I just want to vent a bit - I started seeing someone a few weeks ago. Old fling that I ran into through some friends that got rekindled, and I was excited that it seemed like more than just casual hookups this time. But there were some yellow flags I ignored that turned out to be red flags, and now I’m feeling frustrated and hurt.
Dude for real dropped the line that men are more “capable” and “logical” on me. That gender studies are “indoctrination.” I told him we should probably stop seeing each other if that’s really what he thinks. It wouldn’t be logical for me to keep seeing someone that thinks lesser of me, now, would it?
I’m grateful to have some guy friends that I turned to after I left, cuz I wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode, but I know it’s not true or helpful. Just like there are women out there that have internalized misogyny, there’s feminist men, enbies, etc. We’re all just people and we’re not monoliths beholden to differences in biology. This is just sexist, manosphere bullshit in particular
Anyway. I’m still feeling angry and wanted to put it out there for some support and solidarity. Anyone have a recent win they’d like to share or something?
ETA: Thank you so much for the conversation y’all! I’ve been trying to keep up but I gotta get some sleep. I’ll check in later but hope everyone has a good day. Keep up the empowerment! 💜
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If it helps, those guys treat other guys the same way.
Also if it helps there are women who treat other people this way too.
This seems akin to racism to me. My favorite quote about this is from President Lyndon B. Johnson. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
My dad isn’t this kind of guy, but he is an old white guy that watches Fox News. And it’s the same thing with them. He has bought any number of supplements advertised on Fox News, and believes wholeheartedly that one day the world will finally understand the deep wisdom he believes in.
I don’t believe you can categorize people as a simple either or. “You’re a red piller or not.” “You’re a conservative or a liberal.” But I do think you can apply a personality type to people. And it sounds like you sussed out a guy who really needs to feel superior to other people. I fucking hate those kind of people. So good for you, there are a lot of people who may have never figured it out, or weren’t socially aware enough to see it. It sucks this turned out to be what it was, but celebrate the fact you’re a strong enough person not to put up with it
You may already know about this but your description of sexism as akin to racism made me want to mention intersectionality. It’s an analytical framework used to describe social relations as it pertains to privilege and discrimination. There’s a good reason you felt that way. Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny, which is considered to be the original form of oppression
Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny
Could you possibly give a brief synopsis of why they think misogyny is the base model rather than (eg) racism? Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense, but I’m curious about the basic theory.
Patriarchal society developed before the concepts of race we use today. Much of how society was shaped stemmed from the tribes and clans of the pre modern era.
How pre modern are we talking? Because it seems like homo sapiens vs neanderthal would’ve had more cross cultural discrimination than men and women within the same species.
Because cultures made up exclusively of one race were still misogynistic. And because there’s actual physical differences between the sexes that are used to wrongly justify discriminating against women.
A monoculture being misogynistic doesn’t really show that the base model is misogyny. It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.
It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.
Your previous comment:
Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense
I assumed you understood your own point that you made, so I’m not sure what you’re asking for now.
Others have already answered your question but I thought I’d leave you with an article about it in case you want more information. There’s a lot more to be said on this than a few comments and the odd article but it’s a good enough place to start
Thank you for your comment. I’ve heard of intersectionality but didn’t quite understood the idea behind it, as it was only in passing mentioned.
Now watching a talk by Kimberlé Crenshaw
I’d go a step further: all is modeled after power. If you feel* you have more power it’s because the other part is “less than you”, not because you both have different strengths.
*Feel, not that it’s real.
Everything I wrote is about ways systems exercise coercive/domineering/oppressive power. They’re not modeled after power, they’re a consequence of heirarchies and the inherent power imbalances that are necessary for hierarchical power structures to maintain their existence
That’s a good quote. And by good, I mean helpful in understanding the cycle of assholery.
I think my response would be “and yet, so many men still fall for shysters like Andrew Tate”.
Well done on getting out. He sounds like a
dadsad case.Oh, that was one of the yellow flags! I mentioned that I’d been following the case with Tate, and he’s a sex trafficker. Homeboy said “well it’s not proven in court” like…sir lol. Fucking yikes. Definitely not ignoring that in the future
Didn’t he literally brag about sex trafficking??
Yes 😭 but I figured at the time not everyone has seen or heard that. The only reason I know is I follow Bruce Rivers on YouTube
like a dad case.
That is one wild autocorrect.
