Kyle Rittenhouse’s sister Faith is seeking $3,000 on a crowdfunding website in a bid to prevent the eviction of herself and her mother Wendy from their home, citing her “brother’s unwillingness to provide or contribute to our family.”

  • KoboldCoterie@pawb.socialEnglish
    82·
    5 months ago

    First off, I want to be clear that I’m not the one down-voting you; I haven’t voted (up or down) anywhere in this thread, but it always makes me self-conscious when I’m having a disagreement with someone and the posts I’m replying to consistently have 1 downvote at the time I’m replying.

    • Rittenhouse was already breaking the law by having a firearm; he was 17 at the time and not legally old enough to possess one.
    • He claims he went to the protest “to protect businesses” if I recall, which seems reasonable on the surface, except that:
      • He was a staunch supporter of the ‘blue lives matter’ movement, a rally-attending Trump supporter, and otherwise very openly far-right leaning, and…
      • He was attending a protest populated primarily by far left-leaning individuals.
      • I’m not aware of him attending any other protests, since or prior, under this premise; if he was the good Samaritan he tries to make himself out to be, why did he choose this, and only this, protest to “protect businesses” at? Where was he during any non-politically-polarized national tragedy where his services could have been used?
      • Why did he feel the need to bring a gun in the first place?
        • You could argue that it’s “just in case” - which may make sense, except that he drove an awfully long way to a very specific protest with a very specific population that had already become very heated. If he felt he needed a gun “just in case”, a reasonable conclusion could be that he expected things to go south, and chose to go anyway.
      • He (to my knowledge) didn’t have any personal affiliation with any of the businesses there.
        • This is like me going down to the local Walmart with a gun to protect it against people protesting big box stores.
    • Since the incident, he’s used the fact that he went to a leftist protest and shot people and was acquitted to become a bit of a far-right celebrity, and he’s really milked that celebrity status:
      • His likeness has been used to sell memorabilia, including guns.
      • He’s been a guest of honor (or equivalent, I’m not sure what the term is) at GOP rallies.
      • He’s got at least some kind of association with the Proud Boys (though I’m not sure what the nature of that association is.)
    • If he was truly an innocent good Samaritan who was caught up in something unfortunate and regretted what happened, wouldn’t he be speaking out against any of this, rather than letting them hold him in high regard because of it?
      • He’s basically earned celebrity status because he shot people. And I realize it’s not his fault that people are doing that, but he’s playing right into it. Profiting off of it, even. That is not something a remorseful person does.

    The result of all of this, in my eyes, is that he went to an awful lot of trouble to put himself in a situation where I feel a reasonable person would have believed they would end up in an altercation, and he made sure he had a rifle with him at the time. I will accept that he could have used it sooner than he did, but I, as someone who actively does not want to have to shoot someone, wouldn’t bring a gun to a Trump rally while publicizing that I was there to keep the peace and enforce local noise ordinances. That’d just be asking to get attacked. To be put in a situation where I’d need to use that gun.

    Of course, if I was going to go to that rally, and I was hoping I’d have to shoot someone, I’d make damn sure I made it look like I had only the best possible intentions.

    • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
      313·
      5 months ago

      It’s not me, you’re literally the only one I’m actually having some sort of actual dialogue with.

      Rittenhouse was already breaking the law by having a firearm; he was 17 at the time and not legally old enough to possess one.

      Not true–Wisconsin state law allows minors to possess shotguns and rifles as long as they’re not short-barreled.

      He was a staunch supporter of the ‘blue lives matter’ movement, a rally-attending Trump supporter, and otherwise very openly far-right leaning, and… He was attending a protest populated primarily by far left-leaning individuals.

      And yet, he didn’t do a single second of counter-protesting, nor did he act to inhibit the protesters in any way–in fact, it was primarily protesters who received his handed out bottles of water and basic medical aid.

      The only real argument you can make that he was antagonistic is if you argue that cleaning up after and putting out the fires of rioters (those not protesting, but just running around creating havoc and destruction) is antagonistic toward them–I guess it is, technically, but…I mean, come on. No way my conscience would let me fault someone for undoing rioters’ damage.

      He is on record stating he supports BLM, for what it’s worth.

