I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
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Civil liability. You cannot sue in state court without personal jurisdiction over the maker, you know, in case they make a car with a fuel tank that explodes everytime you tap the fender or something. However, if they have a physical business footprint in the state, it’s fair to sue them there.
It would be the end of auto recalls, and soon after the end of auto safety in general, because the makers would force their cases into whatever singular federal court that they pick and just whittle away the law of product liability one case at a time, sort of like how Republicans file all their challenges to federal immigration laws in Brownsville, Texas. Elon Musk would love that.
E: I see we’re just downvoting things we don’t understand this morning because we don’t like car dealers. That’s discouraging. I’m encouraged by a 2021 Supreme Court case, Ford Motor Co. v. Montana that seems to have returned some sanity to personal jurisdiction in product liability cases. Still, a physical presence in the forum state, even if it’s by an independent dealership (not a requirement in all states)–which stands in the shoes of the maker due to its equitable and contractual privity–is the lodestar of personal jurisdiction. Without strong long-arm jurisdiction, regular people are further doomed to the recklessness and wilfull disregard by which manufacturers will sell products in order to maximize profit.
Dealerships aren’t owned by car companies.
Can’t this be solved by updating requirements to allow vehicle sales?
Jurisdiction and service are part of due process, and come from the Constitution.
Yeah, there’s probably a way.
You’re saying that a customer can’t sue companies that don’t have a physical presence in their state, but because they sell their product though an unrelated third party I can sue them? I’m not a lawyer but that sounds like bullshit.
The real reason for the continued existence of car dealerships is lobbyist money. The NADA is very politically spendy to maintain their members’ legally required middleman status. And it’s bullshit. I can buy a laptop directly from Apple. I can buy a bicycle directly from Cannondale. I legally CANNOT buy a truck directly from Ford. I can configure it etc online but the order is then sent to a local dealership for processing and they can add whatever “fuck you because we can” fees they want.
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that’s a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren’t even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
set maximum profits aside
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
He’d be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can’t start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its “partners.”
Henry Ford? I think he’d be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
I’m putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that’s going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
Toyota is a bad bet when it comes to EVs.
They clearly have no interest in selling them.
I think they are just being very conservative on their lineup. They’ll hold on to hybrids till they can absolutely rock the EV world. Technology that improves EVs generally improves hybrids also and they will just sell better because they are more flexible.
Well that’s not going to work in Europe, where the EV mandates are hitting now. I guess it’s Toyota’s plan to cede one third of the world car market to European, Chinese and American manufacturers.
They’ve been openly working on new battery tech that’s apparently going to change the entire industry. I’m pretty sure they have plenty of interest in selling them, they just don’t have the tech they want for them yet.
Those types of announcements are their equivalent of Tesla’s “full-self driving next year guys!” every year since like 2015?
Toyota has been claiming that since 2010. They are no closer to a “solid state battery” that they have been raving about for the last 13 years. They don’t even sell electric cars in Japan!
Toyota is widely considered to be the furthest behind the technology curve of all global car manufacturers, aside from maybe Lada.
They’ve got a huge share of the hybrid market. Why release something sub par (expensive, low range, needs to be plugged in) my guess is they let Tesla and other companies fight it out and learn from them wait for the infrastructure to catch up then sell to the common person not just people who can afford to have a less practical car.
Also power generation capacity needs to increase for everyone to drive EVs. Just think of all the power that is currently handled by burning gas in personal power plants.
Though some of that will be mitigated by less need to refine gas and transport it to every gas station.
This isn’t really the case, as there is a lot of spare electrical capacity available at night time, which is when most people charge their cars. That’s also when electricity is the cheapest.
We charge our two cars off of a 110 volt charger. It uses less electricity than the water heater in our house.
This isn’t really the case, as there is a lot of spare electrical capacity available at night time, which is when most people charge their cars. That’s also when electricity is the cheapest.
We charge our two cars off of a 110 volt charger. They use less electricity than the water heater in our house.
Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That’s a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that’s assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I’m seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
I’d argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
I’d argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it’s a main thing.
30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I’ve seen start at 30k.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
Then there’s depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don’t hold their value.
Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I’ll end up having to go with someone else.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k.
Ehhhh not anymore… this could just vary by location, but these days it’s not easy to find a used car like you describe for under 10k, unless it’s 15+ years old with 150k+ miles on it, then maybe you’ll find something in the $8-10k range. But that’s a roll of the dice. A car like that might only last you a year, if that.
The used car market in the US is completely fucked since COVID. And knowing how capitalism works, I imagine this is the “new normal” when it comes to used cars, and we all better start getting used to it.
I did some used car searches for people in the last month and there still seemed to be reasonably affordable options in that price range.
It may be subcompacts or similarly non-glamorous cars, but you can find low mileage, somewhat recently made cars for under 10k.
Right. And those cars were one third of that price in 2019.
A junker like that isn’t something you’d expect to last longer than maybe a few years, it shouldn’t cost $10k+.
Sure, but they’re still options for people who need a basic, functional car for a few years.
I’m not saying prices haven’t gone up, they have. But there are still affordable options and the service life of a semi-modern ice vehicle from a decent manufacturer is probably longer than it ever was.
Specifically, I saw options for cars around 10 years old, some newer, with less than 50k miles for around $7k.
Specifically, I saw options for cars around 10 years old, some newer, with less than 50k miles for around $7k.
I would love to know where, because that’s what I’m looking for. Around me, for that price, it would have at least 120k miles
I waited for Honda to come up with an electric or even a plug-in hybrid van, and gave up. Bought a Model Y.
Not saying 30k isn’t alot of money, but the average price for a new vehicle is in the mid 45s. Cars are just expensive.
I think what you’re saying is really important to the overall discussion. The initial cost is only one factor when considering cost of ownership.
