On May 5th, 1818, Karl Marx, hero of the international proletatiat, was born. His revolution of Socialist theory reverberates throughout the world carries on to this day, in increasing magnitude. Every passing day, he is vindicated. His analysis of Capitalism, development of the theory of Scientific Socialism, and advancements on dialectics to become Dialectical Materialism, have all played a key role in the past century, and have remained ever-more relevant throughout.

He didn’t always rock his famous beard, when he was younger he was clean shaven!

Some significant works:

Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844

The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

The Civil War in France

Wage Labor & Capital

Wages, Price, and Profit

Critique of the Gotha Programme

Manifesto of the Communist Party (along with Engels)

The Poverty of Philosophy

And, of course, Capital Vol I-III

Interested in Marxism-Leninism, but don’t know where to start? Check out my “Read Theory, Darn it!” introductory reading list!

  • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml
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    1 month ago

    Today I honor Cowbee’s Sisyphean task of explaining that trade and capitalism are two different things 🫡

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      It gets easier, actually! So I wouldn’t call it Sisyphean. Different parts of Lemmy have different levels of understanding, if I can get parts mostly aware to be more aware, then that helps trickle into other instances, and it’s easier than doing so in instances where Marxism is seen hostiley.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 month ago

          Not really “trickle down.” If I go to a MAGA conference, I am going to be immediately attacked. If I go to a place with progressives, I’ll face less hostility. If I go to a place with Leftists, then I’ll generally be recieved favorably. If this Leftist base solidifies, it can expand and fold in the more radical of the progressives, and then expand outward.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 month ago

              As Marx’s favorite maxim goes, “Nihil humani a me alienum puto [Nothing human is alien to me]”

              I love memes and gaming, same with Marxist-Leninist theory, same with space, science, and technology. Connecting to others with shared culture is part of what makes us human.

              • Peter G@mstdn.plus
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                1 month ago

                @Cowbee @Cypher Marxist-Leninist theory is fine. Theoretically the concepts of communal ownership and resources sharing is a laudable one. Too bad the only example of this concept actually working is Star Trek. The instances when it’s been tried in the real world, ended in authortarainism and/or collapse.

                • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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                  30 days ago

                  Western supremacists tend to use “Authoritarian” only to demonize the countries that stood up and fought back against colonialism / imperialism.

                  And it usually is never directed against the actually non-democratic / oligarchical countries like the US, who’ve bombed and meddled with nearly every government on the planet.

                  You should question your preconceived notions about China, Vietnam, Cuba, and the USSR, because you likely grew up in a country that has spent the entire historical period of the cold war, trying to strangle those countries and many others out of existence.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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                  1 month ago

                  All countries are “authoritarian,” what matters most is which class is in control and thus exerting its authority. In Capitalist society, that class is the Bourgeoisie, a tiny minority of society. In Socialism, that class is the Proletariat, the majority of society. Countries like the PRC are labeled “authoritarian” not due to how the people themselves feel, but because Capital is limited by the government. Even if over 90% of Chinese citizens support the CPC, western media slanders the system as “authoritarian” because their corporate masters can’t move as they please in Chinese markets.

  • pineapple@lemmy.ml
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    29 days ago

    Communism is actually human nature. Think about before the human era when everyone was hunter gatherers working together and sharing was what kept everyone alive. There was no currency or concept of ownership.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      29 days ago

      I recommend this thread, though maybe don’t bother going down the chain that far as it becomes a stalemate.

      Essentially, you’re correct in that tribal societies were very communistic, but not Communist. Marxists call this “primitive communism,” as a distinguishing factor from Communism, a highly industrialized and global society emerging from Socialism.

      The truth is, all modes of production are “human nature.” Human nature, after all, is malleable, and is largely determined by which mode of production humanity finds itself in. Each mode of production turns into another due to human nature, Capitalism is merely also human nature, just like feudalism, tribal societies, as is Socialism and eventually Communism.