      I’m not aware of him attending any other protests, since or prior, under this premise; if he was the good Samaritan he tries to make himself out to be, why did he choose this, and only this, protest to “protect businesses” at?

      Because it’s his community, so it makes perfect sense he’s more compelled to take action in his own neighborhood. He has friends in Kenosha, his father lives there, he worked as a lifeguard there, etc… He had spent lots of time over the course of his life in that area, and had ties to it. If he had gone to one protest, and it deliberately WASN’T the one in Kenosha, that’s what would look potentially suspicious, imo.

      Why did he feel the need to bring a gun in the first place? You could argue that it’s “just in case”

      Seems pretty obvious that is the reason–he’s even on video while at the protest saying exactly that, “for my protection”.

      • which may make sense, except that he drove an awfully long way

      Not really a long way at all (20 miles), especially not unusually long for him, who had made that exact trip countless times before. This was literally his regular commute to his lifeguard job, and spending time with his father, etc.

      a reasonable conclusion could be that he expected things to go south, and chose to go anyway.

      And if one isn’t starting out trying to find fault and looks at his actions objectively in hindsight, one could easily argue that the decision to deliberately put himself at potential risk in order to undo some of the damage and maybe prevent some damage, and help people, is selflessly altruistic.

      He (to my knowledge) didn’t have any personal affiliation with any of the businesses there.

      Well, owners of the Car Source denied accepting Kyle and Dominick Black’s offer to help protect their business, and one of them denied even knowing who Kyle was, and then text exchange between them, with Kyle offering to help out, surfaced, and the other owner literally had his picture taken with Kyle and the rest of his group, in front of the dealership. Kyle was obviously not randomly taking the liberty upon himself to spend time defending that place, nor was he unwanted there.

      Since the incident, he’s used the fact that he went to a leftist protest and shot people and was acquitted to become a bit of a far-right celebrity,

      All the left did was call him a white supremacist serial killer (as you can see, this continues to this day), even after all the facts came out. It’s no surprise he became amicable with the only people who weren’t doing that. Wouldn’t be nearly the first time such a thing has happened, sadly.

      Still, this is beside the point–it doesn’t matter to me if he became, or always was, or whatever, someone with shitty views. All I’m talking about is what I know about, and that’s the facts of this case, and what we know (or should know, given how many people still get very basic, known facts wrong)–as far as notorious legal cases go, there are few with more hard evidence easily accessible to the public, so even a ‘random’ civilian can have 100% of the facts anyone else does.

      I speak from a position of knowing the facts, and being frustrated that, even though the facts are so readily available, there are still so many people saying things the facts don’t agree with, and drawing conclusions that make zero sense in the face of said facts.

      That’s all there is to it.

      • KoboldCoterie@pawb.socialEnglish
        61·
        5 months ago

        Not true–Wisconsin state law allows minors to possess shotguns and rifles as long as they’re not short-barreled.

        Maybe I’m mis-remembering the details of the case, as this isn’t really something I’ve paid much attention to in the past, I don’t know, 3 years, but I’m fairly certain the person who obtained the gun for him was charged and convicted with some crime; is it a crime to give a gun to a minor but not for the minor to possess one? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Is it that it’s illegal in Illinois to possess one, but not in Wisconsin? My understanding was that the gun charges against Rittenhouse were dismissed basically on a technicality using language that was written to apply to hunting rifles and was being applied to a rifle clearly not intended for that purpose. Maybe that’s the short-barreled clause? I’m not sure of the specifics.

        Seems pretty obvious that is the reason–he’s even on video while at the protest saying exactly that, “for my protection”.

        And if one isn’t starting out trying to find fault and looks at his actions objectively in hindsight, one could easily argue that the decision to deliberately put himself at potential risk in order to undo some of the damage and maybe prevent some damage, and help people, is selflessly altruistic.

        I don’t know what the local culture is like in Wisconsin, so some of my view might stem from trying to view it through the lens of my local community, but I know I, for one, am immediately on edge when I see someone walking around open-carrying a firearm in a public place. It doesn’t happen frequently, so maybe that’s part of it, but if I attended a protest or demonstration, particularly one that the police are antagonistic to, anyone - no matter what they’re doing - who is carrying a gun like that is, in my mind, making the situation worse just by their presence. If they’re a protester themselves, they’re just inviting police violence and if they’re not a protester, my perception would be that they’re doing it with the intent to intimidate. Maybe that’s an incorrect perception and I am willing to accept that, but I can’t imagine that there weren’t plenty of people there who share that perception.

