Some people, communicating via satellite phones, have described the attack as the “heaviest bombardment yet,” according to independent journalist Sharif Kouddous.
“People can’t call ambulances or civil defense. We are being bombed in an unprecedented manner,” said an unidentified journalist at a Gaza hospital, according to a translation by The Nation’s Palestinian correspondent, Mohammed El-Kurd. “The sky around us just lights up [with explosions], and no one knows what’s going on.”
The world is watching. No justice, no peace.
the world has never truly been at peace though - maybe prior to the evolution of bacteria, but I doubt it.
The natural world is chaotic and violent, so that means we as thinking humans who know what it is to suffer pain and the loss of loved ones, must not only add to that violence and chaos but also devise new, sophisticated ways of inflicting suffering. But also don’t forget that we’re better and more civilized than animals. /s
Until I experienced violence myself, I was unwilling to process the logic or think it through. Then I lived a portion of my life where I was in physical danger from very bad people, and I was forced to think it through.
Being prepared to retaliate is the most effective defense against those who are not sympathetic to your needs, whom you cannot avoid. It’s why animals demo their weapons when cornered. It’s why plants “waste” energy producing toxins that harm would-be eaters.
Every organism has weapons, and evolution’s been optimizing for over a billion years. Like, a little flap of skin no longer used is selected out over the course of a million years because it provides a disadvantage against those not wasting the energy to grow the little flap of skin. But nature spends energy putting claws on kittens. Why?
It’s logical; it’s just ugly and unpleasant to acknowledge. The only time people acknowledge it is when their circumstances change such that not acknowledging it is worse. ie when they are faced with the necessity of dealing with violence.
Yes, bombing children is simply the way the world works. Nothing we can do to stop genocide I guess. /s
Based on known human history, the last time Humans stopped a genocide… was when we ate the last Neanderthal.
Oh thank god it is so good to see someone who understands.
Cease-fire is the best we’ve got. MAD is why small animals have the instinct to fight bigger animals. It’s why pufferfish exist. Nature, unconsciously, groks deterrence and programs it into 100% of her evolved organisms.
That’s also why you can stand up to a bear and yell at it and the bear will run away, even though it could easily kill you… It doesn’t want to get in a fight.
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What exactly is justice in context of a war? And do you realize that absolute justice for all sides means that the war will never end?
I’d love to hear what you think justice is dumdum.
Probably thinks justice only means retribution.
I honestly don’t care what assumptions you make about me.
There can’t be „justice“ for things from the past. Everyone has to heal and make amends. You have to look into the future, so both sides learn to coexist.
Worked for France and Germany and Worked for the IRA and the UK. Conflicts that lasted centuries (France/Germany) and decades (IRA/UK) were able to get resolved.
So you also agree that Israel should immediately cease the siege of Gaza and look toward a diplomatic solution that aims to heal both parties loss. Perhaps a brokered peace and lasting agreement by a neutral 3rd party to finally solve all disputes? I think that’s a wonderful idea.
While Hamas ceases fire and releases all hostages unconditionally at the same time of course. sounds like a splendid idea.
I believe that’s on the table
Speaking at the United Nations, Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian said that Hamas is ready to release hostages on the condition that 6,000 Palestinians, who are currently in Israeli jails, are released as well.
“According to our negotiations, Hamas is ready to release civilian prisoners. On the other hand, the world should support the release of 6,000 Palestinians held in Israeli prisons,” he told a meeting of the 193-member General Assembly on the Middle East on Thursday.Probably not the preferred outcome, but it stops the killing now
That’s not an unconditional release of the hostages - so it’s very unlikely to happen.
Like that hasn’t been tried before.
Your right, better to just keep bombing. I meant it more as the neutral party decides but both sides agree up front to abide by the terms of the agreement and have no say in how that neutral party decides. Perhaps protection guarantees are made and loss of claims imposed on any further hostilities?
Who do you suggest as a “neutral body”?
The UNIFIL (neutral peace keeping force) exists in Lebanon since 1978 - and didn’t prevent Hezbollah from becoming the most capable non-government actor in the region, which launches AT missiles on Israeli northern border every single day. Tell us more about neutral parties…
You say this like there’s never been an attempt at resolving the apartheid state of Israel. There have been many attempts at diplomatic solutions. For the last 30 years, Netanyahu himself has done everything he can to prevent any kind of diplomatic solution from ever happening.
You’re right, I guess this is just the genocide we had to have.
