I’m not against immigration but it’s no solution. You’re in Europe. You’re trying to replace a workforce that has free education, in a place with high quality education infrastructure, therefore most of them have bachelors and probably at least one or more masters degrees, with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
I’ve literally had migrant refugees from Lebanon, Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco and such as flatmates in Brussels. Some of them are my close friends. They are not remotely prepared to take over 90% of European jobs. You either need social skills, labor skills, language skills or technical skills which they simply do not have. If i was in their shoes, it would take me decades to catch up to how Europeans work.
The migrants come here for what ? Uber eats ? How are they supposed to support themselves ? With government integration money we don’t have available ? But say we figure it out and they live and then they will have kids one day. Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the locals. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
So the issue here isn’t that we lack people in Europe. It’s that our economic doctrine is deficient. We need to change the doctrine, not the people. Immigration will not solve this problem, it will perpetuate it. Young people not having kids is an economic issue that will still happen whether you have a European young person there or a Iraqi young person there. You can’t simply transplant a young couple from a country with very high birth rates in a totally different part of the world, subjected to an entirely different set of circumstances and expect them to be the same in Europe. That’s not how this works.
Only 30% of people in Europe have bachelors degrees, about the same as the u.s. Thats higher than in developing countries, say India at 8%, but a majority of people in both countries don’t have degrees.
It’s a common misconception by those with tertiary education in the first world that everyone else has tertiary education because they only talk to people in their social class with tertiary education.
You’re showing me an average with the entire population of Turkey and the Balcans. Look better at your data, please. Now consider where the majority of migrants are going and are being expected. It is not a genuine source of comparison. It’s closer to 40%. Besides, like i also mentioned, it’s not just higher education.
The original post was about Europe, that’s the European average. Even the E.U. average is 30% and that doesn’t include turkey and some of the Balkans. Also the point still stands even for the best example of Luxembourg at 46%, it’s still less than half. Most people in Europe do not have a bachelors.
with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
You’re talking shit. Immigrants make up 20% of the NHS in the UK, and loads also work in the care sector, those are vital jobs and you have to be literate. Most immigrants I’ve met speak better English than the local toe rags.
Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the local. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
You are deliberately talking over them. They’re clearly not claiming that all migrants are illiterate or uneducated or ill-prepared for work in Europe. They’re arguing that many are, and those migrants exacerbate our problems. They certainly don’t solve them.
It depends on the nation. The UN collects data. Afghanistan is 62.7% illiterate, for example. Further, Almost all refugees to Denmark have zero Danish language reading and writing skills. They must learn all of these. Slightly more (but shockingly few) have any English reading and writing skills.
Surely it isn’t surprising to you that refugees have limited European language skills?
That definition of a refugee is perfectly compatible with the definition of a an immigrant. As per the definition, all refugees are immigrants. Not all immigrants are refugees.
Aren’t western countries have strict education requirements before they would even consider permanent residency applications? Or are you talking about refugees, which imo shouldn’t be counted as a way to replenish aging workforce because the governments let them in for humanitarian reason?
The large volume of applications of economic refugees made it so since 2015 the the education requirements are essentially waived. There are no wars in Morocco, for instance, but i personally know of refugees that hid their nationality to enter as war refugees. This is very common.
So what I hear you’re saying is that education is the solution.
We could educate immigrants, which will take some time.
We could also educate the Europeans so they don’t take the jobs that requires shorter educations.
Either way we will need the immigrants to solve the current demand.
The problem is that the same thing was tried in the 1970s and it didn’t turn out well when the demand for low skill workers decreased again.
We already know that the demand will drop again in 20-30 years, so we should already now focus on educating the immigrants, so they can function in society after the low skill jobs are gone.
Another thing is that it’s not like we can stop immigration. The climate changes will result in massive immigration whether we “allow” it or not.
They’re not going to sit and die outside imaginary lines on the ground.