        What it really comes down to (again, in my mind) is that his decision to go there, into the middle of what was already basically a powder keg, carrying an AR-15 was, at the very least, incredibly poor judgement. Even if 90% of protesters saw him as helpful, all it’d take is one who didn’t to cause a problem.

        There were people at these protests (speaking nationwide, I can’t speak to the one in Kenosha specifically) who were there just to cause trouble - looting, vandalizing, trying to paint the peaceful protesters in a poor light.

        Not really a long way at all (20 miles),

        Maybe ‘a long way’ was poor wording but the point I was trying to get at is that he doesn’t live there; it’s not like this was happening in his town.

        Well, owners of the Car Source denied accepting Kyle and Dominick Black’s offer to help protect their business, and one of them denied even knowing who Kyle was, and then text exchange between them, with Kyle offering to help out, surfaced, and the other owner literally had his picture taken with Kyle and the rest of his group, in front of the dealership. Kyle was obviously not randomly taking the liberty upon himself to spend time defending that place, nor was he unwanted there.

        I was only aware of the first part of this - that they denied knowing or wanting him there, so if the rest of this is true, I will concede this point.

        Still, this is beside the point–it doesn’t matter to me if he became, or always was, or whatever, someone with shitty views.

        It’s relevant (to me) because he holds views (and did before the protest, as far as I recall) that put him at odds with a lot of the protesters there. I’m not calling him a white supremacist (nor am I calling him not a white supremacist, I really don’t know what his views are on that topic, nor do I really care), and I’m certainly not calling him a serial killer. I think it’s pretty clear from the trial that he isn’t legally guilty. However, I do think he’s morally guilty because he put himself in a situation where, in my view, a reasonable person should have been able to foresee that something like this might happen. Then, afterwards, rather than condemning the glorification of it, he just went along with it, hook, line and sinker.

        Honestly, if it hadn’t been for that last bit, I’d probably hold a different view, and…

        All the left did was call him a white supremacist serial killer (as you can see, this continues to this day), even after all the facts came out. It’s no surprise he became amicable with the only people who weren’t doing that.

        Maybe you’re right, and he’s a product of the circumstances, but he didn’t, and doesn’t (based on his behavior after the fact) seem particularly remorseful for what happened there. He’s going along with (at the very least) the glorification of his actions, and I cannot see him as anything but in the wrong as a result.

        I will say that you make some compelling points and maybe my initial stance was too severe - that is to say, maybe he wasn’t literally looking for trouble, but he certainly wasn’t taking what I see as some very basic steps to avoid trouble.

        All I’m talking about is what I know about, and that’s the facts of this case, and what we know (or should know, given how many people still get very basic, known facts wrong)–as far as notorious legal cases go, there are few with more hard evidence easily accessible to the public, so even a ‘random’ civilian can have 100% of the facts anyone else does.

        The basic facts of the case were pretty widely misrepresented, by news outlets, never mind keyboard warriors on Twitter and Reddit; I don’t think it’s surprising at all that everyone’s perception of the details differ so greatly. The ACLU made a statement basically condemning him post-verdict, for one, and that was pretty widely reported on.

        • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
          33·
          5 months ago

          I can’t imagine that there weren’t plenty of people there who share that perception.

          I myself also would be very nervous around someone being armed like that in public. But I don’t live in an open carry state, either, so it would be very out of place for me, as well.

          That said, you don’t have to imagine. Just look at the facts of the matter:

          • He was obviously and visibly armed from the moment he showed up
          • There was no freakout over his arrival, nor over the extended period of time he was walking around doing things, obviously and visibly armed the entire time. There is plenty of video of him there while armed, and it’s clear he is not drawing any more attention than the average person in any of the footage up to the point where Rosenbaum put himself and Rittenhouse at the center of attention with his mad raving.

          Given those facts, it is clear that Rittenhouse was not armed to an extent that those around him found more than mundane.

