So I’ve realized that in conversations I’ll use traditional terms for men as general terms for all genders, both singularly and for groups. I always mean it well, but I’ve been thinking that it’s not as inclusive to women/trans people.
For example I would say:
“What’s up guys?” “How’s it going man?” "Good job, my dude!” etc.
Replacing these terms with person, people, etc sounds awkward. Y’all works but sounds very southern US (nowhere near where I am located) so it sounds out of place.
So what are some better options?
Edit: thanks for all the answers peoples, I appreciate the honest ones and some of the funny ones.
The simplest approach is to just drop the usage of guys, man, etc. Folks for groups and mate for singular appeal to me when I do want to add one in between friends.
Cunts
We can close this thread now. The question has been answered.
instance name checks out
Threadkiller
Found the Australian
In New Zealand of all places!
Kiwis call each other cunts almost as much as aussies. We insult each other just as much, but we have better taste.
And we taste better
They wish they could be our western island.
Oi! You’re a good cunt!
I’d accept bloody beautiful bastards as well.
Ah, finally! A worthy alternative.
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Fucks
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Shits
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Turds
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Maggots
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y’all
Y’all doesn’t get enough love. It is gender neutral and extremely versatile.
Vosotros agrees.
Ustedes if you’re less formal or you live outside Spain 😁
if you’re less formal
What a fun way to phrase that. You’re not wrong but it’s making me giggle.
Or in German: euch
I’m under the impression that you pronounce it the same way this cat looks.
You know… that’s about right.
😂😂😂😂😂
I still wonder why English (a Germanic language) doesn’t have its own pronoun for the plural 2nd person like German (euch) or Dutch (jullie), I think it kinda helps with distinction between talking to one person and talking to multiple people.
The problem is… what pronoun should we choose? I think “yinz” would sound kinda cool, but nobody outside of a very specific spot in the US actually uses it (other than myself I guess).
I agree. It’s the plural of “you” that should be the official standard, since it disambiguates “you.” It can even be broadened to include larger groups via “all y’all,” as in, not just y’all in talking to, but all y’all in the house.
It can replace “guys”, but not “man,” though.
The plural of you is yous or ye. In Ireland at least.
It sounds cringeworthy if you’re not American though. The standard way of saying it is “you lot” and other dialects, like mine, have “yous”.
Here where I’m from in the US, you occasionally hear a “y’alls” and now I’m going to start using it as a cultural gap between your dialect and mine.
Where I’m from people just assume you’re a hick is you say y’all. It’s not very common in the northern, out Midwest of the US, but everywhere in the south.
It’s become the go-to in my company
Do you work with me? I’m in the US south and my EU colleagues love “y’all” and have started using it (ironically or not :) pretty often.
Warms my heart.
I have no hint of a Southern accent, but when I moved here “y’all” became almost an instant part of my vocabulary.
A LOT of my company is remote, but we are headquartered in Providence Rhode Island.
I can’t do it, I don’t want to sound like I’m from the South.
If everyone starts using it, it won’t sound southern any more. C’mon, you know you want to.
Take it from them!
And, for larger groups, all y’all.
you’uns
Youse if you’re a Geordie.
further down under you may hear “hey, yous lot…”
Or if you’re near Pittsburgh, “yinz” is the proper spelling/pronunciation.
I use y’all a lot and im near Chicago
I’ve started using it and I’m Canadian.
I’ve started using it and I’m north of Canada … In Detroit
Did you know that you can be north of Canada … in California?
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-75f887668c7f322a0dd1a226e128cea3
At a more northern latitude than part of Canada. Detroit is directly north of part of Canada
TIL
What in the world. They need to fix that on the next patch.
Me too, but I’m from 'round Minnesota so it’s more like ja’ll.
For those not in the US south and afraid of being judged, “all” on its own is an option.
“Hi all” is unlikely to raise any eyebrows
“Hi everybody!”
yinz
Bingo. I use y’all for everything. Even the singular. It’s casual, neutral and relaxed.
Scott the Woz on Lemmy? :o
“Hey y’all, Scott here.”
yall sounds super trashy.
A lot of people use “folks” for plural.
I feel like “guys” is fairly un-gendered but people disagree with me. Personally, I haven’t used the word “guys” to refer to anything male in what seems like forever.
“Bud” and “fella” are good singulars.
I used to have a maths teacher who called almost every number “guy”.