Freudian autocorrect.
Ooh, I figured it was some new slang…
Have you met his dad?
The Internet lets all the village idiots find each other
But it also lets us all find each other
yeah that’s what they said
It even let’s the village idiots, of village idiots find each other.
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Glad you dodged this bullet.
I had a coworker-friend who was too into right wing Internet stuff, and trying to deprogram him was hard work. People spend hours soaking up glossy garbage and find communities of like minded people. I think I only made any progress at all with that guy because we were already friendly over work and video game shared experiences.
The guy from your post is probably on some “manosphere” website complaining about how his misfortune right now. Maybe one day he’ll realize he’s the primary architect of his poor outcomes.
You know, I’m something of a man myself…
…and that dude’s a dick.
It’s so fucking tiring. Youtube is constantly pushing that shit to me for some reason so idk if it’s really so widespread or if the Algo thinks I’d fall for it
There are people and groups paying big money to put those ads in front of as many eyes as possible
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But there’s interesting shit too :(
I have had a youtube account for a very long time, I mostly use it for music and how to videos. I don’t watch any of the political talking heads or life coaches or influencers. But if I leave autoplay on and don’t create my own playlist, it only takes 3 or 4 videos until it starts suggesting or even inserting these bullshit fucking videos into my list.
I avoid youtube because of it. If I go there to watch something, its because I am looking for that video alone and never spend time watching anything random. I cringe so hard when my nieces and nephew watch it and I can see some of these snakeoil fuckheads in their suggested videos list.
I just use newpipe x sponsorblock or libretube. Everything works like an rss feed and things are going great.
That’s fucking rough. The manosphere is such a sad thing because it’s con artists and assholes profiting off selling men the idea that they can be worse people. Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
I will second that there are great feminist men out there. My metamour is an amazing guy who doesn’t tolerate any toxic masculinity or misogyny and clearly tries to lead by example on the front of being masculine as fuck in a healthy and positive way.
Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
This is such a great line. It works for any toxic worldview/belief system.
If it helps anything, I can imagine men usually assume they are as an individual more logical and capable than other men as well. Projecting this on women is just even easier as other man will agree.
In my experience, the real thought bubble is probably closer to “Look at all these people who have their shit so together. I’m such a loser. I hope they can’t figure out that I’m faking it.”
Edit to add:
The people who really are losers (as opposed to just believing they are) put others down to try to build themselves up.
I agree with this thought and it’s precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af) who come up with this idea
Uhhh… I mean, not to defend this asshole, but isn’t this just as sexist a thought?
I think you may be interpreting “men” as all men, but I think the post meant, “precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af)”
That is, the men who say things like this tend to be men that aren’t smart enough or are simply too narcissistic to realize it’s wrong.
I think you’re right! I actually realised this a while after I reread this but I never really bothered to write about the epiphany 😅
Good on you. Next time you want to go “fuck all men” remember that would be stooping as low as a misogynist, only on the other side of the road.
The silver lining is that pain helps people see flag’s true colours better. So you will (I hope) not waste time with someone else showing similar warning signs next time.
There’s technically not a single wrong word with your comment in my opinion. But, respectfully, don’t you feel it reads as a bit condescending and admonishing? Especially when rereading the OP and then your comment in succession. The OP said they just wanted to vent a little here but then go on to barely vent at all: they just say they ‘wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode’ but didn’t since they know it’s not true or helpful. As I read it they just felt the (understandable) initial frustration but immediately worked through that feeling like an adult.
Yes, that’s actually why I didn’t reply to them. The first part of the comment comes across like they didn’t read what I wrote directly after, and I’m not interested in repeating myself or getting defensive over having a brief reactionary response to emotional abuse. Thank you 💜
Well I’m sorry it came across that way. I’m not trying to attack you or upset you at all, just hoping to give you a different perspective on why what you did was right. I repeat, what you did was right. I’m glad you have a solid support group irl now and I hope you keep it for life, but from experience that’s not always the case for everyone, and there is also the unfortunate possibility you may have a bad experience with a partner again- which I hope you don’t. But if you do find yourself in that situation, I’m hoping my previous comment helps you see you are better prepared to face such situation again in the future.
I didn’t mean to be condescending or admonishing. Of course OP knows better. OP also mentioned she has a good support group which is what helped in this case. But from experience, sometimes groups and friends come and go, and so do problems with partners. I’m only hoping my comment helps OP see why they were right in doing what they did and maybe give a different perspective to someone else reading the comments.