IMO, the only realistic option is to accept and start educating immigrants.
I’m not saying they can’t be or shouldn’t beintegrated. What I’m saying is that their existence will not affect the demographic crisis in any meaningful way. They won’t have kids, just as the locals. I’ve seen it happen. If we’re saving people, we’re saving people, but let’s not pretend it’s because of the population crisis, because that is irrelevant to the problem
Have you noticed what governments all over Europe have done to Adult Education in the last couple of decades???!
Indeed, the genuine, strategically well thought, policy on immigration for all involved would be to bring people over, educate them and integrate them.
The thing is, the immigration policies we have are mainly to bring over people to exploit them to the max without investing in them at all - they’re about growing the local underclass to lower the employment costs of food delivery apps, restauration, garbage collection and similar, not about shared prosperity for both the locals and those that were invited in and should have been treated as guests rather than thrown (along with their children: see the baundeliers in France) into a life of poverty because they’re starting far below the locals in the opportunities ladder due to their lower formal education level and difficulties with local language.
Meanwhile you have muppets on the make-believe-Leftwing-Rightwing political theatre both approaching the whole subject of immigration in a highly reductionist way as some kind of Identity War, all the while the people with most of the money rub their hands in glee whilst they cash in on the misery of locals and guests alike.
Yes I know and it’s about to repeat.
And yes it’s driven by the political puppets of the industry.
You can tell because it’s the same liberal centre parties who used to flirt with the right wing to gain votes, who are now suddenly calling for guest workers, without any support from their own voters.
They don’t care what happens to these people in the future. They just want to flood the employment market with cheap labour because their friends wants that.
More immigration is inevitable, but it shouldn’t be like this.
Putting the side the whole moral aspect of it, the only way to make importing less well educated people function in most European countries would be a huge investment in Adult Dducation, and we’re in the late-neoliberal political period were governments (some more, some less) have been busy cutting taxes and hence public expenses, and typically Adult Education is one of the first to have been cut.
The very people who have set up open door immigration policies claiming that we need them because of the aging of the population refuse to invest in those who they made our guests to become fully productive and integrated citizens and instead are happy to for them to live in or near poverty working low-value and highly insecure jobs such as food delivery driver for some exploitative “Startup” that doesn’t even pay taxes.
This shit isn’t at all being done for the reasons we are told it’s being done.
essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
saying with all due respect doesn’t make your bullshit racist essay any less racist, racist.
How is this racist? If I move to, say, Azerbaijan, I’m just as lost as them. I know fuck all about the language, can’t even read the alphabet they have and don’t know shit about the culture. And we share skincolours.
I have a PhD, but I’m basically useless in Azerbaijan for anything but menial labour, explained slowly with lots of gestures.
Culture isn’t nearly that important, and learning the language, or just speaking English, is a minor obstacle all things considered. If you move somewhere, you will get a language teacher.
What the hell are you talking about? Culture is hugely important, if you move somewhere that fundamentally has issue with you… might might be outright killed.
Countries don’t all necessarily speak English. I’m visiting Mexico right now… it’s actually quite hard at times to find English speakers. The police I’ve interacted with here… no English. Border crossing… very limited English. Acting like English is something special is very short sighted.
Assuming that all immigrants or refugees will just have access to language tutoring is absurd. That’s typically an expensive cost. One that many people simply cannot afford.
If you won’t even acknowledge that some people need help to learn to read, does that mean you want to eliminate literacy support for refugees? Isn’t that far more racist than just accepting reality? I believe this is what we call horseshoe politics at work. The tendency for the loudest “anti-racists” in the room to be the absolute worst racists.
I’m not against immigration but it’s no solution. You’re in Europe. You’re trying to replace a workforce that has free education, in a place with high quality education infrastructure, therefore most of them have bachelors and probably at least one or more masters degrees, with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
I’ve literally had migrant refugees from Lebanon, Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco and such as flatmates in Brussels. Some of them are my close friends. They are not remotely prepared to take over 90% of European jobs. You either need social skills, labor skills, language skills or technical skills which they simply do not have. If i was in their shoes, it would take me decades to catch up to how Europeans work.