/s
If you dont want genocided don’t try and genocide your neighbor. Pretty simple concept really
It is errors in justice that make wars grow.
An excellent example of an error in justice is killing the people next to the people who attacked you. This conflict continues because there’s no clean line connecting an attacker to the retaliation back against that attacker.
What exactly is justice in context of a war?
Whoever wins.
The war will end when there are no sides left.
Which is… either when everyone decides to put their differences aside… or when the last man standing finally dies, all tales get forgotten, and all written records destroyed, so nobody can ever pick any of the sides again. They’ll likely pick a different set of sides again, but that will be a different war 🤷
The world is watching justice happen right now.
This speaks to your warped sense of what justice really is, and I pity those around you for how that must affect them as you go through life bleeding your vindictiveness onto others.
The problem with those who are both shameless and arrogant is that they lack the self-awareness and empathy to put themselves in the shoes of others. May the universe show you the same level of mercy that you seem inclined to grant to others…
If a dog bit a person and that person went to the pound and just kicked all the dogs, is sort of what you’re cheering for
That dog bit and killed the person’s family. Fix that sentence.
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So what? Stay silent and let the dogs come back to kill more?
Okay, and that changes what in this example…?
Innocents being killed is not justice, it’s genocide.
Israel is no better than Russia.
Except that Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie. Russia and hamas are aggressors.
Yeah, it gradually became a tankie instance :/
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I mean… yeah if you count back to the time after Hamas’s creation.
why do you think Hamas exists at all lol?
It doesn’t matter as long as their are not doing what is better for them, or Palestinians. Spoiler: attacking Israel like they did on October 7th was not going to do any good.
Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good. Hamas is not good and committed a terrorist act. An atrocity. Hundreds injured and dead.
Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month. More children dead than any entire year of any other war of the last 3 years, including Ukraine.
There are over a hundred times as many dead Palestinian kids as Israeli. We should mourn both, but we should keep in contact the numbers too.
Attacking Palestinians now will not do any good.
Attacking hamas will. It was done before and it helped with stopping attacks, for a while but still.
Palestine has 7000 dead including 3000 children from just this month.
That information comes from hamas. Terrorists should not be trusted. It’s enough to know that there are casualties. Even one death is a tragedy.
And no, these are not exactly comparable. Russia has no good reasons to invade Ukraine. Israel has good reasons to invade Gaza.
Attacking Hamas is not happening, but nobody denies that attacking Hamas is justified. Attacking Palestinians in general as an alternative in the hope that some of Hamas is swept up is a war crime.
That information comes from the Palestinians health authority which is considered pretty accurate. Every death is a tragedy, yes, so 3000 kids tragedies is 100 times the tragedies of the 30.
Israel does not have good reason to “invade” Gaza. They are using terrorist attacks to justice genocide. Genocide is never justified.
Bullcrap. Israel has been invading Palestine since 1949.
Invading unprovoked?
There is such a thing as “provoked” white supremacist settler-colonialism?
I take it you think this “war” started when Hamas attacked them this year?
Israel has been occupying Palestine for decades.
Aggression. Aggression that showed Israel’s way of defense can no longer work and that terrorists won’t stop.
As for the occupation, there is no use in arguing because the bigger issue is logic. It was obvious from the start that this action would not have chances to bring any good end to the situation for Palestinians. No matter what real or fake reasons are, it was foolish. Attacking Israel because of occupation (with weapons like that) is like stabbing yourself with a knife because you have a flu.
Oh so only the Israelis are allowed to show aggression? The Palestinians just have to take it in silence?
That’s interesting considering that Hamas is one of the closest allies of the Kremlin.
You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.
Their strategy of indiscriminate bombing would not be the answer if they wanted to kill Hamas only. There’s absolutely no regard for civilians here. They’re not destroying Hamas. They’re eradicating the population of Palestine. Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.
The Netanyahu government is currently doing an excellent job recruiting for Hamas.
Hamas as an organization will no longer exist. The Israeli government has been exceptionally and adamantly clear about that
Yeah, like taliban?
I wish the US could’ve penned the Taliban in the way Hamas is penned in.
Man what an absolute slam dunk no-downsides thing that would have been.
Does this mean you strongly support this action, since these groups are roughly equal?
US can’t win a war and neither can Israel.
Violence is never solved with more Violence.
Hamas is part of the problem. Arab countries have confirmed that Hamas is stockpiling food and water and medicine for themselves.