You might be able to buy an EV for about the same price as a similarly equipped gas-powered car. But instead of oil changes and mechanical upkeep of the engine, now you have a whole new set of systems to maintain and repair. There aren’t a ton of repair shops out there yet for EVs. Even though there might be fewer mechanical problems overall with EVs, the cost and difficulty of getting a repair can be much higher.
Then there’s the battery issue. A gas car engine will remain mostly the same in terms of mpg and overall power output throughout the life of the vehicle. Sure, there will be deterioration, but it could be much worse with batteries. I’d be somewhat hesitant to buy a used EV because it can be difficult to know what state the batteries are in or how much longer they will last.
For comparison, Chinese companies sell EVs like hot cakes in Asia for <$15K. They sell it even cheaper in the mainland.
$15,000 is a cheap affordable price.
😡🤬 How dare you suggest we buy Chinese electric vehicles
There’s an Australian company targeting that market, although AFAICT is vapourware so far, and imo a little too low performance for the price
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It’s all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Oh man I would love an affordable Honda e in North America. I’ve seen them in Europe. What a nice little car.
Move to Europe! And get free medicine as a bonus.
I live in Canada. I already have free healthcare. Though not as good as in Europe ngl.
As an American I wish I could
Huh? There are a ton of small EVs that are much cheaper than that. The Nissan Leaf, for example.
Nissan leaf, Chevy bolt (which won’t be sold next year) and…??? Everything else is at least 35k starting.
The Bolt has an odd marketing approach behind it. While it may be true that the Bolt will technically be discontinued, there will be its direct successor (built on the Ultium platform)
Also, as a practical matter, you can cut $7500 off the price of any new EV in the US because of the tax incentive.
There is a very real reason why certain classes of cars are EV and not others- you have to be able to charge at home/work to have a good experience. That normally means having a garage, often in a single family house. Apartment dwellers need not apply. Unfortunately, these are also the ones that buy compact cars, meaning there isn’t much of a market. The suburbanites that are eligible to charge at home mostly buy SUVs and more expensive sedans.
As I understand it, the $7.5k isn’t any EV, but EVs that were assembled/built primarily in the US. Many weren’t compliant with that legislation. Not out of spite or anything, but because manufacturing wasn’t quite ready to comply. That led to a number of vehicles sitting ineligible for the 7.5k break. As well as consumer confusion over which ones could be discounted. Overall, a transitional growing pain for a crappy industry that relies on monthly sales.
You are correct, and the exact definition/requirement has changed a few times. But many (most?) EVs for sale in the US are eligible. The vehicles themselves are assembled in the US, the big sticking point was the battery. It’s something that gets buried in the details rather than advertised at the top. I can confirm the Chevy Bolt is advertised at ~$35k, but in the details you can see that it’s eligible for the rebate, effectively bringing it down to ~$27.5k.
A detail to confirm when shopping, but one that is common.
A lot of trucks and SUVs these days are so big they don’t even fit in garages.
Renault Zoe is an other. Was 30k like 5-6 years ago
Cars you won’t see on the US market of course.
I got ahold of a British car magazine about 20 years ago and was really sad to see all of the awesome small cars and trucks we don’t get because Americans are dumb.
Nissan Leaf is 41k MSRP in Canada, I’ve never paid over 14k for a vehicle. Willing to go in to 20s for an EV because of the gas savings though.
I had saved for an EV for my last vehicle purchase but then the pandemic hit and I started working from home, was driving very little, and I instead used that money to improve the efficiency of my home and upgrade the furnace to heat pump, replace some windows, etc. The amount of ghg’s offset just from not using propane to heat my home vastly outweighs the amount I’d offset with an electric vehicle. I think people need to think about what makes sense for them, an EV is a luxury purchase, but if you’re lucky enough to own a home then there may be better uses for that money.
So instead of a nice 50k EV I bought a Fit off someone for 8k, then I bought a $900 shitbox Fit for parts. Costs $70/mo in insurance and I put about the same in gas per month. I will likely improve my home’s efficiency further if driving habits remain infrequent rather than buy a product like a car.
Wtf car are you buying for 14k? 14k Canadian no less. Did you last buy a car in 1993? Or are you talking about used cars, which isn’t what this conversation is about.
Obviously used, only way I’d ever justify buying a new car is if it was an EV under 30k. The “conversation is about” whatever anyone thinks is relevant to the topic so deal with it.
Obviously used. I bought a 2 year old Honda civic in 2019 for 18k Canadian. Like OP, I’d be willing to go into the high 20’s, hell I’d even do low 30’s for a sensible EV.
I am not interested in a 60k SUV or a 100k pickup EV. Who the fuck is the target market for those EV Ford pickup trucks?
Comparing the price of a new EV to a thoroughly used ICE car isn’t very meaningful.
Maybe not to you but that amount of money is a lot to me, and how I spend it to strategically offset my own ghg emissions is something within my power. Like I said I spent it on offsetting my propane use instead of a vehicle purchase, not only do I save money every day because of that but it had a much bigger impact on my ghg emissions. If a new EV is 60k and you barely drive, yet every day you’re heating your home with ghg emitting fuel, that difference in price is meaningful insofar as there are tonnes of co2 that aren’t in the atmosphere.
It is meaningful when an equivalent used EV is nowhere near the same price, and often comes with a battery replacement bill attached and very limited range as well.
ICE vehicles depreciate to some extent in efficiency, but nowhere near the rate of second hand EVs.
I was looking at leafs in the 8k range years ago (pre-covid when money was worth more) and the one I found had like less than 100 miles of range per charge left in it.
I’m holding out for a proper hot hatch. Something like a VW Golf or Mazda3. Leaf is a bit too small.
I was hoping Volvo would make something like this, but I don’t know what they are doing now and realized they costs way too much …
Volvo acquired Polestar and they have some good EVs, but nothing small or cheap yet. Small, cheap and funky - that’s what Fiat is doing right now.
I might consider fiat now that I don’t have to worry about how small the engine bay is.
With the new 500 estimated to start around $35k in the US, Fiat lost “cheap”. Super uncompetitive at that price though, we’ll see what happens.