      • System_below@lemmy.myserv.one
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        29 days ago

        But is human nature not more acutely observed within the view of coercion, control and oppression? Marx says himself that the human history is defined by class wars between the haves and the have nots, with or without capitalism we will have a system that expresses control and oppression.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          29 days ago

          Marx states that all hitherto existing history is the history of Class Struggles. In analyzing tribal societies, he did so as they did indeed lack class, money, and a state, but were distinctly not “Communist” as production was low, and life relatively harsh and brutal. Communism as a mode of production is the classless society of the future, the end of class struggle. There will be new contradictions and new changes, most likely, but class as a concept is abolished through a global, publicly owned and planned industrial economy, in Marx’s analysis.

          • System_below@lemmy.myserv.one
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            29 days ago

            This is where i struggle agreeing with Marx, i find him to be selectively pragmatic and idealistic whenever the former or latter is convenient.

            He acknowledges human nature is to oppress or be oppressed, as even in prehistoric human groups leaders would have formed and social rules enforced, we can assume this from our experiences in social groups. Yet does not believe that communism would lead to centralised oppression despite his historical studies, to me its either he chooses to ignore this factor or people misinterpret his writing and they cannot be applied in a post industrial capitalism society.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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              29 days ago

              Marx doesn’t acknowledge “human nature is to oppress or be oppressed,” though. Marx builds the economic analysis of class society and charts how it will eventually erase its own foundations. Primitive communistic societies did not usually have classes, as they didn’t have an economic basis for it.

              Communism would be centralized, but it would also be democratized.

              • Trashcan@lemmy.world
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                28 days ago

                If you define economics as have and have-not, they obviously had economics. Who are he to tell us that bartering didn’t happen on any scale within a tribe of cro magnom.

                I think the point being is that economics is a large scale class system with fairly complex structures. There’s always been have and have-nots. Just look at a pride of lions on how they distribute the feeding based upon ranks within the pride. It’s not economics, but it’s s class based system with distributed means (i.e access to food).

                So maybe all of nature is oppress or being oppressed in a way. We just industrialised it.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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                  28 days ago

                  Nobody defines economics as “have or have nots” or denies that trade existed a long, long time ago. I think you’re missing the point of class society and how that plays in economics, but isn’t all-encompassing of it.

                  It isn’t about oppression or being oppressed.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      29 days ago

      I’ll be honest, I picked this meme precisely because I knew it would draw out liberals, and I think it’s been effective in convincing a few people to reconsider their prior understanding.

  • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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    30 days ago

    I don’t think the Marxist definition of capitalism lines up with the colloquial definition. Colloquially, it’s thought of as systems in which money is exchanged for goods and services. As opposed to communism, where it is not. (These are both oversimplified)

    When people say capitalism has been around for thousands of years, what they mean is the colloquial definition. Redefining their terms with the Marxist version doesn’t address their actual point.

    • ExotiqueMatter@lemmy.ml
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      30 days ago

      The reason why this “colloquial definition” is this way is so that capitalists can convince the masses that capitalism is natural “because it has always existed” by claiming that antique slave society, feudalism and even late hunter gatherer society were actually capitalist. This isn’t a neutral definition that is as valid as the other, it is a lie crafted for propaganda purposes and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

      • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
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        29 days ago

        Language changes over time, and technical words are often misunderstood. It is definitely unfortunate, but I don’t think it is some sort of conspiracy.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          29 days ago

          Control of language and ideas is a critical part of cultural hegemony:

          In Marxist philosophy, cultural hegemony is the domination of a culturally diverse society by the ruling class, who manipulate the culture of that society (the beliefs, explanations, perceptions, values, and mores) so that their imposed, ruling-class world view becomes the accepted cultural norm; the universally valid dominant ideology, which justifies the social, political, and economic status quo as natural and inevitable, perpetual and beneficial for everyone, rather than as artificial social constructs that benefit only the ruling class.

          If you live in the USA, you’ve probably already seen this a dozen times in your lifetime: Anti-unionism becomes “Right to work”, colonized peoples become “terrorists”, social support becomes “Welfare mothers”, immigrants become “illegal aliens”, petit bourgeiosie and the working class gets confused into “middle class”.

          You can call these campaigns to miseducate conspiracies if you like, but they enter the public lexicon via mass inundation from capitalist media.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      30 days ago

      The “colloquial definition” isn’t the colloquial definition, though. Even in liberal academia, it’s the same as the Marxist conception. Using currency for trade isn’t Capitalism, not even in Libertarian theory.

      • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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        30 days ago

        When you survey people on the street, would they use that definition? English isn’t a prescriptive language, the definition is what people use it as.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          30 days ago

          I don’t survey people on the street, but they likely would be closer to the definition accepted in academia than the mere buying and selling of goods.

          I’ll be honest, I don’t really know what you’re arguing for, here. Capitalism as a term has a very useful and descriptive definition as used by Marx and liberal academics alike. Trying to use Capitalism to refer to concepts like commerce that already have their own words just weakens understanding, rather than strengthening it.

          • I don’t survey people on the street, but they likely would be closer to the definition accepted in academia than the mere buying and selling of goods.

            I think that’s optimistic. The average persons understanding of these concepts is very limited. They’d most likely call ancient Rome “capitalist”, because “they’re not communist”.

            That’s the average persons understanding. There’s capitalism and there’s communism, and communism is when you own nothing and everyone is poor and capitalism is everything not-communism. It’s deeply disappointing but that’s what you’re up against.

            So when an intellectual person says “capitalism is human nature”, it means something completely different from when an average person says it. To both the 400-years argument won’t make sense.

            An intellectual will argue that it naturally came about, so it must be human nature for it to arise so prominently. An average person will laugh in your face “because Rome wasn’t communist”. Neither is correct in their own way, but they’re also not going to be convinced by the 400 years argument. One doesn’t believe you, the other doesn’t care.

            Historical examples of proto-socialism or communal living would be a stronger counterpoint imo. Not because it’s more correct in a theoretical sense, but because it more directly challenges the core of the opposing sides argument.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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              29 days ago

              Most people wouldn’t call feudalism “Capitalism” either. It isn’t a stretch to see the slave-driven society in Rome as non-Capitalist as well. I don’t see it as that optimistic, if I’m being honest.

              The reason I don’t directly bring up tribal societies as more fitting for “human nature” is that all Modes of Production have been a result of “human nature” as it historically shifts from one Mode of Production to another.

              • I think you’d be surprised how poor the general state of education is… I think it’s also in part why left-wing politicians lately are failing to get traction with the lower-educated. They speak in a way that doesn’t resonate, and that’s in part because they’re working with different assumptions and definitions.

                It’s what people like Trump do understand very well, he speaks like they speak to each other. As a result, even if they don’t fully follow along, it makes more sense to them.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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                  29 days ago

                  I think education is certainly poor, but the ability for the Working Class to grasp the essense off Capitalism is quite easy, as we all work within the boundaries of it.

          • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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            30 days ago

            When someone says capitalism is human nature, I don’t think they mean that industrial automation allowing unskilled workers is human nature. So they’re using a different meaning of capitalism. To address their concern, you would show counter examples of large groups of people working together for a common good rather than their own enrichment. Rather than just saying they’re using the word wrong.

  • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Eh, isn’t that argument more about being greedy for ressources rather than capital in particular? I mean, why did empires conquer stuff?

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 month ago

      There exists a strong current within Liberal economics that asserts that the formation we have arrived at now is because over time, Humanity has assumed the system most fit for our nature. Some take the path you percieve it as, a focus on greed, rather than Capitalism specifically, but that’s not what the meme addresses.

      The advancement Marx made is recognizing Capitalism as merely one stage in the progression of Modes of Production historically. His analysis of Socialism and Communism was rooted in how it naturally emerges from Capitalism, just as Capitalism had emerged from Feudalism. The Capitalist Realists, who see Capitalism as eternal, stand in contrast to that notion and assert Capitalism as the final default stage. “There is no alternative,” of Thatcher.

    • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 month ago

      Capitalism is not about individuals being greedy. Calling capitalists greedy is like calling fish greedy for needing water. The capitalist system requires constant profit maximization to prevent firms from crumbling, the capitalists are tasked with ensuring this, generally by (at first) maximizing exchange value of their product and minimizing costs (usually labor), then later using monopoly position to charge economic rent. In the heart of empire, financialization has meant trying to skip the first step via large financial investment up front, like with tech monopolies. The system itself forces exploitation, dispossession, colonialism, and ultimately crisis and war.