          What it really comes down to (again, in my mind) is that his decision to go there, into the middle of what was already basically a powder keg, carrying an AR-15 was, at the very least, incredibly poor judgement. Even if 90% of protesters saw him as helpful, all it’d take is one who didn’t to cause a problem.

          There were people at these protests (speaking nationwide, I can’t speak to the one in Kenosha specifically) who were there just to cause trouble - looting, vandalizing, trying to paint the peaceful protesters in a poor light.

          Generally speaking, if someone goes to a dangerous place to try and improve the situation there to the best of their ability, despite the potential risks to their own safety, one would consider that courageous and admirable, not foolish. I’d say it’s very arguable that only pre-existing bias is preventing Rittenhouse from being perceived similarly, given that every single action he’s known to have taken in Kenosha that day was either morally neutral (I consider defending your life to be human nature, and not a moral or immoral act), or morally good (cleaning graffiti, extinguishing fires, handing out water bottles on request, giving basic medical aid to the extent he could from his lifeguard training).

          Being as objective as possible, and going by the facts, what can one realistically argue that he did that was immoral on that day? This is a genuine question–I can’t find a single actual act that merits criticism, and I’ve found consistently that everyone criticizing his actions either straight-up gets facts about what he literally did incorrect, and bases their conclusion on that, or colors his decision to be there as malicious in and of itself (though, again, though obviously we can’t read his mind that day, the actions he took that day simply do not support that assumed malicious intent at all, quite the contrary in fact).

          But that’s not even all of it–his most ardent supporters on the extreme right are getting it wrong ALSO, and do ridiculous things like claiming his shooting of people we later discovered were actually pretty shitty people was itself a morally good act, and completely ignore the things he did that day that actually WERE objectively morally good (graffiti cleaning et al, as mentioned above). This is ridiculous, and focusing completely in the wrong place–he didn’t ‘do the right thing’ by shooting people, he protected his life against a few crazy and violent individuals, and that’s obviously neither ‘good’ or ‘bad’.

          Although I will say, that one video did demonstrate that Rittenhouse’s trigger discipline is admirable (immediately after shooting Grosskreutz, his finger was off the trigger and around the guard, as he carefully got back up to his feet, and overall, he didn’t fire a single shot that struck anyone other than his intended target, no spray and pray, no wild shots, he used his weapon to the absolute minimal extent necessary to neutralize each of the people who tried to kill him)–if every cop’s in the US was as good as his, we’d probably have a lot fewer police scandals in this country.

          the point I was trying to get at is that he doesn’t live there; it’s not like this was happening in his town.

          But again, he had family and friends there–while he may not have lived there, I’d say it’s very fair to categorize Kenosha as part of ‘his community’, considering how many ties he has to it, and how he regularly spent time there.

          It’s relevant (to me) because he holds views (and did before the protest, as far as I recall) that put him at odds with a lot of the protesters there.

          I don’t really find that relevant though. Suppose we knew for a fact that he was a straight-up racist and/or adherent to all sorts of extreme right-wing political views. Let’s say he was literally the far-right stereotype.

          The facts of the matter are still what they are–he took not a single action in Kenosha could be fairly/objectively described as an expression of such views–he did nothing that you could look at and say ‘oh, it’s because of view far-right political stance X that he decided to do this action Y’. He’s on video at one point saying he was there "to protect this business, and part of my job is there’s somebody hurt, I’m running into harm’s way.”

          Hypothetically, if someone goes their whole life hating a certain race of people, but throughout their life, never actually mistreats anyone of that race, then the end result, as far as real-world consequences, is the same as if that person did not have those views.

          Frankly, I don’t really care what his views are. I care about what he did.

          he didn’t, and doesn’t (based on his behavior after the fact) seem particularly remorseful for what happened there.

          I don’t think he should feel remorse. Remorse is for having done things wrong. I don’t think he could have handled the situations Rosenbaum et al put him in any better than he did. I literally can’t think of a course of action from the moment Rosenbaum began to charge at him that’s different from what he did, and also inarguably better/smarter.