Can get a nearly new Polestar 2 for that. The $650/mo insurance bill killed that idea for me though.
Didn’t Hyundai announce the Ioniq5 N edition? It’s more like a 600hp thing though, not a 200hp golf kinda thing. More race car than hot hatch.
Also maybe don’t make me buy a car through a dealership. Why can’t I just order and car and it gets delivered to my house instead of making me pick it up from a dealer that gets to charge whatever they want for being a middle man on top of the cars already being too expensive.
Side note and probably hot take but I think if manufacturers were serious they would be rushing to phase out most of their combustion vehicles. If people want a new car it’s going to be electric and if they don’t want EV then they can find a nice used car and pay a premium for gas.
Dealerships in the US are a cartel backed by the government. Multiple states have laws banning direct sales - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes
Bullshit. These dealers don’t want to sell EVs because they can’t bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.
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I’ve been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven’t budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I’m interested in range, so I’m wanting a Limited RWD but they aren’t being stocked.
This article screams “I’m not doing my job and it’s all your fault!”
There’s a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There’s a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn’t have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It’s been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
Wrong! They will let it crash a bit and everyone will panic and see that shit is about to get real. The government will offer to defer the pain by bailing out the very rich and get things moving again, it’s the only way the government at the time will be able to hold onto power. People are fucking idiots so they’ll do nothing because they don’t like being uncomfortable for a short time even if it means they are getting slowly buttraped over the medium to long term
And the best part is you who foresaw it and tried to warn everyone, will have to pay personally towards the bailout
The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
Yeah, dealers around here have a huge markup over MSRP, “because there’s so much demand.”
Okay, I can wait.
This is bananas to me. The new model is out but last year’s model isn’t discounted? No wonder nobody likes dar dealers.
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
They’ll also fail to mention that it’s the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they’re definitely moving.
I don’t know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Yeah, smthg smthg capitalism, smthg smthg free market, amirite?
Don’t forget “too big to fail.”
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However, what those dealers are leaving out of their argument is that BEVs are not the only vehicles sitting unsold on their lots.
In fact, new-vehicle inventory is at a two-year high, according to Cox Automotive research.
As of the start of November, new-vehicle inventory volume in the US was sitting at a record 2.4 million units. It is safe to say that those are mostly gasoline-powered vehicles since the inventory level is currently higher than the number of EVs that the US will produce all year.
The truth is that the current interest rates have affected all automotive sales, EVs or otherwise.
It’s true some of those people who placed reservations for EVs last year are reconsidering their purchases now, as highlighted by the >group of dealers, but that’s not because they are not interested in EVs anymore. It’s because they can’t afford the several hundred >dollars more for the monthly payments now, thanks to high interest rates.
Some wont Stock them https://electrek.co/2023/05/09/us-car-dealers-evs/
I legitimately want to know the source for “they can sell them, they just don’t want to order what people want to buy.”
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When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable “security” etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn’t that I didn’t want one, it’s that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn’t budge. Fuck off.
There are tons of used bolts at the electric car dealership near me, I think they start around $15 or $16k.
I want and have wanted an EV since 2013…can’t afford one. So to be clear, it’s not a matter of wanting, it’s a matter of making an affordable one.
That and long distance travel are my concerns. Will I have to keep stopping for long charging sessions. Will there even be a charger on the route at all.
A third concern is how safe the lithium batteries are for charging, it would have to be inside my garage that is on the 1st floor. I guess it’s probably not too much of a concern but I worry about even leaving small lithium batteries charging unattended.
You could drive from New York to la in a model three with about twelve 30 minute stops. Given that it’s a multi day drive, you can even fold a charge or two into overnight parking. While that is more than a gas car, it’s not horrible.
New York to Miami is about six stops. I would have to stop around the same amount of times in my relatively fuel efficient ice (30 mpg), though (some) of the stops would be significantly shorter.
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Tesla cars have a route planner built into it that will send you to the fast chargers along the way.
Some of the other newer non Tesla EVs do the same thing. There’s also a free app called a ‘better route planner’ that does this to for any car.
BYD have made great strides in that area. good, cheap EVs.
$32,000 minimum is not even close to being cheap
BYD’s least expensive EV is far less than $32k USD, but in any case I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.
how you gonna buy one in the US?
Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.
I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn’t like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
No one expects they should be able to install a gas station in their backyard to buy an ICE vehicle. The issue is infrastructure.
Even with an outlet who wants to slow charge a plug-in EV? The infrastructure isn’t there and the cars are too expensive.
Slow charge is probably fine for a lot of folks. If you have a 240 mile battery range, travel 30 miles in a day and charge 80 miles overnight, you are at full charge from 0 in about 5 days.
No plug at all though means you don’t charge at all, and commercial fast charging isn’t that much cheaper than gas.
commercial fast charging isn’t that much cheaper than gas.
I could be wrong as I have no experience charging an electric vehicle, but my understanding was that it was far cheaper to charge an electric car battery than it is to fill a tank of gas. Talking like $3.50 vs. $60 (both rough estimates, the exact numbers themselves aren’t the point, and we can look them up if needed) for full charge vs. full tank.
Maybe I’m wrong, and the “commercial” bit in there makes a big difference (as it usually does).
Oh yep, not the same person here but price varies widely.
In my apartment complex, we have Blink network EV chargers at $0.03/kWh which is a crazy price. The complex next door’s Blink chargers charges $0.50ish/kWh (both of those are Level 2) and our apartment rates (for the hypothetical out-the-window Level 1 charging) is somewhere $0.14-0.18/kWh.
DC fast charging for trips will likely will charge closer to that $0.50/kWh mark depending on the location and will be a problem for those who don’t have lower-cost charging at home.
That’s a big range for “home” (but still commercial) charging and depending on the efficiency of the vehicle, the cost per mile will vary. The range will likely be around 2 mi/kWh to 4 mi/kWh.