They don’t care about the Palestinians. If they did, those goods would be distributed.
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But Israel is not just randomly bombing Gaza? Hamas uses the Gaza People as a meat shield. They have taken all of Gaza hostage.
Should Israel just let themselves get bombed by those degenerate Terrorists without attacking themselves, because Hamas has a meat shield?
Honestly, Israel could just glass the Gaza Strip in a few days. Instead, they target specific buildings and points, even “knocking” before blowing it up, so civilians (and the terrorists) can escape. It is tragic that there are civilian casualties, but it cannot be completely avoided in this specific circumstances. Hamas desperately has their launch sites near hospitals and schools and playing fields.
Where is the evidence that they are not just randomly bombing? Knocking? Do they send a telegram?
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They first launch a smaller rocket to “warn” residents to evacuate the premises before the big boy rockets lights up the place and called that “roof knocking”. I’m not kidding, that was their actual policy before this.
They actually used the app Telegram, as well as flyers, localized broadcasts, and even direct phone calls.
Unfortunately Hamas is killing Palestinian civilians who head south, to scare them into remaining in the combat zone, because Hamas does not value human life at all
Yes, I’m sure telegram messages and phone calls are very effective days after they shut off electricity.
This has been going on for 3 weeks already, they did do the “knocking” and warning for at least the first couple weeks. Phones have been working, on external batteries recharged from generators, up until this weekend.
Did you not hear the message of the IDF guy calling people in Gaza, and the Gazans saying Hamas will kill him if he leaves?
Here: https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1717466462854488555?t=TsqJ6jhPfc2eVkvnKYgEmw&s=19
Where did you hear of Hamas killing civilians who go south?
They are a professional army assaulting the most densely populated area in the world. Not letting refugees pass through their lines is already a war crime. Instead they seem to be compressing the population more and blaming Hamas for having the gall to fight at all.
You don’t get to accuse the other side of using human shields as you kettle more civilians in with them.
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Behavioral/policy similarity doesn’t necessarily imply an alliance or partnership compatibility.
Maybe take a look at the agreements between Russia and Israel about Sirya. Welcome to the real world btw.
Evil cunts are hypocrites?? What? Omg
They support Hamas to keep attention off the Ukrainian invasion.
Israel invade Palestine just as Russia do Ukraine…but somehow more inhumanely
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Ah yes because murdering millions of your own harmless citizens, who some served in your military is totally the same as fighting against a terror organization who massacred and pillaged your villages and keeps 200+ of your citizens captive.
Israel is worse than Russia. Russia, in contrast, looks downright reasonable.
In a few weeks, Israel has killed almost as many civilians as those that have died on both sides over the course of almost two years of the Russia-Ukraine war.
Ukraine is way larger than Gaza, the EU has let millions of refugees in… and still Russia has leveled several Ukrainian cities to the ground, with soldiers shooting random civilians on the streets.
Right now, Russia is like Israel and Hamas put together, the only reason they’ve killed fewer civilians, is they couldn’t find more.
The casualty ratios are way off. Try again.
Try again what, explaining why the casualty ratios are way different? I wouldn’t want to repeat myself.
Russia is known to use spotters to confirm military targets before striking in civilian areas: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/29/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-russia-missile-attack-on-restaurant
That’s why Russia has disproportionately fewer civilian casualties relative to military ones.
If not worse
eh, they havent threatened to nuke anyone… cant really say that about Russia
MAD isn’t a threat? I thought that was the whole point
when did Israel do something like this, hmm?
Much as I loathe Putin, he has yet to do anything this savage.
Invading a sovereign nation, killing innocents, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas, forcefully relocating people, land grabbing, spreading dehumanizing propaganda, threatening to use nukes…
It is exactly the same thing what both Hamas and Israel have been doing.
And using enslaved (oops sorry “conscripted”) soldiers to do it!
First paragraph yes, concluding sentence no
Haven’t seen the results of Russia’s artillery barrages in cities like Bahkmut? A similar barrages I’m Gaza would flatten every building.
I hope when you realize what a batshit insane take this is, you feel bad enough to actually own it and grow as a person
Whatever helps you and your coscience sleep my dear.
They’re not wrong. That is a braindead comparison
Good argument. You were the first of you class I suppose.
Nope just not stupid enough to compare a religious war with a non religious war.
but you’re stupid enough that you can’t tell that religion is nothing more than masquerading power over the masses with the promise of a paradise.
