I’ve been asking myself this since Trump’s first term. Trump’s best policy is going to be a tax cut, the reason why I say that is because it that it let people keep more of their money for those few years (Maybe I’ll treat this sentence as a filter for reactionaries). Every other policy trump has done has been harmful or agnostic to his base (bombing an Iranian general isn’t going to make Americans lives better). For the past decade they just blindly defended trump and stayed loyal for seemingly no reason.

I’ve been loyal to people just to have the relationship end because one or both of us just moved on in physical and emotional sense. I feel like I shouldn’t have been loyal just excited to see them.

Seems that loyalty is more of a detriment, it can make your ignore faults in people and do reflexive and reactionary things. Like a tenous alliance seems more practical than loyalty.

I’m seeing if someone can advocate for loyalty in and of itself or if the merits loyalty is context based.

  • neidu3@sh.itjust.works
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    1 day ago

    Mod notice: While politics sparked this question, it’s still valid outside of that context. Keep answers apolitical and stay classy.

  • Count042@lemmy.ml
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    7 hours ago

    This question is so fundamentally wrong, but such a good example of what is wrong with most people.

    Most people don’t actually have an ethical system. They simply substitute tribal dynamics or what ‘feels’ right in the moment for ethics.

    Loyalty, and most virtues, aren’t about what you get from them. Thinking of them in those terms is itself an example of the lack of any ethical system.

    Loyalty, and most virtues, are about having a system of values that you think are right, and then living up to those values. Even when it is inconvenient. Especially when it is inconvenient.

    If a system of beliefs, like religion, is something you espouse to believe in then you live those ideals. Otherwise you’re just there to feel like you belong in a group.

    • solidheron@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 day ago

      So loyalty is context based. I can accept loyalty should be based on who you’re being loyal too. I would say that you look at a person behavior and then assess what you’re willing to do with them

  • Archer@lemmy.world
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    Which people though? His “tax cut” increased taxes for years (every year) on people making under 75k when the median salary is about 45k

  • blitzen@lemmy.ca
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    1 day ago

    If you think his tax cut in any way will be a good thing, I have a bridge to sell you.

  • Zarobi@aussie.zone
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    1 day ago

    Seems you’re asking a philosophical question, which wasn’t immediately obvious and others may have missed.

    Loyalty is valuable as an unwritten, intrinsic agreement between parties. If both parties are loyal to each other, it builds trust. Trust then facilitates many things, especially cooperation; there’s less “verification of work” or suspicion, making processes more efficient. Mistakes and slights can be forgiven more easily. You get access to more resources and responsibilities, and become closer to the other party.

    If only one party is loyal, we call that betrayal, which destroys trust and relationships. So there’s both risks and benefits involved with loyalty. You can do things like carefully choose who to be loyal to, but you can never guarantee they will reciprocate. The betrayed party often suffers severe consequences, which leads to interesting conundrums like the prisoner’s dilemma.

    Loyalty is also expected in many social situations, but it’s difficult to tell if someone is being truthful or pretending. Practically, in modern society, there’s very little benefit to be loyal to large groups of people such as corporations or political parties. It’s fundamentally a unilateral relationship, and gives you no benefit other than membership, with an almost guaranteed betrayal as you never actually accumulated any real trust or relationship with the larger entity. In these cases it’s best to assume both parties are feigning loyalty for social politeness reasons and not accidentally become truly loyal.

    In contrast, it’s a different story at the smaller, more human levels; such as clubs, romantic partners, family, etc. You’re much more likely to receive benefits of trust, and less likely to be betrayed (in comparison). Of course it still happens a lot, but that’s just life.

  • cybervseas@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    I think the political example you gave doesn’t apply well in a personal context.

    Trump supporters have, at best, a parasocial relationship with the man. They don’t know him, but they feel like they know him. A personal relationship shouldn’t be subject to the same imbalance.

    Second, what does “loyalty” mean to you in a personal context? Is it just that you wouldn’t betray that person, either for someone else’s or your own benefit? Or does it mean something more/less?

    • solidheron@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 day ago

      Hmmm answering a question with a question…

      Given my mood I’m gonna say my definition of loyalty wouldnt matter. You can define loyalty and make points on it. Some people like to ask a string of questions that goes no where

  • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    It’s been more of a detriment to me. I’d be tens of thousands of dollars wealthier if not for helping out family when they had emergencies on the promise of being repaid. Eventually I had to change my policy to just gifting people a smaller amount than they asked for and not expecting to be repaid.

    On the plus side, I have a handful of very good friends that I’d trust with my life, and that’s a nice result of loyalty.

  • Brave Little Hitachi Wand@feddit.uk
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    1 day ago

    There are ethos of loyalty; to family, to country, to friends and ideals. Those can be each coherent bases on which to approach a decision.

    What Trump and his followers engage in is a different animal down to its DNA. He is some flavour of dark triad narcissist with markedly malignant, sociopathic tendencies. For a certain kind of personality, the authoritarian follower personality type (see the free online works of Dr. Bob Altemeyer for more on them) he slots neatly into an emotional need for certitude and feelings of violence towards outgroups.

    For them, loyalty is not a value or ethos. It is an emotional reaction to uncertainty or negative feelings. They do not introspect. They do not interrogate their own beliefs. Whatever they tell you in response to your question will not cohere in the way a good education would train to you expect. They do not have beliefs, as such.

    I’m explaining this because you’re clearly confused about it. There’s a genuine disconnect between how you view and value ideas and how Trump’s followers seem to do the same task. You will never comprehend them until you study authoritarian followers.

  • modernangel@sh.itjust.works
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    Whenever I hear someone talking about loyalty, I think back to an owner of a company I worked at before I realized he was a sex predator. He said he liked to hire single mothers because he thought they were more “loyal”. Seemed like an oddball association but I didn’t think it through until years later I suddenly realized that by “loyal”, what he really meant was they were especially vulnerable to sexual coercion to keep the job.

    • solidheron@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 day ago

      That’s why I am a socialist. That way people don’t have to get exploited unless it’s some dire circumstance and not a function of society

  • Boozilla@sh.itjust.works
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    Mixed results for me.

    Lack of loyalty from me cost me the most important relationship of my life, something I’ll never fully recover from. I didn’t cheat, but I took them for granted. Of course someone smarter than me swooped in, and it was all over. I got dumped, and I deserved it. I’ve moved on the best I can, but some self-inflicted wounds never fully heal.

    Loyalty to and from my younger brother has been all good, and very worthwhile for decades.

    Loyalty to some of my more difficult and challenging friendships has gone very well, in spite of the rough patches. Sometimes you should cut someone loose, but I think most modern people are far too quick to do that. I try to give people multiple chances, but not be an enabler or sucker about it.

    Loyalty to some of my other family members has only caused me grief and long term suffering.

    • solidheron@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 day ago

      I had an ex I felt was too loyal to me, but idk of other men were pursuing her romantically.

      As for your brother, I’d feel like you would say you love him and you’d want to see him happy and healthy and you’d try to reason the best way to achieve those things, also love his company from the sounds of it

      • Boozilla@sh.itjust.works
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        1 day ago

        Yes, my little brother is awesome. One of those people everyone loves. He really looked up to me growing up, then surpassed me in every way, which makes me proud.