They should make batteries that swap out completely so you can load a fully charged one in in a few seconds and let your old one charge while you’re off driving somewhere else. Or you just exchange the battery permanently like with some propane tanks.
Nah, more like swappable cells. If Battery energy density was good enough for what you’re suggesting, no one would have range anxiety and would be eager to buy EVs. Those batteries are huge.
Most people who have an EV now are slow charging at home daily. And seldom need to use a public charger for their daily driving because of that daily overnight slow charging.
Where I’m at, most people with an EV are getting priority parking at the grocery store, workplace, and shopping centers, charging while while they work or shop, and never think much about charging at all unless they’re taking a road trip.
Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
This is the #1 reason I won’t be able to get an EV any time soon. We live in a townhouse, and while the HOA gracefully ‘allows’ us to install chargers (because its illegal for them not to allow it), the way the rules are set up it’s practically impossible to actually install one.
For example, here’s our bylaws regarding EV chargers:
- All Charging stations require approval – The application should discuss where the charging station will be mounted, the type of post used to mount it, and, in the townhouses, the path that the charging station wiring will use to get to the common ground. The townhouse owner is also advised that the installation of a charging station on HOA common ground requires a legal agreement between the HOA and the homeowner regarding maintenance and liability of the charging station.
- Chargers of 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2) are allowed. It should be noted that while it is possible to use a 240V extension and there are some 240V extensions sold as charging cables, at this time, the use of such extensions is illegal in Maryland and will not be approved in an application. All 240V outlet plugs must be directly wired to the electrical panels of the house.
- Under no conditions is it acceptable for a charging line to be stretched across a community sidewalk. For a temporary installation of less than 6 months duration, residents may apply to have permission to place a tube under the sidewalk in order to run a 110V extension while their permanent charging station is installed.
- All permanent electrical lines must be buried in conduit according to code and go under any sidewalks, ramps, or gutters. No 240V electrical wires are permitted to be installed under community sidewalks.
- A charging station must be placed inside a single parking space. It cannot straddle the dividing line nor can it be centered in the parking spot as that would interfere with the numbering of the parking space.
- For single family homes a charging station can be mounted directly to the house or garage or mounted on a post that allows easier access to the parking spaces. If post mounted, it should be mounted in the half of the driveway that is closest to the house.
There are a number of things in there that are contradictory. You can install a L2 charger, but if you’re in a townhouse, you’re not allowed to wire it up using 240V. You also can’t place it on your house, because the cord wouldn’t be able to reach and that’s not allowed anyway, because it’d cross a sidewalk. Neat.
Exactly right. The next best step would be for businesses to install them for employees and customers, but that’s a big expense and maintenance problem.
I really don’t know what the answer is. I’m completely for EV, but the unpredictable ,or lack of availability, of charging is a big deal.
Honestly that seems like a pretty bog standard set of requirements for electric vehicle charger. Any electrician should be able to put together a little plan for your HOA. I don’t see why you think that this is an impossible requirement.
The issue is that you can’t run 240V under the sidewalk, where all townhouses have a sidewalk between your front yard and parking spots.
I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
- I don’t have a garage.
- I live in a very wintery climate and don’t trust the battery to take it/don’t want to heat a battery
- The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
- My house has 60 amp service (upgrading that is on the todo list, but it’s a long list)
- I don’t trust the battery to last longer than the life of the lease
Most of those fears aren’t completely valid anymore.
- You can park it outside.
- winter gets you less mileage but not the end of the world, some of the fastest growing EV markets are cold countries.
- You might be surprised, a lot of grocery stores and even workplaces have some basic charging capabilities. Plus you can charge at home.
- If you have an electric dryer you can charge your car overnight, just don’t do both together.
- Batteries will outlast any lease, if you’re looking to get 10-15 years out of a car that would be understandable, but if you’re leasing it won’t be a problem.
If you have street parking in a urban area there’s a good chance you can’t get a outlet connected to your car without running a extension cord from your window, across a sidewalk, and then to the port.
That’s a different situation than OP, so what I said to him isn’t going to work for you.
You could try the portable battery options, but not sure how you prevent someone from taking it.
There are so many public charging options now, just go to your grocery store and charge while getting groceries. My workplace has a few as well.
I live in a small town in a rural area. There is one charger in my town, but it’s at the county building and is for county employees. There are chargers at grocery stores, but those are 50kms away.
My house still has a fuse box, I don’t have any available holes. The whole system needs changed and I will, but that’s $10k and that’s not a very exciting purchase.
I guess I didn’t mean lease, I meant financing. I definitely hope to have a vehicle at least 7 years. I just upgraded my paid off corolla because we needed all wheel drive vehicle for our winters here. Otherwise I’d have kept it till it died in 20 years (corolla joke). The electric car would have to be comparable to that and I’m not sold that they will be. We bought one of the few cars available to us without a multi month wait.
I’m sure many of my fears are unjustified, but I require further evidence. I’m not an early adopter type.
You really only have 1 problem (aside from perceptions), but it’s a real one. You need to be able to charge at home, and it sounds like you probably can’t do that. You’d be stuck on trickle charging (3 miles of range per hour on the charger), and even that’s questionable.
The car will keep the battery warm whenever it’s plugged in. If you take care of the battery (rarely let it go all the to 0% or 100%), it will easily last over 100k miles, and probably to 200k. When it does start to wear out, it’s not a hard cutoff- just like your phone, you’ll notice the capacity (range) starts to drop.
FWIW, there are very significant federal rebates/tax credits in the US for EVs. That specifically includes upgrading electrical service to support an EV charger. But given that you said kms, I have to assume you are in a different country. Many have their own incentives, but you’d have to check into those yourself.
From what I understand our incentives ended a couple years ago and my Premier is a dick. I’m definitely not against electric cars, but I think the car we bought was a good choice for our current situation. I hope our car is the last ICE we buy. Much of my needs are met with my ebike and I try to structure my life to need a car as little as possible. Winter’s a bitch though.