Religion is just politics but in the name of a not existent god so the ones in power need no justification of their actions other than “it’s God’s will”.
That’s embarassing. I know 14yo who have a better understanding of the situation. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
One is a religious war and the other is not, that’s not an opinion, just a basic fact of reality. No idea how delusional you have to be to not comprehend that.
I’m pretty sure Aliens exist and there are big signs around our solar system that say something like “Avoid that system, murderous apes”.
Warning, Interstellar Travel Insurance does not apply in the Sol System. The Galactic Council Security Office warns travelers to stay away from Sol and specifically Earth due to endemic violence on the planet.
AIens lock the doors on their flying saucers when they drive past Earth
There isn’t single living thing on this planet that won’t fight woth others of its kind. Cats fight cats, ants fight ants and so on and so forth. I am sire the aliens would be doing the same shit.
That’s sorta true, but like cats and ants aren’t exactly sentient lol. They don’t commit war crimes and genocide because they can.
Also maybe a space faring species has no issues with war with how much… space there is lol.
Aw who am I kidding, its probably just like Elite Dangerous free for fall
Cats are not a good example. They torture their prey. And kill billions of birds every year.
Cats are sentient, they aren’t sapient as far as we are aware.
I dunno where it comes from but lots of living things are sentient in fact most are, most aren’t however sapient.
Cars are more sentient than most humans though.
Or that just means we’re not evolved enough yet
Or it just means there is always a scarcity of either need or want and it will never go away.
Yeah, just look up grabby aliens
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“BET NOW, real-time observation and casino by Pluto Corp”…
A poll published Friday found that only 49 percent of Israelis want to hold off on the ground offensive against Hamas, down from 65 percent last week.
Disappointing to say the least.
Entirely predictable though. Unlike previous rounds between Israel and Gaza, they haven’t been targeting the rocket infrastructure. Hamas and PIJ have been bombing Israeli cities daily since October 7th. It doesn’t get much coverage because most are intercepted and Israel intentionally censors most documentation of it - but you can find it in the liveblogs of most Israeli news sources.
The Hamas and IDF aligned telegram channels have both been remarkably consistent about cheering when about our munitions landing in their territory and decrying the reverse.
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but understandable - after all, there’s still quite a few hostages that the terrorists are holding. hopefully they’re being treated humanely and not, you know, tortured & etc but terrorists thrive on terrorism…
boo hoo, palestinians are dying by the thousands
One tragedy doesn’t justify the other tragedy, or make it less important. It’s not a competition.
One tragedy can’t justify another. But one is causing the other.
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death’s constructionIn the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed mindsPoliticians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeahTime will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where their bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hourDay of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing, spreads his wingsI don’t know why Satan is always the bad guy. If it exists I would be on his side over the opposition. Way I see it the theists are the ones doing these wars
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Ok ok fine in modern usage by those of us (including me) who do not have a masters in the humanities. Yes, I am aware of the connection between Lucifer and Prometheus. As well as his rebranding effort as a symbol of humanism.
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Oh lord yeah
I guess the silver lining of this shitshow happening right as I joined Lemmy is that its giving me a massive list of hateful idiots and servers to block right out of the gate
Night bombings are always known to be the most accurate.
Yeah - we should be glad that weapons technology actually evolved to a point, where carpet fire bombings of cities like Dresden or Hamburg (WW2) are a thing of the past.
Don’t forget Tokyo! Those we’re all war crimes interestingly enough.
Oddly the siege of Gaza may very well fall into that category with the amount of ordinance that’s been dropped, although the terminology would likely be different due to the guided aspect.
Carpet bombing of cities, towns, villages, or other areas containing a concentration of civilians is considered a war crime[5] as of Article 51 of the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[6][7][8]
The term obliteration bombing is sometimes used to describe especially intensified bombing with the intention of destroying a city or a large part of the city. The term area bombing refers to indiscriminate bombing of an area and also encompasses cases of carpet bombing, including obliteration bombing.Perhaps it might even get it’s own unique term someday. I do find it quite similar from what I’m reading on the first instance of carpet bombing though, the bombing of Barcelona
Along with the variance of the times between each individual attack, this had a demoralizing effect on the civilian population, which suffered prolonged anxiety quite out of proportion to the number of bombs dropped over a long period of time. Coupled with the fact that there was little discernible military value in the choice of targets within the city, and the cessation of the attacks for no apparent reason
Edit: sorry meant to add this as well
The Italian bombers dropped 44 tons of bombs.[7] Rather than aiming at military targets, the Italians intended to destroy industrial areas of the city and demoralize the Republican side, in what some authors have described as the first aerial carpet bombing in history.[1] Their targets and declared objectives were military warehouses, arms factories, trains with soldiers, and the port, but civil buildings, cinemas, consulates, and theatres were also hit or destroyed during the bombing.[8]
But they weren’t war-crimes at the time and in fact, to the contrary, were very much in the spirit of war as it was being prosecuted by all of the belligerents.
