ok thanks, but where’s the list of these apps?
iOS and Android. If you have one of those people are listening.
Comments like this try to make you give up on privacy by making it look like all is lost from the get to.
They are lying, don’t believe them, there is a lot you can do to protect your privacy.
Eh, you can be reasonably sure that GrapheneOS or other Android ROMs without any Google Play apps is private.
No
Both of these apps have device-level notifications to let you know when an app is listening. I promise they’re not. There was a service a while back that was claiming this in their advertising and it went public and their partners all scattered like flies. No one wants to be associated with that sort of thing. It’s unnecessary anyway.
These type of articles never list the apps they’re discussing.
May be even dozens
But… they can’t access the microphone without the user explicitly allowing
Only on iOS. Also a lot of apps can present valid uses for microphone access, which prompts users to allow unlimited malicious use
Not only on iOS. I use Android and my microphone is always off unless I allow a specific app to use it, and even then, I have the option of only allowing it for that one time. Including the phone app.
Mic and camera are always off.
What happens when you answer the phone?
A little pop up comes up saying something about “getting the most out of your phone” with the option to turn the mic on for the app that’s requesting it (phone app). Only turns on for the call. Just gotta tap the screen once.
I keep the mic and camera options at the top of my quick-… whatever they call them… options, so if I need either one for something else, it’s super easy to turn off/on.
Android shows a little green logo in the top right if the mic and/or camera is on as well. So if I ever do enable them, it’s easy to remember to turn them off again.
Thanks I’m gonna try it out for a while
It works great for me. I’m using a Pixel with stock Android, so I can only speak to how it behaves on my phone. I know sometimes carriers add/change shit.
Check out GrapheneOS
I can be absolutely certain no apps can access my mic in the background. Even when in the foreground, there is a hot-mic indicator.
Here’s the misleading part:
Tap on one of those “while in use” apps. You’ll see there is no option “allowed all the time.” It doesn’t exist.
“while in use” is top level, and changes to “while using the app” when you actually look at the permission. They really mean when the app is running. And many often run in the background.
Because it is software-based access control, it is impossible to guarantee that access really has been disabled. Thanks to Apple’s design, we now live in a world where users are not supposed to detach batteries or physically turn off microphones and cameras; it’s all software-controlled. The problem is that software can be hacked and have backdoors. Also, thanks to Apple’s smart design, users can no longer upgrade the memory sticks on their Mac Minis and MacBooks. Why do I say it is all Apple’s fault? Unfortunately, other manufacturers copy these design ideas…
Tell that to Facebook. Shit, I’ll talk about something with my wife and see ads about it ten minutes later. Been happening for years.
That’s monitoring you and your closests’ other behavior, as well as monitoring then nudging you towards wanting certain things. The ad itself is the last nudge in that chain that tries to go “you wanted this, don’t you?” after all of the other thinking it’s making a case for your life being better with it.
my wife and I had been married for 2 years. been together for close to 10.
not once did we EVER say “Adirondack Chair”. Just never came up in conversation. we were broke as fuck and couldn’t afford something as superfluous as one of those.
One day, were driving down the road home and see one on the side of he road.
what’s that?
looks like an Adirondack Chair
Adirondack Chair? For free?
yeah, it looks broken though.
we get home go inside. I sit down to veg on my phone on the sofa. what does Amazon put in my “things you like” feed? mother fuckin Adirondack Chairs. Google news feeds? Adirondack Chairs on sale.
My wife had YouTube videos that were reviewing Adirondack Chairs.
this was ten years ago. Imagine what they’re doing now…
This is stuff they could’ve gotten from location-data, or if your wifi was on, as you drive through different peoples’ wifi connections (both seeing where you’ve been, and hooking the data from you into data of people in your area to form connections of what’s trending and what they can get you to think about)
I’m not saying they’re not mass-surveilling in the most efficient ways they can, but hot-mic while sounding frightening, is the least useful tool ever for their means, and as has already been mentioned in this thread, android auto locks out that permission now anyway, making this a bad focus in the sense that it is not over just cause they can’t get to your microphone.
It’s more likely that your wife or someone nearby was further researching the same topic you were talking about.
Facebook and other ad companies use your location, relationships, and other data they already had on you to serve you relevant ads.
At this stage, they know more about you than the government, or your wife.