      Historical empires conquered for reasons we often don’t really know specifically, as the accounts we have are written by victors with limited access and understanding. But ancient peoples were just as sophisticated as us and subject to material forces as us, so it was certainly not just being greedy. The economic base can force hands, for example. The Roman slave and debt system was unsustainable and required debt jubilees and war and invasions to be maintained, for example. For the ruling class of Rome, was maintaining the empire only greed or was it what they were taught to do as the moral and right thing?

  • JimmyMcGill@lemmy.world
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    30 days ago

    So as a leftist that I think identifies with Marxist-Leninist ideology but that didn’t find the communist manifesto an interesting nor easy read (it was small but not really approachable) are there any books that you recommend? I’m no economist but I do like reading logical arguments as to why capitalism doesn’t work, or better said, doesn’t work for the good of the majority but instead for a small minority (for whom it works very very well)

  • altphoto@lemmy.todayBanned from community
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    30 days ago

    Somewhere between every man (and woman) for her (him) self and a general safety net for all the truth lies. And it’s probably closer to the safety net. There’s an awful lot of last stupid people, a few hardworking smart and educated people, lots of hardworking smart people and a few handful of rich assholes. Somehow we’re all trapped in this flying ball of dirt.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      30 days ago

      One day we’ll all be hardworking, smart, educated, and have our needs all met, and we won’t be trapped, either.

      • altphoto@lemmy.todayBanned from community
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        30 days ago

        That’s my oversimplification of socialism/Communism. I believe that there’s definetly plenty of the basic stuff to keep people from going homeless and hungry. The governments should provide at least that. Then above that you can work to buy a computer and a phone or fancy pants. A safety net should exist. And it can be basic so the rich don’t complain. “Why should they get X if they didn’t work Y”. Because by the same token, how is it possible for one man to earn thousands of times more than another?

        • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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          29 days ago

          When the rich bourgies complain about how someone “didn’t work for their money” we can just take away all the porkies money since they didn’t do work at all

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 month ago

      It really arose during the Industrial Revolution, around 1760. Imperialism, the final stage of Capitalism, began towards the end of the 19th century.

      • ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝@sopuli.xyz
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        1 month ago

        So how is 19th century imperialism different from Roman imperial expansion or Greek colonialism in antiquity for example? Or the various attempts to resurrect the Roman Empire by basically everyone? Why don’t we call Roman emperors or Alexander the Great or even Sigismund imperialists? Honest question here, I’m not a historian or anything.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 month ago

          First, it really doesn’t matter what we call each system, you can call the older Roman expansionism “Imperialism” and you aren’t wrong. What matters specifically is Capitalism as it turns towards Imperialism. We can call it “Capitalist Imperialism” for the sake of clarity, and what’s important about it specifically is how it relates to Capitalism.

          Capitalist Imperialism largely occurs when a Capitalist nation develops enough to where the economy is dominated by large trusts, rather than small competing factories, when bank Capital and Industrial Capital merge into “Financial Capital,” and the only way to continue to compete is to expand outward into foreign markets, essentially where outsourcing labor to the Global South from the Global North occured. This results in a “division of the world among the largest powers,” and was the ultimate cause of World War I and World War II.

          Colonialism is similar, but wasn’t impelled by this system of Capitalism. The necessary distinction is the rise of industrial production and export of Capital to the Global South.

          If you want to read more, I recommend Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. Lenin’s analysis of Imperialism picked up where Marx left off, as Marx had died before he could truly observe Imperialism. Imperialism is actually the reason why Communist revolution never came to the Global North, like Marx predicted, as Imperialism creates a system of bribery for the domestic proletariat and large armies for maintaining this system.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          30 days ago

          Imperialism can occur in any class society. In its most general definition, it means the theft of land, labor, and resources of a weaker country to feed a stronger one. So we do call it “Roman imperialism”:

          The surplus here is an agricultural one.

          Imperialism takes a different shape under capitalism, where instead of a landed aristocracy / slave-owning class doing the colonizing, its finance capitalists in the imperial core exporting production to low-wage / underdeveloped countries to produce commodities cheaply.

    • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 month ago

      Capitalism developed over hundreds of years and is inextricable from European colonialism. The shift to capitalist relations themselves being ubiquitous is just a couple hundred years old, but the conquest by the bourgeoisie goes back more like 500-700 years.

