubled partially because of all the ethnic cleansing that the Israeli gov (or settlers with the gov’s implicit support) have done in places those people used to live?
No, those people simply had kids.
You haven’t heard of the illegal Israeli settlements? You haven’t heard about the forced removal of Palestinian homes?
Don’t forget the forced evictions, but this is worse don’t get me wrong
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I hear this argument a lot.
And following your thread. How would you suggest Palestinians free themselves from the prison they’re all living in?
Or should they just be content with their lot?
Conflict is messy. People die. The nature of assymetric warfare necessitates a specific kind of fighting. And that’s what this is, really. Unless the Palestinians have bunkers full of modern military hardware they can use to go toe to toe with Israel with.
But maybe there’s a better way. So what is it?
Killing 250 civilians by targeting a music festival and slitting the throats of civilians on the street and spitting on their corpses isn’t a result of conflict being “messy”. Stop justifying deliberate and systematic terrorist activity
Yes it is.
Assymetric warfare is ugly as fuck because it has to be. And this conflict is assymetric as hell.
Both sides are trying to demoralize the enemy to gain what they want. War is diplomacy when all other methods have failed after all.
Unless Israel or the =est of the world wants to give Palestine an enormous cache of high tech weaponry they’ll fight like this because because it’s one of the few ways for them TO fight.
So they commit atrocities and Israel commits atrocities and round and round it goes
Saying war is messy is one of those things. Like “friendly fire”. Like all language describing all forms of war it fails utterly to convey the senselessness and inhumanity of the darkest parts of our nature.
There are no good sides of bad sides in this conflict. Each side is both, and the bitter reality is that a state of war or armed conflict is by its very nature atrocious. There’s just the desd, the living. And those who have been left behind.
First thing they need to do is depose the terrorists organisation they willingly put in charge. I imagine negotiations would go smoother then.
The better way is to not make memes they fully blame only one side.
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Your first sentence captures it. All of this is driven by ignorance and religion, it’s the same shit that’s plagued that part of the world for generations
You don’t think the massive poverty, starvation, and lack of access to water and sanitation might play into it too?
The lack of progress caused by one problem is wholly responsible for the other.
Israel controls all of the water, food, and resources going in and out of Palestine. The condition of Palestine has been inflicted on them.
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There’s rarely a simple “good guy” or “bad guy”, but the situation has clear causes that need to be acknowledged and addressed for the conflict to ever cease. The core problem right now is that the Palestinians are an aggrieved population that are denied basic human rights and political self-determination, resulting from the post-Holocaust reaction to grant swaths of land to the global Jewish population guarantee them political self-determination. Since then there’s a problem of political opportunists and, especially on the Israeli side, corporate interests, that benefit from the conflict itself and fostering extreme viewpoints based on antagonizing opposite sides of the conflict. There has to be a cultural migration towards non-antagonism, guaranteeing human rights for the Palestinians, de-escalating the conflict, and understanding that the core questions of each group’s identity basically boil down to ideological and religious allegiances that are more based on history/tradition than in good sense, since the whole us-vs-them tete-a-tete is ultimately based on these arbitrary (nonsensical) group identities in the first place. That all being said, the reason Israel so commonly is depicted as the “bad guy” in the conflict is because militarily, politically, economically, they have the upper hand on all fronts, and those facts express themselves in the overall death count in the conflict since its beginning, which is heavily weighted against the Palestinians.
… Well said.
I remember once upon a time in reddit I’d read insightful and nuanced comments like this all the time. The descent into the toilet bowl happened so gradually that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.
Thank you. Yes, I definitely know that feeling.
I wish all Jewish people of the world a happy and safe day of rest for Shemini Atzeret; peace and safety for anyone living in the Gaza region.
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Religions suck. They’re the root of all problems.
Interesting take after about a century of World Wars, Cold War and other global conflicts that where mostly not about religion at all.
They aren’t the root, but they’re a strong enabler
A lot of the times they are precisely the root
Are they the root, or are they a justification? Seems like a pretty reductive take, to be honest.