Bullshit. The amount of times I’ve had random conversations about odd topics for the very first time with my wife and the fucking subject appears in a FB add three hours later.
Nope, go peddle your corpo propaganda elsewhere.
I’ve read about this phenomenon in the past. Generally it’s found that due to audio processing cost and the sheer amount of other data easily gathered, there’s no reason for them to snoop with your microphone because other data is so readily available, much easier to process, store and ship.
I read about that recently as well. There is a problem though. Your phone can turn your voice into text instantly. It’s a feature built in to your keyboard. They could turn the audio into text and then transmit the text only. Saves much data that way.
Honestly these days they could process the audio on your phone with a small audio classification machine learning model, although nowadays phone os’s show if the mic is in use
I tested this with my Facebook app in 2013. Found a Spanish radio station, set my phone down next to it overnight, and for several weeks I was seeing ads exclusively in Spanish. Deleted the app the first day I saw them in Spanish, and deleted my account not long after that.
My wife still uses them after 5 years together and me pointing out all the times it’s obviously eavesdropping on us, and she’s even been creeped out by it before. Still uses it…
Unless my microphone and camera have physical switches, I will assume they are being used. Those little “your camera and microphone are off” icons in the corner of the screen don’t reassure me.
This has been tested and proven time and time again. Google and Apple give apps a method to access the mic that the OS can allow or deny. This is what the apps are supposed to use.
Facebook doesn’t use that method for passive monitoring, only for active engagement. Don’t looks like it’s working when you go the use the thing and it’s disabled but it’s still listening to you.
If you must use such a social network, never ever ever use the mobile app. Use the website or don’t use the service at all.
Did you receive the Spanish radio signal over the traditional airwaves or streaming. Was it a digital radio, as those can also be tracked.
It was a stereo from 1987.
Ye Olde Analog airwaves, no fancy digital nonsense.
Go ahead, make TVs more smart. We literally removed our TV thus weekend. If you want me to upgrade it, please removed the spyware.
Next TV that breaks and we won’t have one. I’ll do a projector for movie night and that’s it.
My tvs are connected to an SSID that can’t hit the internet. I blocked them before but my dumb ass neighbor left their WiFi unprotected and my tvs just connected to them because it couldn’t get out the internet on my network. So I created an SSID logged them in and blocked it from the internet. It doesn’t bounce to open WiFi anymore. If I block it completely from the network the WiFi just disconnects from the network because it can’t hit anything. I have LG’s.
That is an insane thing to have to do. Having to manipulate your TV into not doing something you don’t want or require it to do.
Why is it even legal for it to just hop open networks automatically? Sure, if you leave your wifi unsecured you’re dumb and anyone can access it, but it’s still not a network you have permission to access
The fact that they just desperately jump on any network is absurd. Its acting like malware.
It’s not an act!
Same. The only ‘TV’ I currently own is my monitor. Fuck that shit, I’m so over modern television as a concept.
This might just push my fear of targeted ads enough to give in to my idea of a nearly soundproof box for my phone when I’m not using it. :(
You could remove the mic and pretend it’s a modern iPod 😁
Just install an OS that allows per-app microphone permissions. I’m running LineageOS and I can tell it for example to only allow Whatsapp mic access when I actively open the app. Actually according to the article, the same can be done on plain Android too.
Use NextDNS with strong filters and the DDG app with App Tracking Protection turned on. While no filter is 100% perfect, this combo stops the vast majority of privacy-invading shit from getting to 3rd parties.
I use shizuku for hidden api/shell access…the devs of that have an app called appops which, you guessed it, allow you to change any appops permission for any app. Allows denying/ignoring clipboard access, device identifiers, location, microphone, etc.
appops screenshots
:::App Ops still works? I haven’t used it in over a decade.
Beer pong
Yeah that sounds like an app user who would be okay with his audio being recorded…
An app where all you end up recording is “Bro! Bro! Bro! Broseeeeph! Let’s gooooooo, Bro!”
me to my phone right now
I thought Android has a non bypassable green dot in the notification bar when the micro is on ?
It’s probably bypassable too. And, anytime the microphone is used, you have no idea the multiple extents that data is being used for.
Apps can use the microphone in secret and there’s no way to know when they’re using the microphone? This is a major security flaw in Android!