I had a 87 corolla for the longest time. I sold it to a teenager a over a decade ago and I still see it rolling around town. Great car if you are only worried about going a-b and don’t need fancy things like usb chargers or A/C.
Mine was a '16 and had more features lol. Great car. The only “repairs” it needed in 7 years were the brakes. I was sorry to let it go.
I get the old house rural life. I wouldn’t worry about the lasting 7 years right now. That being said driving a relatively efficient car for a couple decades is definitely environmentally friendly by comparison to getting a new truck every 5 years. Probably not too far from buying a new EV every 7 years once you add the embodied energy.
In a few years things will come around so make sure you’ve upgraded your electrical panel by then.
It saddens me when I read things like this because you’re either a troll, or very misinformed on EVs. I’m a diehard gasoline boosted 500hp+ kind of guy but I’m not an idiot. Electric is the future and there is nothing wrong with it. I’m not going to go out and buy one (mostly because I’m not buying anything new that reports how I drive or where I’m going) but in the future I will for sure being doing electric swaps into my hotrods.
Well that went from 0-100 fast.
Why is everybody so erect for EVs? They save you gas and some maintenance, but that’s about it. They increase tire wear for sure, and weigh a heck of a lot more which wears the roads down quicker (roads wear with the cube of weight). They use less gasoline at the expanse of the poor third-world countries which front the environmental cost of mining and battery production, not to mention their archaic worker’s rights.
In 20 years, we’ll realize that EVs were probably about as bad as gasoline vehicles–what we should be focusing on is public transportation and updated city design to reduce our need to travel in the first place.
Sure, a split of electric and gasoline vehicles is beneficial, but they’re not the environmental panacea they’re being pushed as. So please keep the whole picture in mind when you’re telling people to suffer and sacrifice to give up a cheap, convenient gasoline vehicle.
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I mean, I’m a nut for EVs, but they are correct. EVs are likely better in the long run, but producing them still produces a ton of greenhouse gasses and other environmental concerns. The best bet is to encourage people to drive less, build better infrastructure so fewer people have to buy cars, and focus on reduction of reliance on driving as a whole.
Hell, even for me, my whole plan was to drive my EV into the ground, using it as long as possible to offset it’s upfront environmental costs, but my battery failed after 38k miles. I got a lemon :(. Thankfully, it’s covered under warranty and they built me a new battery, but now my car has the battery environmental cost of two EVs so it’ll likely never be as efficient as if I’d just bought a damn Honda Civic. Admittedly, I’m a statistical outlier, but it still sucks :(
Ur right ICE factories make no greenhouse emissions at all and have 250M ICEs on the road makes lots less emissions than EVs. Having existing electrical plants produce power will just make more greenhouse gasses than all the ICE cars they have helped replace.
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How’s mining lithium and moving 6 tons around all day help with it?
How do you think it doesn’t? Can you explain point by point how your comparison works? Does haing 250M less ICEs in a country somehow increase greenhouse gasses?
Change needs to be made somewhere. Gas isn’t the answer, so sticking with it… Kinda stupid. The “saves on maintenance” part is actually a really big deal that was just glossed over. You don’t need oil changes. You don’t have a transmission. You don’t need radiator fluid. With regenerative braking, you’re not wearing down brake pads anywhere near as much. Not to mention the gas emissions reduction. These are all highly toxic materials that are not being consumed and distributed into the atmosphere. And which mines are being operated in third world countries? If you’re referring to lithium, the largest producers are Australia, the USA, Chile and China. You know, some of the wealthiest countries on the planet… And Chile.
Understandably, hand waving “public transit” as the answer does make sense. Designing urban centres in such a way to make public transit preferable makes sense. The problem is that these changes are slow. In 20 years, you’ll have a few new suburbs built with these practices in mind. The majority of everything else will still be the same, because it’s not feasible to bulldoze existing infrastructure to replace it. It’ll need to be aged out, and climate change isn’t gonna stop for 100 years and wait for us to get our road placement juuuuuust right. Further, adding more public transit is expensive, with a high up front cost, plus a high maintenance cost ongoing. Unless you dump enough money into it such that it completely replaces the need for private vehicles, there will always be private vehicles regardless.
But the greatest benefit to EV is the pollution is centralized. Making vehicles will always suck for the environment, full stop, but EVs allow the production and majority of the pollution to occur at a relatively small number of places, which can be contained much easier.
To be absolutely clear, I don’t disagree with your point, but the answer won’t come overnight, and we’re on a time crunch. We need lots of innovation, and early adoption of incremental gains. One day, public transit and better cities will be part of the solution. But until then, we need solutions, and this is the direction to progress.
I’m not against change, and I encourage it. But We also can’t put all of our eggs in one basket. I am glad people are buying EVs, but we can’t let a market for an inherently disposable item dominate over another option (ICE vehicles) that will outlast an EV a substantial proportion of the time. The automotive producers are licking their lips at the thought of getting us all into vehicles that will be be effectively unusable in 10 or 15 years–batteries age with use and also time, unlike steel and aluminum.
I am an environmental engineer and I have worked on remediation projects for oil and gas, as well as other types of natural resource exploitation such as mines. The damage caused by mining metals from the ground is extreme, and it will last decades, if not forever. “Centralizing” pollution isn’t a good thing–we’re best off distributing our pollution so that the Earth can have a fighting chance of repairing it piece by piece, which may never happen in areas that have undergone certain types of mining and other industry. Look at an old oil and gas site, and you would never even know it was there after 10 or 50 years. CO2 is a problem, for sure, and so is methane, but methane degrades in the atmosphere after just over a decade. Mining causes damage to the air, ground water and surface water, and to the nearby wildlife. Look up Tar Creek in Oklahoma, the Questa Moly Mine in New Mexico, and do you remember what happened in Colorado when the EPA accidentally released an entire mine full of acid drainage into the nearby river? Nothing but dead marine life for miles and miles. Mines take some of our most beautiful natural areas and destroy them.