Wars have been occurring for a long time, and generally a desire for resources (including control over people) is a leading cause. Religion is an easy thing to use to get people to lay their lives on the line for you if they already have that belief. Equally it’s an easy scapegoat for anti-religious people to blame wars on as well.
This conflict isn’t just about religion. If it was then Israel’s neighbours probably would have got involved as well.
I don’t think so. The religions are an easy way to legitimate wars but they are not the first reason for them. (And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle. ~Fake News. I didn’t know what happend in Myanmar and Burma for example.)
And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle.
Unfortunately even Buddhist aren’t perfect. Just look what’s going on in Burma/Myanmar.
But regardless it’s correct that Religion often is used as a tool for parties to gain and exercise political power.
Yeah, i should have left that part out. Sorry.
No worries, it’s a something I think a lot of people don’t know so it’s good to talk about.
Ok, I didn’t know that.
That’s okay. I thought the same thing before. That Buddhism was the least of the worst because of their anti violence stance. But it turns out religion is religion.
That’s a spicy take. I’m curious to see how that works out for you.
In this case it literally is the cause. Israel was founded on this land because of the religious ties to this exact place.
Conflating Zionism and Judaism is anti-Semitism. Jewish people are overwhelmingly against the settler colonialist apartheid regime of Israel.
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Lemmy’s flooded with anti-palestinian-occupation propaganda today.
Please keep it up.
Probably American Redditors that can’t see past any of the narratives they’ve been force fed
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Im seing a bunch of things about israel right now, im out of the loop on this. Can somebody fill me in on what (if anything) happened?
Hamas launched a bunch of rockets from Gaza in a surprise attack on a holy day and then put ground fores in. This attack killed at least 100 Israeli civilians (Israel is also claiming near 1000 more injured) and has captured more.
Israel is of course going to retaliate and try and destroy the sites (surrounded by civilians since Hamas is known to try and use sensitive civilian locations as shields) and probably occupy Gaza in an effort to keep these rocket attacks from happening. Which will cause more Palestinian casualties, thus the cycle continues.
Israeli already killed more than 200 civillians in Gaza including bombing a hospital killing at least one international MFS medic.
I can assure you, that is a far lower number than have really died.
To be fair, they were very open about intentions to bomb Gazza from the first moment war was declared. PM called for civilians to evacuate to city.
and evacuate to where? Gaza is an open air prison with a population density of 6000 people/km2. The densely populated western european countries have about 300-500
PM called for civilians to evacuate to city.
Yeah that is utter bullshit from him! He knows very well that the people have nowhere to go! The Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places on the planet. Israel controls the majority of the border and all of the sea. So those routes are closed. And you can bet your ass that Egypt won’t allow 2 million Refugees passing their small part of the border.
Anyone who states that the civilians of the Gaza strip can just “leave the city” are either very uninformed or lying.
I mean seriously, just open Google maps and look at it. The area is very thin, 5-12km from the border to the sea and pretty much all city. And you can also bet that Israel for certain won’t allow refugees to hide in the open area in front of the border.
Egypt won’t allow 2 million Refugees passing their small part of the border.
Turkey hosts 10+ million, what’s stopping Egypt here? They also openly support Palestine afaik.
Expecting Egypt to act is more realistic than expecting Israel to return fire.
Egypt and a lot of neighbouring countries talk a lot how they “support” Palestine but all of them really don’t come through.
Egypt certainly doesn’t want them self to get into the same problem Lebanon is facing with just half a million Palestinian refugees.
Fuck that sounds awfull.
Thanks m8.
I posted these links in response to another comment that claimed that Israel wasn’t and hasn’t been the aggressor.
This wasn’t a “surprise”. Israel has been pushing their fucking luck over and over for the past few months and finally got bit.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/4/8/israel-is-creating-an-explosive-situation-in-al-aqsa
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/israeli-forces-storm-al-aqsa-as-hundreds-of-settlers-gather
Hamas launched a surpise attack on Israel yesterday, invading by land air and sea.
They massacered over 300 people, injured thousands, and abducted tens more.
Some of the victims are soldiers, the vast majority are civilians.
They cut up, desecrated and paraded the bodies of Israelis in their streets while chanting and cheering.
They fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli cities hoping to cause as many civilian casualties as possible.