“And this guy goes to zero, while this guy goes to infinity!”
I really, really wish we could degender “guy” and “guys”. I know plenty of people of all genders that use the words in general to describe people, objects, concepts, everything. The only holdouts are people that insist on it specifically meaning males. Ironically, these people are often the hardcore feminists.
If other English words can change their meanings and be claimed/reclaimed by certain groups, why can’t others?
Take guy! Use it to describe whatever you want! Free it of its historically phallic shackles!
Yeah, I agree with you gal, while we’re at it I wish we could degender “gal”, “chick”, and “doll” too. Equality for all!
This sounds not to dissimilar to those who argued that legalizing gay marriage would lead to people marrying horses or their cars.
How’s that? I’m not arguing against anything, I said I want more words to be disgendered
How come people seem to only want words that were originally masculine coded words to be disgendered, but don’t want that for words that are originally feminine coded?
My car married the horse down the road last year
Guy was originally gender neutral as it was used to call someone stupidly bold (iirc). The term was most often used toward a single gender that was known for being stupidly bold and became synonymous with that gender. That’s how it became gendered.
I’m a cis woman in IT, I’m guy, dude, man, bro… I don’t really care. You can change to make a specific person feel more confortable but most woman don’t care to be dude or guy
Bud is very rarely used for women (or at least for me), but it is one of my favourite things to hear tbh
“Guys” is ungendered.
Reconsider whether it’s worth being friends with people that insist on fighting over the term “guys”.
And if you are surrounded by a lot of particularly sensitive people, just call them “friend” or “friends”. It works for people you both like and dislike. Glorious.
Sure, but as a professional (teacher) I’m not willing to put my career on the line by challenging a sensitive parent. A few years ago we were told not to use that word, and when it comes to things like that, I do as I’m told.
“Listen up you little shits”. Perfectly non-gendered!
That makes sense.
Teachers have to do a lot of stupid shit these days.
Aw yeahhhh, everyone’s into guys 🫦
(well, except aro/ace people maybe)
Modifying my language choices is literally the least I can do to make people feel more included, so anyone who can’t fathom doing that is for sure, not worthy of being a friend.
If you are in the Midwest, Guys is absolutely gender neutral.
Edit: downvote me all you want guys, it won’t change the truth.
Meh, people who want to fight over the term ‘guys’ are in the minority.
They can probably just be ignored.
It is indeed.
In Australia the gender-neutral term is ‘Cunt’.
A wise man once said, “I’m a dude, he’s a dudes, she’s a dude. We’re all dudes. Hey!”
Strange though, that when you ask most men how many dudes they’ve slept with suddenly, she’s not a dude…
There’s a very big difference between “dude”, referring to someone you’re talking to, and “a dude”, referring to someone you were talking about.
Not to me there isn’t…
It’s like the difference between “my shit”, “your shit”, and “that shit”. You’re not actually referring to your own things as feces, or calling it “shitty”. It’s just your shit. As in “Don’t touch my shit”. But when you’re referring to someone else’s shit as “your shit” or “that shit” it’s more derogatory. Like, “clean up that shit” or “get your shit out of here”.
The context changes “shit” from derogatory to neutral. Similarly, “dude” can be both gender specific and neutral depending on context.
Note that people are still allowed to prefer not to be referred to as “dude”, but it’s a gender neutral term in many contexts nonetheless.
In the '60s, I made love to many, many women, often outdoors, in the mud and the rain, and it’s possible a man slipped in. There would be no way of knowing.
Then educate yourself. See definitions 1 and 2 for noun and definition for interjection.
Ive generally always agreed with the former comment, but I’ve heard this argument a few times and it does demonstrate the disconnect well. I’ve switched it up to a simple y’all.
Yep. Something that can only ever mean “neutral” or “man” isn’t neutral
That’s just how our language works. You can also use the word “fuck” in many ways that have wildly different meanings.
It’s funny how “just how it works out” always leads to “neutral” words having double meanings that equal “man” but never “woman”
Maybe it’s not “just how it works” and maybe it’s just bias…
You’re literally arguing that this word should specifically exclude women, while complaining that double meanings never include women. It makes no sense. Why wouldn’t you want to take power over the word to make it apply to women too?
There is no world where “Check out that dude” will mean a woman.
It will always be “neutral” or masculine.
And that’s not neutral.
I have zero interest in fake neutrality
That’s because context matters.
