Megathread: https://lemmy.ml/post/3642415?scrollToComments=true

North Korean General, Thought to Be Executed, Resurfaces

I think you should elaborate on details about you trying to convince a liberal that DPRK propaganda is false: what arguments did they use (if they used any of their own and not some rehashed liberal news stuff), how much of the racist propaganda do they believe in (90% or 100%), and what sort of “liberal” are they (the progressive that is confused or the actual liberal)?

General modes of attack can focus on pointing out how it is reminiscent of colonial-era propaganda in terms of how utterly absurd and racist it is (though I do not have specific examples of that medium, so you would have to do your own research) alongside the few examples of supposedly “savage” aspects of the DPRK making no sense (it is so evil and totalitarian, yet we see no protests anywhere?) or having been proven wrong (the haircut myth on YouTube).

I think debunking NED talking points is a really difficult “first step” to take with a liberal. Maybe some general media education to show how bourgois media works.

Really depends on what you mean. There’s so much propaganda against the DPRK, that I think it helps to focus on this fact before getting into the DPRK itself, or Kimilsungism-Kimjongilism. Here’s a comment I wrote for just that purpose:

Think about this for a moment: do you blame Cuba for its poverty, or the US Empire’s embargo? Do you believe everything mainstream news sources say about Cuba, or do you place a heavy deal of skepticism? The DPRK and Cuba are both quite similar situationally, with the former opting for heavy millitarization as deterrence and the latter opting for sending doctors as international aid. Both are socialist, both are under heavy embargoes, both have achieved quite a lot considering their circumatances. Both have strong ties with each other, and support liberation movements in Africa, Palestine, and more.

A lot of what you think you know about the DPRK is just wrong. The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there, at least in the English language (much can be read in Korean, Mandarin, Russian, and even Spanish). Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:

Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.

Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious. I also recommend My Brothers and Sisters in the North, a documentary made by a journalist from the Republic of Korea that was stripped of her citizenship for making this documentary humanizing the people in the DPRK.

Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:

In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea’s young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don’t take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.

“It’s more symbolic,” Lee said, adding, “My take is North Koreans don’t believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale.”

These aren’t tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of “state-mandated haircut styles”, as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles. As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US Empire.

Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.

It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.

In fact, many citizens who flee the DPRK actually seek to return, and are denied by the ROK. Even BBC is reporting on a high-profile case where a 95 year old veteran wishes to be buried in his homeland, sparking protests by pro-reunification activists in the ROK to help him go home in his final years.

Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.

What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.

Nodutdol, an anti-imperialist group of Korean expats, released a toolkit on better understanding the situation in Korea. This is more like homework, though. I also recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance for learning about the DPRK’s democratic structure.

I use this whenever outlandish stories are brought up. I think drawing comparisons to Cuba is especially helpful, given their similarities in terms of how they are targeted, though obviously differences in terms of the DPRK getting nukes and still being in a divided nation, whereas Cuba has no nukes but isn’t divided.

Here is a website that debunks a lot of myths regarding the DPRK -> https://informedleftist.weebly.com/dprk.html

Hope it helps.

Here’s a Masterpost of Sources for the DPRK:

https://lemmygrad.ml/post/232647

A good place to start might be the tried-and-true Boy Boy Video. That said, a liberal friend of mine had no problem simply dismissing it outright:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8E

On brainwashing:

https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/

Maybe @Cowbee@lemmygrad.ml could help here, but I personally wouldn’t waste my time trying to reason with anticommunists. It would be better to focus on furthering your own education or that of a novice communist. I’ve tried to help anticommunists before and it’s like pulling teeth.