First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them.
Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified.Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the terrorists that reside in your homes civilians.
They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.
Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.
I think he was referring to Israel?
The ol Lemmy switcheroo.
Hold my pita and hamas, I’m goin in!
I don’t think so. Hamas makes way more sense
Reminder that Hamas is widely supported by most Palestinians
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.
This.
Because they feel that trying to reason with Israel has zero effect.
Statistics without context are worse than lies.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.
lemee speedrunning their defederation
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
Look at thier comment history. Defederating is their go to response for everything
Shot back a few times? You haven’t been watching the news, have you
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the
terrorists that reside in your homescivilians.They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.