There is place to criticize Israel and their crimes agains Palestinians. There is no place to condone Hamas.
Hamas are terrorsists, and it disgusts me to my core to see Lemmy cheer on these bloodthirsty ghouls.
If Israelis want to not get killed maybe they should stop illegally settling on their land???
So these people, who were born and raised in Israel and who know no other homes, should go… where, exactly?
Yeah. What you’re arguing for is genocide.
Not a single tear for the Palestinian families torn apart or flat out murdered to house that person. Because violence is OK when its on your side.
Nice deflection. Doesn’t change the fact that you’re supporting genocide though.
Look at this graph and tell me who is doing the genocide. Now piss off, cracker.
Charming. And another deflection. You know exactly that I’m referring to you supporting Hamas being allowed to carry out the genocide they continually and explicitly call for.
Hamas launched a whole bunch of rockets at Israeli civilians and killed many. Israel declared war as a result. Situation still ongoing
Dude, it’s a fucking ground invasion. They are murdering civilians in their homes and kidnapping Israeli citizens into the Gaza strip
Oh no they’re invading their own land. Bastards!
Invasion is a bit over the top. It is a few thousand fighters with no chance to reconquer any territory. It is an incursion at best.
“special operation”
An invasion is a military offensive of combatants of one geopolitical entity, usually in large numbers, entering territory controlled by another similar entity, generally with the objective of either: conquering; liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory; forcing the partition of a country; altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government; or a combination thereof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion
Neither can Hamas field large numbers, nor is Israel a similiar entity, as it is an established nation state with a well armed military, nor is the goal to conquer or establish authority over the areas attacked. The only criterium that is fullfilled is the “gaining concessions” part.
And comparing this to the russian invasion of Ukraine is just silly. Or did i miss the videos of kilometre long convoys driving onto Jerusalem, and hundreds of aircrafts launching from Gaza? I’ve seen some videos of guys in a motorized paraglider. But you dont want to really consider that equal to a fighter jet or attack helicopter do you?
I love that two words triggered tf out of you
Terrorist attacks. They attacked a rave with young people just there for music. The strength, size, and surprise of the attack is akin to a 9/11 or a pearl harbor for the Israeli.
It’s still more monstrous that anything Isreal have done…, and boy oh boy they’ve done things.
I’ve seen way too many photos and videos in the past day. I’ve seen a women got shot in her car from the outside. Her baby was executed on the back seat. Mind you, the religion they believe in absolutely prohibits this.
I’ve seen the video of the Israeli soldiers lifeless bodies getting beaten and limbs getting cut off. I’ve seen soldier bodies getting loaded on to jeeps, pickups or even a guy carrying a body with a scooter.
I saw the video of an Israeli woman taken hostage, with her crotch are having blood(?) stains.
I’ve seen the pictures of women that were taken hostage and their relatives looking for them in Facebook. (Technically, Islam don’t prohibit female hostages to be used as sex slaves, but I might be wrong on that).
I even saw the German girl they’ve murdered, strip and carry the body around with a pickup.
On the other side, the worst thing Israelis did were to strip down and reverse hand cuffed bunch of Hamas people. Also numbering them with paint.
Both sides are bad but holy fuck, seeing what Hamas have done in the course of a single day…, Isrealis look like they’re good guys (which they definitely aren’t, btw).
I looked for footage and i have seen none of these. Also saying the worst Israel did was handcuff some people is full of bullshit, when there is videos of them bombing hospitals and NGOs like MFS reporting their doctors killed. Oh and of course there is the constant killing of Palestinians over the years, like the murder of a journalist last year.
It’s MSF, Médecins Sans Frontiers.
To correct myself, worst I’ve seen today would be a much better sentence.
bombing hospitals
Hamas did exactly the same this time, so they’re now the same shit in different colors.
Oh and of course there is the constant killing of Palestinians over the years, like the murder of a journalist last year.
This is true, but it’s still much more humane than stripping down a dead body and carry it around the world to see. One is shitty, other one is straight up barbaric.
This video is a great example, even though it’s not the longest of specific scene you could find. Turns out she was a German citizen, a tattoo artist, only half Israeli. She was there to attend to a festival for the peace in Gazza.