The migrants come here for what ? Uber eats ? How are they supposed to support themselves ? With government integration money we don’t have available ? But say we figure it out and they live and then they will have kids one day. Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the locals. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
So the issue here isn’t that we lack people in Europe. It’s that our economic doctrine is deficient. We need to change the doctrine, not the people. Immigration will not solve this problem, it will perpetuate it. Young people not having kids is an economic issue that will still happen whether you have a European young person there or a Iraqi young person there. You can’t simply transplant a young couple from a country with very high birth rates in a totally different part of the world, subjected to an entirely different set of circumstances and expect them to be the same in Europe. That’s not how this works.
Only 30% of people in Europe have bachelors degrees, about the same as the u.s. Thats higher than in developing countries, say India at 8%, but a majority of people in both countries don’t have degrees.
It’s a common misconception by those with tertiary education in the first world that everyone else has tertiary education because they only talk to people in their social class with tertiary education.
You’re showing me an average with the entire population of Turkey and the Balcans. Look better at your data, please. Now consider where the majority of migrants are going and are being expected. It is not a genuine source of comparison. It’s closer to 40%. Besides, like i also mentioned, it’s not just higher education.
The original post was about Europe, that’s the European average. Even the E.U. average is 30% and that doesn’t include turkey and some of the Balkans. Also the point still stands even for the best example of Luxembourg at 46%, it’s still less than half. Most people in Europe do not have a bachelors.
You’re talking shit. Immigrants make up 20% of the NHS in the UK, and loads also work in the care sector, those are vital jobs and you have to be literate. Most immigrants I’ve met speak better English than the local toe rags.
The lack of young workers?
You are deliberately talking over them. They’re clearly not claiming that all migrants are illiterate or uneducated or ill-prepared for work in Europe. They’re arguing that many are, and those migrants exacerbate our problems. They certainly don’t solve them.
Define many. What percentage are illiterate?
It depends on the nation. The UN collects data. Afghanistan is 62.7% illiterate, for example. Further, Almost all refugees to Denmark have zero Danish language reading and writing skills. They must learn all of these. Slightly more (but shockingly few) have any English reading and writing skills.
Surely it isn’t surprising to you that refugees have limited European language skills?
Refugees != immigrants
Refugees are indeed immigrants.
refugee /ˌrɛfjʊˈdʒiː/ noun
Emigrating is a choice. Fleeing because you helped translate is not.
That definition of a refugee is perfectly compatible with the definition of a an immigrant. As per the definition, all refugees are immigrants. Not all immigrants are refugees.
Aren’t western countries have strict education requirements before they would even consider permanent residency applications? Or are you talking about refugees, which imo shouldn’t be counted as a way to replenish aging workforce because the governments let them in for humanitarian reason?
The large volume of applications of economic refugees made it so since 2015 the the education requirements are essentially waived. There are no wars in Morocco, for instance, but i personally know of refugees that hid their nationality to enter as war refugees. This is very common.
So what I hear you’re saying is that education is the solution.
We could educate immigrants, which will take some time. We could also educate the Europeans so they don’t take the jobs that requires shorter educations. Either way we will need the immigrants to solve the current demand.
The problem is that the same thing was tried in the 1970s and it didn’t turn out well when the demand for low skill workers decreased again. We already know that the demand will drop again in 20-30 years, so we should already now focus on educating the immigrants, so they can function in society after the low skill jobs are gone.
Another thing is that it’s not like we can stop immigration. The climate changes will result in massive immigration whether we “allow” it or not. They’re not going to sit and die outside imaginary lines on the ground.
IMO, the only realistic option is to accept and start educating immigrants.