If you think modern mines are going to circumvent all of these issues, they aren’t. They’re going to have accidents and cause damage just the same as the fossil fuel industry–some ways, even worse.
The automotive producers are licking their lips at the thought of getting us all into vehicles that will be be effectively unusable in 10 or 15 years-
I see it like that too. The enshittification of the automobile. I am not putting my money down to bet against that just yet.
If this take was true the headline would be the opposite. They’re not living their lips, they’re trying to not sell any because they want money from expensive ICE maintenance.
That’s on the dealer end. The manufacturer end wants to keep selling cars. They can both be happening at the same time.
Building a carless society will take time but we need to get rid of gas right now. The difference of emission for the use and manufacturing of an EV is absolutely not close to the cost of use and manufacturing of an ice vehicle PLUS literally burning gallons just to move it.
Oil companies, their assets and the assets of the barons who own them should be violently seized and used to offset the cost of what they created. Until that happens, we will have to suffer a bit or we will be stuck suffering so much more probably sooner than we think.
People already have ICE vehicles, and they’re going to last for decades to come. I have a diesel Mercedes from 1980 that still runs and works just fine. No battery is going to last 40+ years, and the move to battery powered vehicles is unwittingly entering us all into a “subscription” based transportation society, much like literally every other device in the world that takes a battery. Oil and gas emissions aren’t ideal, but neither are the environmental issues that originate from mining. Mining causes massive amounts of environmental damage to wildlife and the surrounding natural ecosystem, watersheds, and has its own brand of air pollution. Read up on the Questa moly mine is Northern New Mexico if you wish. We’re talking rivers that turn blue, depleted salmon populations, -permanent- groundwater contamination, acid ponds, and heavy metal dusts blowing into nearby towns and exposing people to lead, uranium, and cadmium, among whatever else. Why are people so eager to attack oil “barons” nowadays when the health, tech, and banking industries are bleeding us dry at every corner? At least we’ve got remote work options nowadays–can you say the same for your home loan?
Disposability and lack of proven reliability are massive factors in my late adoptor attitude. When a 10 year old EV sells for $10k, I’m in. I’m not going to pay a $20k premium for a car that needs a $??k battery replacement (or it’s scrap) every 10 years.
How much money do you spend in gas every ten year? Do you really think it’s less then a new battery? Not to mention the price of batteries are dropping like a stone.
I can budget for gas because that’s a known. I have no fucking clue what a battery costs, do you? I’m not interested in paying a premium for an unknown. I’m in the wait and see camp. Some internet strangers throwing comments at me will not make me change my mind. I’ve listed my reasons many fucking times in this thread.
Ice vehicles still need mining to produce. The one time cost is practically the same and quickly becomes unimportant when you compare the cost of running them. It’s fine if you want to keep using your old vehicle or if the only vehicle you can afford is the cheapest ICE, but buying an ICE vehicle when there are evs at the same price literally means you are part of the problem. Whatever extra cost there is after that in terms of battery replacement pales in comparison to the constant cost of gas so it isn’t a valid reason.
Do not minimize the effects of constantly burning gas. It is more than not ideal, it is leading to a complete collapse of our ecosystem.
Do you close your eyes every year whenever a new spill happens, or another thousand acres get burned? Call me when the tech industry is causing shit like that. Not that they aren’t doing bad things, but saying “what about them” when the crimes of the oil barons is soo much greater is farcical.
They save you gas and some maintenance, but that’s about it
I’ll cop to that. My sole motivation for going EV was to minimize the potential maintenance burden in the long term. In my experience, the internal combustion engine was the single largest maintenance cost, for both money and time, that wasn’t a wear part (e.g. wipers, tires). The sheer number of moving parts and subsystems in an ICE vs an EV is staggering. I’m taking a bet here, but there’s just less to break down on an EV and until that’s the standard, it’s a convenience I’m willing to pay for.
This sums it up pretty well. Battery powered EVs are still a luxury item both financially AND in terms of lifestyle. Most people don’t have the finances or the ability to accommodate one, and I think the people who own them forget that as they spout tone deaf positivity about the virtues of owning an electric vehicle. But tbh, I am not even sure what maintenance you’re talking about that’s such a big deal. You’ve still got tires, brakes, suspension, and steering components to worry about. All that’s missing over the typical <100k mile life of a vehicle are fluid changes every now and then. My understanding is that if you own a Honda, you can do basically nothing but oil changes and tire/brake maintenance and the car will still last forever lol.
What a dumb regressive take. Just because you can point out some problems with the solution doesn’t mean it’s not in the right direction.
Lithium is plentiful on earth. Yes we can’t extract it cleanly now, but you know how we get better at that? Higher demand!
Electric cars and batteries are expensive, you know how we fix that? More production so we can leverage economies of scale. More production so that more research investment becomes profitable.
Electric cars can’t yet cover all the use cases that ICE can do. That’s not actually a problem at all. If we can cover even 75% of all transportation emissions that’s a big step.
People having a “hard on for EVs” and paying a little more for a luxury product is exactly what we need to get to the next phase on EVs and to start phasing out ICE for general public transportation. I don’t know why it makes you upset, but you can’t pretend this isn’t part of the solution. You’d have to be blind not to think electric transportation is part of the green future that’s going to reduce global warming and keep the earth livable. Sure EVs aren’t enough now, but EVs will be and passenger ICE vehicles are NEVER going to be enough EVER.
I’m with you except for the “all we need is more production” point. That’s like the city planner who says all we need to solve traffic is one more lane, one more overpass. We are not going to manufacture ourselves out of the climate crisis.
Technology and infrastructure don’t work the same. Look at solar panels and electric batteries. Early adopters got expensive low quality products. But these early adopters drove the demand that is making both of these products dozens of times cheaper and more powerful than they were 2 decades ago.
Investment drives progress for young technologies.
Actually, your response is a dumb take, and I don’t know why you’re acting so offended about facts–lol. Let’s just look at your comments one by one:
Higher demand makes energy exploitation cleaner? Is that way oil and gas and strip mining is so clean nowadays? Lol.