You are allowed to get annoyed at an entire gender. Just get annoyed then calm down then move on. Never judge yourself for an intrusive thought. Judge yourself based on what you actually say and actually do.
And good for you for moving on.
I’m a dude, what is the manosphere?
Andrew Tate subscribers, people who say “red pilled” a lot and dudes who attribute their lack of admiration from others to their height
Hard to give exact but that should put you in the ballpark
So bizarre, the internet has just opened so many stupid people to various forms of grifters, but the toxic masculinity crowd are the absolute worst. Sorry your old friend turned out to be a turd. Glad you’re smart enough to recognize it and move forward with your life.
You’ll find someone kind and worthwhile - just takes sifting through a fuckload of hay before you find the needle. Unfortunately you found a worm instead of hay this time - gross, but just toss it to the side and keep searching. 💜
Tbh for me it’s been hard to keep putting energy into it, every time I break up with someone else I just feel like all that energy was wasted which is stupid because I definitely learn things from each relationship but god damn I just wanna find my human. ffs. Ngl I turned 30 and was just like well either I grow some thick skin and get on with it or I’m gonna fuckin die alone lmao. So easy to just give up after a shitty breakup and just be single… Idk, no lesson there - just sharing.
You asked for wins so here’s mine - I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about 3 months now and signs are good even post honeymoon-period. She actually cares and doesn’t have gender expectations of me at all, which is refreshing because I work somewhere that I’m basically expected to be masculine and it’s nice to get to be the little spoon occasionally and not have to put on a stupid mask of projected confidence and stoicism I feel like I have to at work. She doesn’t judge me if I cry a little. We both go out of our way to do nice things for each other and it actually feels like it might be a legit partnership - I’m cautiously optimistic this time! ☺️
The “win” is that I see much less if that kind of discourse on Lemmy.
Sorry for you, OP
Yeah, the replies here have been really heartwarming. I’m glad to be here:) thank you
Honestly, back on Reddit I also didn’t see much of this, at least not sorting by highest upvoted.
It was more of a thing on Reddit back in the gamergate era. By 2017 it had faded to smaller communities
Just yesterday I was telling a female coworker about how toxic masculinity is such a hard thing to recognize for men and even more difficult to overcome. The example was how the two guys who hold a senior IT position were always fixing problems in a vacuum and not sharing with others how it was fixed or what the problem was. And how that is hurting the whole group.
I absolutely disagree with your guy friend and I am sorry that it worked out like it did. Good for you for making the right choice. I hope you find a much more healthy relationship soon :)
The men I have met that either endorse or handwave-away toxic masculinity are really fragile and often have so many other problems in their lives that maintaining any kind of relationship is impossible, even with other toxic-masculinity-type guys.
Ugh this shit makes me so MAD!! I’m sorry you had to experience that, and I’m proud of you for recognizing the warning signs and leaving.
Yeah sure, it’s not all men, but it sure seems like all women (that date men) have dealt with this garbage to the point where they have to constantly be on the lookout for these same shit. And these guys know that it’s a problem, so they hide it and each flag you see isn’t necessarily red (cause maybe he’s just oblivious/misinformed/joking/whatever), and you need to keep a list of these maybe-problems and make a determination if is the one that means all these other things were actually red flags. Also - everyone is excited and thinks their partner is the best at the beginning of a relationship, and it’s hard to identify a red flag when you’re wearing rose-colored glasses.
“Schrodinger’s douchebag” is the guy who says something problematic, then decides whether it was a joke depending on the reaction he gets. Women collect a bunch of Schrodinger’s red flags, that only become glaringly red when you already know the guy’s a dick.
I’d HIGHLY recommend the book “Why does he do that” for both men and anyone who dates men. The author works with abusive men, and discusses the root causes of the problematic behavior that so many women experience. TL;DR: Men have deep-seated expectations for how their partner should behave and make them feel, and deviations from those expectations are met with anger. I’m not abusive, but reading it helped me identify similar thought patterns that I had, and I’m a better partner for it.
I think there’s a seed of truth in “fuck all men” since all men ARE exposed to problematic worldviews and the “traditional” set of expectations for a relationship are patriarchal. Yes, there are exceptions, but “men” as an abstract group hold those views, and FUCK those guys.