There’s been a lot of really good work on the history of air power and the logic that led to deliberately targeting civilians in WW2 on all sides. It wasn’t necessarily as nakedly bloodthirsty as it appears to us now looking back. If you honestly believed that targeting civilians would shorten the war and ultimately result in less suffering, it was actually a moral decision, or at least morally ambiguous.
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As anyone else. But as a species we don’t seem to get it that violence achieves nothing.
But is that actually true? A lot can be gained from killing your enemies and taking their stuff.
I’m not saying it’s right in any way, but the motivation should be as clear as any motivation ever has been.
Violence is the most direct and effective method of control, of obtaining and maintaining power.
And that is why nation states have a monopoly on it
and it’s also why the propaganda machine always pushes the “violence is not the answer” narrative
So your logic is stop Israel’s “violence”, but let Palestinians continue with their “resistance”?
Just BROADLY speaking, the pro Palestinian take right now is that Israel should be removed and Palestine given all of the territory.
Like, that’s the take. They don’t just want an end to the violence - Israel wants that too. Hamas has been dedicated to the destruction of Jews and Israel for basically forever.
So it’s asymmetrical.
The pro Israel take is “destroy Hamas so that these attacks stop and there can be peace.” But it’s important to note that up until the October 7 attack Israel only wanted peace. This new policy is a reaction to an unprecedented attack.
It’s also why parity is a key component of citizens’ enjoying respect.
That era ended after WWII, that’s not how it works anymore… Anything worthwhile gets destroyed and polluted if you fight with modern arms
We’ve gotten more advanced - now, you can make billions through the act of war itself! If you position yourself correctly through investments, you too can drink from the firehouse of money aimed at the military industrial complex whenever war occurs
sweet loot drops, for one.
You know if the leader of Hamas dropped 4x legendary skins, 2X xp multiplier and $30 worth of in game currency a teenager would have them dead by morning.
Achieved for whom? We’ve been following this advice since, well, forever. And yes, the elite might gain some material or political advantage from winning a war, but it’s a losing game for most.
When’s the last time a soldier forced his way into your home and told you to bring him food or he’d kill you?
I think the majority of us get it. There are a few who are making decisions that don’t understand.
They understand, it’s just that minimising violence is not their objective.
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Sure, and look how many rights the most violent places on Earth enjoy.
Big mouth for violence until you or your loved ones happen to be under the path of a bomb.
Because if you play the violence game, you will always find someone more ruthless and/or well equipped than you are.
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Oh, I’m sure America will topple, sooner or later. Who knows? In one or two Trumps, perhaps. Or maybe it will take 50 years, or a century or two, until civilization itself collapses because of unchecked climate change. History teaches us that all empires fail, and there’s no reason to believe that history will stop at the U.S. of A.
And obviously there’s no denying that violence has always been a driving factor in history. But saying that it doesn’t mean saying that it is desirable. Sure violence brought us here, but, unless you’re a psycho billionnaire, you will have to admit that this is far from a perfect world.
I’m not saying violence is completely avoidable (I stand with Ukrainians’ right to defend their country in any way) but maybe it could be that we can try applying it less and less.
Well there’s violence and there’s the capacity for violence. The most effective thing is the capacity for violence. The actual violence isn’t useful; except as a means to prove one’s capacity.
The best is to achieve that without having to actually hurt anyone.
Yeah, tell that to Gandhi
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Nope, they are not
Unless you consider voting full engage civilian violence
Rights are not won by voting.
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All of the civil rights in my country were slowly incorporated by democratic means through the last century.
Edit, this includes paid vacations, paid maternity leaves for both mother and father, female vote, abolishing slavery, public health, free secular public education (12 years obligatory + university), unemployment insurance, universal income*, abortion
Edit2: that doesn’t mean that all rights are won without violence and my country had a lot of violence, but it was about who was holding the power. Rights were voted through the decades almost independently of who was in power.
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