“You’re shit” and “You’re the shit” mean completely different things
Of course. No one literally thinks that “dude” always means man.
The issue isn’t the obvious truth of the different meanings. The issue is that those different meanings aren’t neutral like they claim to be, because they rely on the idea of men being the “default” state of people.
There’s a reason there isn’t exactly a large number of words in use that can men “woman” and “everybody” and that’s because most men would be uncomfortable with that.
Yet somehow, the opposite is fine?
As a former resident of San Diego I have no problem sleeping with dudes. Because everyone is dude.
People think they’re clever when they ask “would you sleep with the dude?” My response is " bold of you to assume that I haven’t." Everyone is dude. You can try to twist things as much as you like but dude normalization reigns supreme.
I was talking about the default assumptions people make when they hear the word. Your circumstances don’t come in to it, unless your claim is that most people share your experiences
In San Diego the default assumption of “dude” is that it can be literally anyone or any thing.
The people there accepted this decades ago. It’s not one person’s experience. It’s a shared experience of millions. It’s a geographically specific situation with the Smurf language phenomenon. Any noun can be Smurf and everyone there understands the smurfing meaning when it’s smurfing said.
Out of the mouth of babes… 🥰
I believe that sentiment was also uttered by another wise man. A man of his time. Mr. Jeffrey Lebowski.
Try the following for groups:
Hey folks, how’s it going?
Listen up assholes!
Greetings, gumshoes
I say “greetings earthling(s)” but I also like gumshoe! Also definitely adding “listen up assholes” to the rotation, my coworkers appreciate your suggestions!
Listen up assholes!
“Fuckers” is gender-neutral.
What’s up, cunts
Works best if they’re your friends and also you’re in Australia
“Foolish mortals” is my go-to gender neutral form of address
I’m AFAB enby, saying “you guys” and calling me “dude” is fine. Those to me aren’t gendered anymore. The people who get offended at general terms like these for groups of people need to touch grass.
But if you’re dead set on it, embrace y’all lol. Just don’t say it with a southern drawl and you’ll be fine. It’s a fantastic gender neutral term. You can also just train yourself not to add in the “you guys” to the “what’s up” phrase, and maybe just say “what’s up with you?” “What’s up with you all?” Etc.
“Offended” is a bit of a strong word.
Many trans folks are, understandably, bummed out when gendered terms that refer to their AGAB are used to refer to them.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trying to avoid causing that brief moment of dysphoria. That just feels like a thoughtful and kind thing to do.
It’s good that OP means well, but also there are so many of us who do not care and are not affected because we know the speaker is using a generalized term and isn’t (usually) being malicious with it. I call several of my cisgender girl friends “dude” and “bro” and I’ll call men “girl” as a joke sometimes (like, girl what are you doing?). Many of these terms simply have completely lost their original gendered meaning in a lot of contexts.
That’s great, and it’s nice that you don’t have to deal with that jolt of dysphoria in those situations.
I’m simply saying that it’s also common (and okay) to not be entirely comfortable with those terms. Especially from strangers or acquaintances.
I don’t think seeking to reduce the linguistic pattern of male as the default is a misguided effort.
I’m also on Team “these words have lost their meaning” but often feel opposite to OP’s intent
When people go out of their way to force inclusive language to a degree that feels unnatural, and especially when I’m the only trans person in the room, it feels like I’m being singled out for my identity. It’s extra uncomfortable when they make (often incorrect) assumptions about my body while doing so.
That said, I will also never fault someone for trying to be inclusive, and ofc always respect other people’s preferences.
Good point dude
No southern drawl? Y’all is like our one positive contribution don’t take it away from those of us who ain’t bigots
You can also just train yourself not to add in the “you guys” to the “what’s up” phrase, and maybe just say “what’s up with you?” “What’s up with you all?” Etc.
This is likely the best solution, but also a hard one. Thanks for the perspective though.
Yeah I agree, bro, but I wouldn’t use guys or dudes on old ladies
Well no lol you gotta read the room sometimes 😅
Comrade.
☭
The simplest approach is to accept language is inherently gendered, and at a certain point it is exhausting to either take offense to everything or walk on eggshells.
I’m southern, so I use y’all almost exclusively lol
Mortals
Meatbags?
Everypony.
An oft overlooked option that leaves no one indifferent.
Cursed
But very truly
leaves no one indifferent.