Are you kidding? You do know that basically anything is hackable, right? And that’s why old people put tape and stuff over their cameras if they don’t just outright unplug them, right? It seems silly, but like… They’ve always been right, with their insane passwords and avoiding using their real names and stuff.
afaik Android System Intelligence and apps using that will not show the mic icon
I feel like you’re missing the point. Showing a green dot still doesn’t solve the problem or make it ok, especially when this technology works in the background and can capture sound even while the device is in your pocket, like the article says.
I don’t think we should have to be on the lookout for a little dot showing up on the screen constantly. It shouldn’t even ask for microphone access unless it’s absolutely essential for the app’s main purpose. “Features” like this should always be off by default and buried deep in the settings. If people really wanted it (they don’t), they’d go in and turn it on themselves.
This is literally how it works. In modern android you need to explicitly grants microphone permission to apps the first time you use them. Now, if they are clickjacking the permission notification, that’s something different, but the article doesn’t mention this. You can download your own microphone logs and verify if you are curious about this.
You’re absolutely right but that wasn’t my point. I thought that if one of my installed app was doing this, at some point I’d have seen it without even being on the lookout.
Users need to know what this dot means, and some like children or the elderly will likely not understand the ramifications
is this still a surprise to anyone here?
Anyone whos said anything outloud and then immediately got an ad should know by now that it isnt some conspiracy, its easily testable by not searching something and just talking about it while having an app open, the more obvious one they track is dms, if I dm someone something (text based not posts) ill get ads or posts related to it.
Im assuming they target your wifi too, because my ads change to reflect what I do on other devices too (always noticable as a hobby hopper)
I remember a bunch of people freaking out about this a few years ago and an equal number telling them they were paranoid.
You can talk about stuff and your phone will just magically start suggesting related items. Why would anyone be surprised the monitoring device in their pocket is monitoring them?
Yes.
Not to you or me, but there are tons of people, even here, that are absolutely incredulous towards the idea that its possible.
I mean it implies that these apps are both violating permissions (in many cases) and the android visual indication of an active microphone. So far I have seen no actual proof that this is the case. Mic activity is logged. You can debunk this yourself easily.
I’m part of those people. The usual argument is that everybody’s phone is listening all the time, without agreeing to permissions or showing the mic notification or anything like that. I’ve never seen any proof of that. This article is about a bunch of shovelware apps (Pool 3D, Beer pong: Trickshot, Honey Quest etc) that aren’t even listed anymore. There’s nothing about them skirting permissions or hiding the notification.
People see the headline and assume it’s Facebook et al.
Not helpful
I used to work for a mobile advertiser, and we installed hella bloatware on phones.
This idea was floated a couple times but was deemed not very effective cause you’d have to store and process hours and hours of audio data that didn’t tell us much more than just having a week or so of GPS data, your Facebook profile, and your phone IMEI.
It’s pretty easy to see if you’re near a Popeyes and what other IMEIs are connecting to the same tower, extrapolate that to you being near your wife and you and your wife thinking about shit on the Popeyes menu.
Boom targeted ad/video for fried chicken.
The rest is general tech paranoia leading to Apophenia.
There’s no microphones or cameras, it’s just the already gigantic mountain of data anyone who uses a smartphone is constantly broadcasting getting ground through the big data machine that has been the pillar of all tech since the last recession.
But wouldnt it be a moot point if I restrict access to GPS for all apps?
How much of that data is from Google/Apple (e.g. Google Maps)?If you use android google grabs your GPS data regardless, you have to root and disable it.
Apple does the same thing but they didn’t have their pants occupied by third-party network’s fingers like google did until the pixel came out.
Google maps is basically a beacon for AdMob to target you nearly perfectly.
Also using “fine location” in any app grabs the nearby wifi list and sends it to Google/apple if it’s not cached.
Also most ad providers these days have made deals with major networks that let them tell what tower your IMEI pinged off of.
It’s why google tried to push android/ad IDs, way less info for the networks to advertise over, and it also put the tracking in their hands instead.
So graphene os ir a degoolged phone solves the first thing
you’d have to store and process hours and hours of audio data that didn’t tell us much
I mean that could be solved as simply as a local transcription service…
And do what? Sentiment analysis on the conversation you were having?