It was not a “festival for the peace in Gaza”. That was a statement by CNN from an undisclosed source, also known as a lie, and has since been deleted. Just letting you know.
Thanks.
Am I the only one suspicious about the timing of this attack? Right on the time Netanyahu is under extreme pressure at home a major war comes out of his ass.
Can’t help but notice everybody loses with this war, except him. He’s the only one that takes advantage of this situation. Not Israel, not Hamas and sure as hell not the Palestinians.
There’s a stench here. Something is not right.
Is this really a win for Netanyahu though? His intelligence branch really fucked up big time. Real winner is probably any far-right groups looking for an opportunity to spout even more nationalistic bullshit, causing even more violence.
I thought Netanyahu and Likud are the far right?
His intelligence branch really fucked up big time
I agree. Almost like it was on purpose.
Though his tough guy appearance suffered a setback all he has to do is make the enemy seem greater than he is. “I did the best I could but these Palestinians are treacherous animals, I was too lenient. No more mr. Nice guy”.
Result, he has an excuse to go all-in against Palestine and all he has to do his bomb them back into the stone age (which he has the means to). He’ll look even tougher and the cherry on top of the cake is he’ll use this “war” to silence any and all opposition.
This is too much of a god send to Netanyahu to have been on accident.
This is too much of a god send to Netanyahu to have been on accident.
The idea that someone benefiting from a catastrophe means they must be involved in it is insane. After 9/11, sales of “Only Time” by Enya went way up. The whole country was in a panic and wanted to listen to soothing music. Since Enya benefited from 9/11, by your logic, she must’ve been involved.
you: There’s a stench here. Something is not right.
also you: This is too much of a god send to Enya to have been on accident.
I think it’s funny how people went from “something doesn’t feel right” to “Netanyahu was the mastermind” in less than a second.
Hamas did this of their own volition, I’m not questioning. I’m questioning though, how vulnerable Israel was to this attack and how Mossad never saw this coming.
Your attempts at distancing yourself from your own argument by claiming that you were “just asking questions” does come off a quite disingenous.
I’m sorry if you misinterpreted me. It would help if you read my argument without immediately making assumptions and jumping to your own conclusions.
I wrote exactly what I meant.
People question the timing of the attack and hint at larger conspiracies EVERY TIME there’s a terrorist attack. They did it on 9/11. They did it on 7/11. They will always do this and it will always be stupid.
I dislike Netanyahu, but it is simply insane to think Netanyahu coordinated an attack of this scale with his good buddies Hamas. Please seek help.
it is simply insane to think Netanyahu coordinated an attack of this scale with his good buddies Hamas
Yes it is. And you’re the one who came up with that. I never said anything of the like.
To be fair, Netanyahu is always under extreme pressure at home. He’s a terrible statist and a horrible person.
Israel and Syria were about to sign a peace treaty.
I think you mean Israel and Saudi Arabia.
The one other winner is Iran, but ya, I did find it really strangely timed.
Maybe the plan was to keep on poking and hope for a reaction and then lunch a police action to show strength, and repeat. This is the playbook of Netanyahu after all no?
So it makes sense he would know how to best react to this.
And’s he’s not above killing Israelis to get his way. Just ask Sharon or Perez.
Uhhh did you not see they’re already talking about forming a new unity government and ousting him after stabilizing the security situation? That’s hardly a win for the president running on the phrase “I’m the only one strong enough to protect you!” Something similar happened after the yom Kippur attacks 50 years ago where the current president was basically squeezed out of the government once the situation wasn’t so dire.
I hope you’re right. But I’m afraid he’ll know how to play hos cards. If he does, he’ll be untouchable and democracy in Israel is doomed. And the Palestinians too, that goes without saying.
loose = opposite of tight
lose = opposite of win
Corrected
Auto correction is a thing. And so are people who don’t speak English natively, though I do know the difference between loose and lose.
This part of the image has me dying. The cutesy simplistic art style would fit in a kindergarten class but it’s about war crimes lmao.
“Sorry Sophie, January is spelt with a J for jam, not G for genocide.”