Yes, batteries are expensive. Higher demand does drive more production, but lowered price of goods is only a textbook theory nowadays. Or is that why food has gotten so cheap lately? Is that why vehicles are so cheap post-COVID, because demand is so high? Lol.
I’ll be waiting for your miracle battery, but it’s still a leap away–we’re not going to see exponential gains in battery capacity like we saw with computer processors. We literally cannot cover “75% of transportation emissions” because less than 60% of transportation emissions are derived from light road vehicles, most of them being trucks and SUVs: https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-06/420f23016.pdf Sure, we can see that 58% shrink, but it’ll be picked up in part by electrical generation and industry with more frequent vehicle replacements. But the corporations will be happy with your purchase. Lol.
People paying for luxury goods isn’t what made cars take off back in the day. It was Henry Ford demanding his company produce a car that anyone could afford. As long as people keep buying expensive luxury EVs, they will always be out of reach of the regular person. You’ve been brainwashed. Lol.
Besides–I’m not against electric transportation. Bring on the electric powered buses and trains. Instead of morally pressuring people to make expensive purchases, why don’t you lobby your government to invest in city infrastructure and design to reduce the need for personal transportation in the first place?
Now are you going to stop acting so upset now that I’ve set you straight, or are you going to come back with another unwarranted, unnecessarily snarky remark?
Oh another “this solution won’t solve the problem so we should stop trying” take.
Electric transit can remove 75%+ of transportation emissions by definition. I never said personal electric vehicles will.
Investment in electric transportation technologies will drive the innovation we need to cut greenhouse emissions in the transportation sector.
Not investing in electric transportation, and sticking with the ICE status quo will NEVER help reduce emissions. A view that discourages investment in electric transportation is regressive because the current default fallback is ICE. If the fallback was electric trains I would agree with you.
No one is morally pressuring you into buying an electric car, people are getting excited that there are finally electric car offerings that meet their needs. If you can’t find one, don’t buy one. Stop discouraging people from doing something good just because it’s not yet perfect.
Good news! I’ve got information relevant to you. I grew up in a locale that would drop below 0F for most of the winter. It was NORMAL to get an oil heater and plug it into your 110v 15amp outlet outside.
Well with EV’s you get that same cable, and plug it in and it accomplishes basically the same goal but for the battery instead of the oil. Even better it trickles “fuel” into your “tank” over night.
Or if you splash out dolla bills, you can get a dryer plug installed (240v 50amp) which fully charges your EV in a couple hours and keeps it nice and warm all night.
Everything else is the same, you put snow tires on it, drive to the slopes, skii all day, drive home…one difference though, its heat is available within seconds unlike my old car which took 10+ minutes in subzero temps to heat up and blow warm air. Heck, my EV has heated wiper fluid. That’s pretty cool.
oh… and here’s some extra cool parts… if you do the Airbnb thing somwhere, your “fuel” is included. Just plug it in to their 110v outside outlet. When driving back down the slopes, you know what it does? It CHARGES THE CAR! You get free “fuel”, just for driving back down the hill.
In all seriousness, a couple road trips with mine, in both 100+F and below 32F, I found out that all of those things don’t matter. Yes winter tires wreck the efficiency, yes cold wrecks the efficiency, but it’s still well over 200+ miles. All the extra convenience is so nice, that you really don’t want to go back.
One example, I drove the same route to the beach at different times, one in the winter, I got there with 31% battery remaining. The same trip in the summer I had 55% batter remaining. So, like 1/3rd a tank of gas left, or half a tank of gas. Both are FIIIIINE. Know what I didn’t do? Go to the gas station. I just plugged it in to the slow ass 110 wall outlet since… I’m at the beach for the weekend, in an airbnb… I don’t know how long it took, because it was charged when I was ready to leave. Honestly, how do people not see how convenient this is?
Battery life is pretty widely available for Tesla’s at least since they’ve been around for over a decade now. And like any car, it depends on how the owner drove it and maintained it. Some last forever, some are trash within years.
It’s not a oil heater, it’s a block heater, it heats the prestone.
I had one that went in the oil dipstick slot.
Block heaters are a thing for decades and no one worries about needing to keep the oil warm. Don’t see how warming a battery is any different.
I don’t use a block heater. I don’t have a heated driveway. I don’t have heaters on my eaves. I don’t heat a bird bath. I don’t have exterior flood lights. If I can help it I don’t run heaters outside where I am not. I said in the OP I don’t like the thought of throwing electricity into the wind.
If you don’t live where you aren’t using a block heater, you don’t get cold enough to worry about ev usage. But also, plugging an ev in over night is generally how you’ll charge it. Unless you live in an apartment complex that can’t do that. So you’re not “throwing electricity into the wind”
If you don’t have a block heater you don’t live someplace cold, just chilly. Either way it’s no reason to not get an EV.
EVs charging in the cold will heat their battery. It’s a big power draw and it is quite reasonable to not want to waste money and energy like that.
Yea you can just pay to heat the air in a internal combustion engine where 60% of the energy goes to making heat instead.
What is even your point?
But my ICE doesn’t consume energy when I’m not using it. I try to structure my life to drive as little as possible. My car sits more than it moves.
Most new EV models allow you to set a “leave time” for when your car needs to be fully charged, with a warm battery and a pre-heated cabin. For example, Tesla owners have the ability to “precondition” their car, which entails setting a time via the Tesla app for their car to pre-heat.
Many people pre-heat standard engine cars in the winter, setting an app isn’t really that much different and arguably more convenient.
It’s a stupid argument to be so concerned over power being used when ICE are ridiculously wasteful. In a standard 50L tank 30 liters literally goes to doing nothing other than getting hot. If your EV is pulling 60% of the total energy bill to keep the battery warm you have other issues that need looking at.
Just out of curiosity are you clutching your pearls over the clock drawing power while your car is parked too?