Remember semantically aware models are still fairly new and even they lack the context for a particular field of text. That’s something even the new fancy LLMs struggle with.
Unnecessary when there’s way better targeted models trained on years of data that people willingly send as part of everyday smartphone use.
Sentiment analysis on the conversation you were having?
Among other things, sure. More simply, keyword analysis.
Remember semantically aware models are still fairly new and even they lack the context for a particular field of text.
All of these “models” are useless garbage but it doesn’t stop them from trying to absolutely cram them everywhere they can.
Unnecessary
None of what they do is “necessary”. They could just ask you what your relevant interests are and you could tell them, but they do it anyway. They go to great lengths for any seemingly insignificant amount of data they can get their hands on.
tf-idf will give you the keywords you want to target ads
Also, have you ever been butt-dialed by someone? 99% of the time you can’t understand a single word, let alone enough to make any semantic sense out of.
If it’s trying to figure out if you’re watching Stranger Things it can look for when your stationary at home and just needs to record a few seconds at a time every few minutes. I don’t know how the fingerprinting works. It might be able to run locally and not use a ton of power. We’re talking Shazam, not full text transcription.
Here’s the thing. If you watch that, Netflix know your IP. If you’re on an Android TV box, Google will know your IP.
Odds are your phone is on the Wifi. Linked through IP. Now you get ads for Stranger Things on your phone. It doesn’t need to listen because everything is so leaky. You are linked on so many devices.
Article is from 2018. Someone must have pasted the url from hacker news where the same story was dug up recently.
Is that to say that it’s no longer valid? Or just that it’s old news? The list of apps associated with the software is still pretty extensive; Google Assistant even showed up.
Well these days Android asks for more permissions so I guess it would prevent it in many cases by preventing access to the microphone for apps where you don’t want to allow it…
Android also shows an indicator when any app is accessing the microphone or camera now.
https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2023-21083
There are probably other exploits around that as well
it has always asked for mic permission so no change on that front
Yeah, most people just click beyond that in a millisecond because it’s just an an annoyance between them and the needed dopamine.
I think app stores can do a whole lot more, especially with he insane amounts of money they’re earning from it (hello and fuck you, apple). They can make microphone access a special privilege that requires the developer to make a special request that gets verified on the app store before the app can be released, for example
7 years is a long time in tech.
Google Assistant is supposed to listen for the “Hey Google” trigger word. How else do you expect to use your device hand-free.
It also does it completely locally, using an on-device chip. If your phone has the Google assistant on it, disable all Internet and try the wake phrase, it’ll work. Nothing else does, because it has to phone home for that, but the wake phrase handling IS on-device. Can’t even turn the flashlight on otherwise tho lol, even if you use what we used to call the power button (new name for it? Lock button?) and type what you want it bitches about internet
No, 2018 wasn’t 7 years ago… No… Wait please…! :'(
Old news. It was old news in 2018
Right around the confinement my sister and I were talking about getting some seeds for my mom. Neither of us searched for seeds. From that point we both started to get ads for seeds, many for the ones we had talked about in particular. This thing was so unequivocal that it proved to me that our phones listen. Maybe they don’t analyze, but they definitely listen for words actionable for an advertising purposes.
More likely, your late’ish habits and searches combined with age and another mountain of data correlated with people that have the same thought. We are no snowflakes.
Edit: I should say, if this example is true. I’m not saying you are lying, just that if you are, it’s not a “gotcha”. This thread is making me paranoid! :)
The thing is you can test it, simply never search anything related to it and see if you get ads, maybe I accidentally searched something but it works, or it could be wifi based maybe they searched something and it effected everyones ads, this could make sense if my roommates searched stuff and it effected my ads
I happened to say out loud to my girlfriend that there is a chance (a small one) that my ADHD medication can cause something called TD (Tardive Dyskinesia).
Suddenly, our Netflix is showing adds for a new medication for it.
That’s why i always forbid access to my microphones by apps. Many AI apps will also remember what you discussed long ago.
OS doesn’t need permissions to access hardware
How can they tell I’m popping?.. Oh…what if I stopped flushing? So is that why some people don’t flush? They’re trying to be stealthy!
I keep my phone in a chip bag and only pull it out to LARP the preparation for the assassination Franz Ferdinand in general terms without naming actual places or names.
That’s a good way to always keep chips on hand.