  • Zerush@lemmy.ml
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    29 days ago

    Wrong, capitalism exist since exist money and greedy people which govern countries, since Pharaons and Kings, since the concept of property.

      • Zerush@lemmy.ml
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        29 days ago

        I don’t speak about small manufacture and commerce, capitalism is only another name of feudalism, where a small minority is the owner of the most part of the resources of a population and even of the population itself. This is the situation which is the same since thousends of years, it’s irrelevant how we call it, it’s always the same pyramid scam.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          29 days ago

          You’re using Capitalism as a catch-all term for Class Society. Different forms of Class Society have existed for thousands of years, but Capitalism itself is relatively new.

          • Zerush@lemmy.ml
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            29 days ago

            As said, only the name, not the system, it’s irrelevant if they are pharaos, kings, clerics, or like today billonairs, big corporations and banks.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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              29 days ago

              It’s extremely relevant, because the manner of production is entirely different. In feudalism, as an example, production was largely agricultural, while serfs tilled their parcel of land and produced most of what they consumed for themselves. They didn’t compete in markets, as an example, and specialization was relatively limited outside of handicraftsmen.

              If you fail to accurately analyze the differences between modes of production, you fail to find meaningful conclusions. Oak trees aren’t penguins, even though both are living things.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          29 days ago

          capitalism is only another name of feudalism,

          There are fundamental differences between different production systems that we Marxists think are important enough to warrant distinction, even if they’re both instances of class societies.

          I have a feeling you’d digest something better in video:

          Paul Cockshott - Feudal economics

          Watch that and them get back to me.

  • infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net
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    29 days ago

    Peter Kropotkin comes flying down from the sky in a cape:

    Mutual aid is human nature and a factor of evolution”

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      29 days ago

      I’d say it depends more on the Mode of Production. Early humanity found it integral to survive, and many groups even today rely on Mutual Aid to continue. However, it isn’t a hard requirement across all classes in society, yet these class formations are also “human nature,” just as the conditions to eventually abolish class society are “human nature” as well.

      • infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net
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        29 days ago

        Yes I believe that human nature is to be fluid and shaped largely by one’s experiences. I just wanted play with the OP meme. However, mutual aid is 100% absolutely a factor in evolution, especially that of social species like ours. Not the only factor obviously, but a large and defining factor.

  • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzBanned from community
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    1 month ago

    Communism is human nature. Communism existed in the Americas and Australia for thousands of years. It probably existed in the rest of the world too before agriculture, but our historical records from other regions were destroyed. By contrast, Australia has the most intact ancient histories in the world.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 month ago

      It’s important to draw a line between Primitive Communism and Communism as a post-Socialist society. Primitive Communism is founded upon small, isolated communities, while Marx’s Communism is one of large industry run along a common plan, democratically, to suit the needs of all.

      What’s more accurate is to say that what’s considered “Human Nature” changes alongside Mode of Production. It was indeed “Human Nature” to have cooperative, communal units, but it is also “Human Nature” to produce under Capitalism, and still further “Human Nature” to move beyond the discordant production of Capitalism to a cohesive Socialist, and eventually Communist, society.

      • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzBanned from community
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        1 month ago

        It’s important to draw a line between Primitive Communism and Communism as a post-Socialist society. Primitive Communism is founded upon small, isolated communities, while Marx’s Communism is one of large industry run along a common plan, democratically, to suit the needs of all.

        That feels like some noble savage stuff. Societies aren’t different because they have different technology with the same economic system. It feels like you’re saying indigenous societies wouldn’t have been able to industrialise without changing their political system radically.

        But indigenous societies made conscious political choices about how to structure society, and drag believes they had the political structure required to adapt to industrialisation without losing their political system.

        Drag doesn’t buy the distinction you’re making between indigenous communism and industrialised communism. Drag doesn’t think the difference is relevant to whether something is communism, and the only way drag could see it being relevant is through the noble savage trope.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 month ago

          The economic system isn’t the same, though. Tribal societies don’t have incredibly massive logistical chains and production methods suitable for satisfying the greatest amount of needs with the least amount of work possible.

          Indigenous societies were and are incredibly complex and sophisticated in their own ways, but they aren’t the same economic system I am speaking of, and they can’t accomplish what post-Socialist Communism can.

          • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzBanned from community
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            1 month ago

            The only difference you’re talking about is quantity, not quality. Drag feels you’re othering them on a weak basis. Industrialised communists have ten times as much in common with tribal communists as with industrialised capitalists, and what differences do exist, are our lack of knowledge of the land and respect for the traditional ways. We have more to learn from them than we have to teach them. You’re dismissing them unfairly.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 month ago

              I’m not dismissing tribal societies, I just don’t think tribal organizations are suitable to modern conditions in most of the world, nor do I want to live as tribal societies do. The quality is fundamentally different, tribal production is based on hunting and gathering, Marx’s conception of Communism is based on massive industry and global cooperation. The quantity and quality are different.

              • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzBanned from community
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                1 month ago

                Tribes are perfectly capable of running industrial manufacturing supply lines in terms of administrative ability. In Australia, tribes are refuelling helicopters. They’re doing it under capitalism, because white people suck, but they could just as easily do it under communism if the white people had left well enough alone and not stolen the land and enslaved generations.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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                  1 month ago

                  I’m not making an argument based on ethnicity, but mode of production. You yourself admit that those tribal societies no longer fit what we were talking about as Hunter/Gatherer societies, but are now being swallowed by the very same Capitalist machine, in fact to greater degrees thanks to the evils of settler-colonialism.

                  A hunter/gatherer society cannot make a helicopter, that’s just a fundamental fact. If you move onto large industry capable of creating helicopters, you are no longer in the stage of “primitive communism.”

        • Kras Mazov@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 month ago

          I believe you’re misinterpreting what comrade Cowbee is saying. Primitive here is not a moral term being used to say something is savage, it’s merely a descriptor of the system in the past, before the advancements that allow it to take on a new form.

          The distinction here is important because both systems are different and because we cannot simply go back to a past mode of production.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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            1 month ago

            Thank you comrade, that helps get through what I was trying to say. It’s not at all a derogatory and racist term, but one used to describe an earlier mode of production.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.mlOP
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                1 month ago

                Yours too! I’m always trying to learn more, and having comrades like yourself fill in the holes or help me better communicate helps everything I do. It’s all a team effort!

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          30 days ago

          Indigenous societies have largely industrialized in nearly all the world. Take nearly any country (except the USA, Canada, and Australia, western colonial projects), and you’ll find ethnic peoples from those areas with an industrial mode of production.

          • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzBanned from community
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            30 days ago

            If you exclude Turtle Island and Australia from the dataset, the continents with the best record of recent communism, then there’s no point in this conversation, because drag is talking about continents with recent communism and a strong historical record.

        • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
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          29 days ago

          Societies aren’t different because they have different technology with the same economic system. It feels like you’re saying indigenous societies wouldn’t have been able to industrialise without changing their political system radically

          Societies with different technologies would tend to have very different social and economic systems. Indigenous societies that industrialise do end up changing their political systems because of this.

          Drag doesn’t buy the distinction you’re making between indigenous communism and industrialised communism.

          Industrialised communism does not exist, at least yet, but any industrial society will necessarily need to organise itself in a very different way from a primitive society (whether communist or not).

    • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 month ago

      The mode of production is never human nature. Human nature is a factor, but the mode of production is something that is socially constructed and subject to material constraints, like tools and the environment in which people live.

      But socializing and sharing empathy is virtually universal, and the impetus to share food or shelter or community is something that capitalist society teaches us to avoid. So one of the things we strive for through the abolition of capitalism is the restoration of human connections and care that are currently robbed from us. So I can totally see where you are coming from re: the extent to which the communism we want to build constitutes a return. But it is even more a step forward, a transformation into the future constructed from the bones of the present.

      Re: what Marx called “primitive communism”, which we might better call egalitarian societies based on hunting and gathering and sometimes agriculture, such societies have actually existed everywhere people have lived. You can find clear historical examples of such societies in the Americas and Australia, yes, but also in the Middle East, Ukraine, Great Britain, Ethiopia, Pakistan/India, China, etc. As you mention, any of these societies did not have written records or they were lost, but we can understand how they lived based on their homes, food, tools, dress, cohabitation, and spatial distribution of all these things.