The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
Most people would never use a charger only 50km to their homes, since they charge it overnight at home. Most EV owners only use public chargers a handful of times a year, actually.
How will it be fully charged at home in the morning if the last time I charged it was a minimum of 50kms away?
Charging off a standard wall plug is perfectly adequate for most people. I never leave my house without out a full battery and I’m just plugged into a standard 110 outlet
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Because you plugged it home every night prior. Even on a normal outlet, 10 hours of charging can give you 40 miles (about 65km) per day. That’s over 14,000 miles (22,500km) per year. And I’d hazard a guess that most people are usually home more than 10 hours a day, especially on the weekends. And that’s for a barebones level 1 setup. When you go into the world of 240 volts you at least double your power, and can easily go from 0-100 in 6 hours or less with a fairly common 40A setup.
So why would you need a charger nearby?
Dude edited his comment. I was replying to a nonsensical reply he made that he resensed later.
What?
Most ev’s dont charge with more than 7 kwh and habe active battery themp controll.
Dont worry your phone is not blowing up in under 3 years and those batterys get mistreatet.
I also highly recomend lobing your employer for a charger at the workplace.
My boss is a total asshole. I’m self employed.
But, makes the lobying easier
How long is a lease? 3 years? 4 years? My little Corsa has 95% capacity left after 3 years and 40000km.
60 amps, three phases that’s, what, 72kW at 400V - that’s more than enough. My cars charge at 11kW/3phases. I’ve got 63A service and I can charge both cars, run the heatpump, have the stove going and still have amps to spare.
You must not be familiar with North American power systems. I would bet the op had single phase service providing 220 or 240 volt service. 60 amp service is outdated, 100 amp is basically the minimum and 200 amp is common.
You must not be familiar with North American power systems. I would bet the op had single phase service providing 220 or 240 volt service.
Oh, I see. Yeah, well, okay, that’s basically nothing. Seems like the country isn’t really on a good path for electrifying things, then. How do they use any large electric motors at home?
Living in the boonies - I could get 3 phase, 400V, 100A for 800€, that’s 120kW. Yes, we’re paying a lot per kWh but the grid quality is okay-ish.
You got it. I’m not really familiar with electrical stuff, but I kinda think my service is 110? My dryer and water heater are on separate 2 fuse circuits. I think it was upgraded from aluminum wire in the 70’s. I have the “good” paper wrapped wire now.
As another cool aside about my house, the sewer line was made of cardboard
The guy who replied is correct. My house was built in the 50’s it was upgraded from 30amp service and the aluminum wire was replaced with a “state of the art” 60amp fuse panel and paper wrapped wire at some point. Not that much of an upgrade. To use large motors at home you put a penny under the fuse /s. I also don’t have any space left in the panel so…
I misspoke saying lease, I meant finance. I like to keep things as long as possible.
despite our economic prosperity
Fuck you. I could barely afford a Honda Fit.
It’s the super wealthy that are being prosperous meanwhile the rest of us are getting fucked.
Meanwhile every EV on the market is sold as a luxury car and they can’t grok why the fuck nobody’s buying. Gee I fucking Wonder…
More economical and practical than any electric car on the market lol. Too bad they stopped selling them in the states.
It was the largest auto I could afford
I like the car a lot but being 6’3 on long trips is not fin
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When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn’t work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we’re really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I’d say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air
Standardization is the key.
Regulating that all petrol gas stations also have charging stations for electricity would be a step in the right direction. That way somebody will be on duty to deal with situations that you’ve mentioned above.
I believe in large the reason for all the malfunctions at charging stations is because they’re unmanned.
Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn’t work, or they are in inconvenient areas.
ICE vehicles suffer from the same problems, we’re just accustomed to them and understand how to work around the issues.
I wouldn’t say gas stations have the same frequency of problems honestly. 19 times out of 20, my gas is dispensed without issue. And I’m able to buy it without joining a program or going out of my way. Electric charging is not yet that convenient, and it should be.
Same situation, I have the bolt and volt cars and I drive about the same with the caveat that I coast more often to a stop and make full use of being plugged in at home for warming up or cooling down the car. Really, all you need to know about driving an ev or a hybrid. Everything else is just extra stuff to take care of and make better use of the dollar savings you get with an EV.
On the flipside, I know too many people who don’t care how hard they drive the accelerator and brakes that they would rather get a gas car because of how fast they consume and prioritize time spent fueling vs charging. Really, I save close to 2k/year more than those who drive semi efficiently, and about double that amount vs. the people who are economically irresponsible. Also, I meet a lot of tesla owners who do users using the tesla superchargers who are complaining about how garbage their battery life after 3 years of driving for Uber(20% of degradation). It makes sense why people don’t want to drive an EV. They just don’t want to slow their lives down. They want to constantly keep doing stuff and do it fast. It’s amazing how much instant gratification has made everyone’s lives worse. Even people like me who go slow have to deal with their BS.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I’d argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
What has that got to do with EVs?
I think he’s saying most EV’s are modern cars with this malicious tech. Personally just gonna avoid buying a car as long as I can
I wish it was most. I think you can safely say all. As before the EV trend started, this tech started being used in regular ICE vehicles as well.
Unless you have found an example otherwise. It would be nice to at-least have one option.
What om specially questioning is calling EVs disposable. Why?
There are people who have attempted to get battery replacements for the early model Teslas and the price was either inanely high or most of the time unavailable. For all intents and purposes, I interpret this as the car is not meant to be serviced or repaired long term and therefore disposable.
Granted this is not exclusive to EVs. Most ICE vehicles made in the last 10 years have or will be affected by unavailable parts or worse, serialized parts. Much like FutureMotion’s Onewheel that Louis Rossmann has been covering, even if third parties are willing to make aftermarket parts, they either can’t bypass the DRM or if they do they will be sued into oblivion. Both EV and ICE cars are heading this way and it’s a environmental disaster.
Yeah so as I said elsewhere, don’t buy tesla. But the comment was about EVs in general