I’m not saying they can’t be or shouldn’t beintegrated. What I’m saying is that their existence will not affect the demographic crisis in any meaningful way. They won’t have kids, just as the locals. I’ve seen it happen. If we’re saving people, we’re saving people, but let’s not pretend it’s because of the population crisis, because that is irrelevant to the problem
Have you noticed what governments all over Europe have done to Adult Education in the last couple of decades???!
Indeed, the genuine, strategically well thought, policy on immigration for all involved would be to bring people over, educate them and integrate them.
The thing is, the immigration policies we have are mainly to bring over people to exploit them to the max without investing in them at all - they’re about growing the local underclass to lower the employment costs of food delivery apps, restauration, garbage collection and similar, not about shared prosperity for both the locals and those that were invited in and should have been treated as guests rather than thrown (along with their children: see the baundeliers in France) into a life of poverty because they’re starting far below the locals in the opportunities ladder due to their lower formal education level and difficulties with local language.
Meanwhile you have muppets on the make-believe-Leftwing-Rightwing political theatre both approaching the whole subject of immigration in a highly reductionist way as some kind of Identity War, all the while the people with most of the money rub their hands in glee whilst they cash in on the misery of locals and guests alike.
Yes I know and it’s about to repeat. And yes it’s driven by the political puppets of the industry.
You can tell because it’s the same liberal centre parties who used to flirt with the right wing to gain votes, who are now suddenly calling for guest workers, without any support from their own voters. They don’t care what happens to these people in the future. They just want to flood the employment market with cheap labour because their friends wants that.
More immigration is inevitable, but it shouldn’t be like this.
Guess you haven’t been to the UK
Putting the side the whole moral aspect of it, the only way to make importing less well educated people function in most European countries would be a huge investment in Adult Dducation, and we’re in the late-neoliberal political period were governments (some more, some less) have been busy cutting taxes and hence public expenses, and typically Adult Education is one of the first to have been cut.
The very people who have set up open door immigration policies claiming that we need them because of the aging of the population refuse to invest in those who they made our guests to become fully productive and integrated citizens and instead are happy to for them to live in or near poverty working low-value and highly insecure jobs such as food delivery driver for some exploitative “Startup” that doesn’t even pay taxes.
This shit isn’t at all being done for the reasons we are told it’s being done.
saying with all due respect doesn’t make your bullshit racist essay any less racist, racist.
How is this racist? If I move to, say, Azerbaijan, I’m just as lost as them. I know fuck all about the language, can’t even read the alphabet they have and don’t know shit about the culture. And we share skincolours.
I have a PhD, but I’m basically useless in Azerbaijan for anything but menial labour, explained slowly with lots of gestures.
Culture isn’t nearly that important, and learning the language, or just speaking English, is a minor obstacle all things considered. If you move somewhere, you will get a language teacher.
What the hell are you talking about? Culture is hugely important, if you move somewhere that fundamentally has issue with you… might might be outright killed.
Countries don’t all necessarily speak English. I’m visiting Mexico right now… it’s actually quite hard at times to find English speakers. The police I’ve interacted with here… no English. Border crossing… very limited English. Acting like English is something special is very short sighted.
Assuming that all immigrants or refugees will just have access to language tutoring is absurd. That’s typically an expensive cost. One that many people simply cannot afford.
Well, then maybe it’s different In the Americas, I don’t know, but you mentioned an European country.
I live in Europe, been around various places in Europe. I’m an immigrant myself. It’s not nearly as bad as you might think.
And yes, obviously racism and xenophobia is a problem, but integrating into the culture won’t fix that.
If you won’t even acknowledge that some people need help to learn to read, does that mean you want to eliminate literacy support for refugees? Isn’t that far more racist than just accepting reality? I believe this is what we call horseshoe politics at work. The tendency for the loudest “anti-racists” in the room to be the absolute worst racists.
Careful now. Calling racists racist is impolite and very frowned upon.
I’m sorry you feel that way.