          But regret? He clearly regrets that things went down the way they did. The crying he did as he relived those events during the trial, that left-wing ideologues love to mock him for, and callously claim are crocodile tears, instead of a 17 year-old coming to grips with the kind of day’s events that would traumatize ANYONE for life, are a clear show of that. Frankly, just talking about this particular bit makes me feel disgusted all over again, at all of the things I saw and read around that time, on Reddit. People who pretend to be champions for mental health instantly abandon their supposed virtues because they’ve dehumanized Rittenhouse to such an extreme degree that they can’t even fathom that he is a normal human being who just might be traumatized by having to look death in the face not once, but THREE times in a day. It’s sickening…but I digress.

          Now, after the fact, he has on at least one occasion I know of, poked fun at himself with that same infamous image of him weeping. But humor is a common coping mechanism, especially for young males in this country, who are scarcely allowed to deal with trauma in any other way without being criticized for it (see above). I would not look at things like that and conclude ‘oh, he actually just didn’t give a shit’ or anything like that. We also don’t know what things are like for him when he’s not in public view. Hell, he likely still has nightmares about that day…

          The basic facts of the case were pretty widely misrepresented, by news outlets, never mind keyboard warriors on Twitter and Reddit;

          That’s for sure–even post-verdict I saw Redditors claiming “Rittenhouse’s victims” were all black, and that it was a racially-motivated crime.

          I don’t think it’s surprising at all that everyone’s perception of the details differ so greatly.

          Maybe not surprising, but it’s all the more reason that it’s important to push back against misinformation, especially when it’s ideologically-driven. It deserves nothing less than relentless calling out, in my opinion.

          I genuinely appreciate that you’ve actually been reading what I’m writing–much better than “fuck off fascist loser” and the like, which you will find in this thread, not too far from this comment chain.

          The ACLU made a statement basically condemning him post-verdict, for one, and that was pretty widely reported on.

          I haven’t read this statement, I’m going to look it up real quick and quote bits I find ‘interesting’:

          • Kyle Rittenhouse’s conscious decision to take the lives of two people protesting the shooting of Jacob Blake by police <-- Oh, there’s a lie in the very first sentence, lol. At the very least, it’s confirmed that Rosenbaum was NOT protesting. He’d just been released that very day from a hospital after a suicide attempt, went to his 'girlfriend’s house, where he was turned away due to a restraining order against him (yeah…), and basically ended up in the mix in Kenosha by apparent coincidence. Witness testimony described him as “extremely aggressive”–one quick example before moving on.
          • Kyle Rittenhouse was a juvenile who traveled across state lines on a vigilante mission, was allowed by police to roam the streets of Kenosha with an assault rifle and ended up shooting three people and killing two. These are the simple, tragic facts. <-- Holy shit, lol. “Vigilante mission” is pure assumption, not a fact, the police allowed EVERYONE to “roam the streets”, so that’s meaningless to point out, and “ended up shooting three people and killing two” is technically a fact, but is a MASSIVE lie of omission to just say he “ended up” doing that, it completely ignores all of the other relevant events before, during, and after. The ACLU clearly had a narrative they went to great lengths to push, and were more than happy to ignore any inconvenient truth that might get in the way of that narrative.

          Character limit, continued -->

          • KoboldCoterie@pawb.socialEnglish
            2·
            5 months ago

            Not trying to dredge this all up again or restart this conversation, but I thought you might like to know… I went and watched some of the videos and read some of the accounts you’ve referenced (none of which I’d seen previously), and I can safely say that you’ve at least in part changed my view on this insofar as it applies to his intentions that day. Thanks for taking the time to discuss it.

        • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
          33·
          5 months ago

          Okay, just going to finish up skimming the ACLU statement, which has already demonstrated itself to be shamelessly dishonest, and call it a night:

          • the protests that Rittenhouse took it upon himself to confront <-- Rittenhouse did zero counter-protesting, and did not inhibit any protester’s protesting in any way–ironically, the primary recipients of the water bottles and basic medical aid he dispensed were protesters. To frame him going to Kenosha as him deciding to ‘confront the protest’ is a shameless lie.

          Oh, I guess there wasn’t that much more about Rittenhouse in there. Oh well, don’t feel like randomly truncating bits here and there in my previous comment to fit this in, so second comment it stays.

          Thanks again for actually being open to new information, and actual discussion. An admirable and increasingly-rare trait these days.

        • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          13·
          5 months ago

          not reading this (fully) so ignore me if you already mentioned this, but the during the rittenhouse trial both charges against rittenhouse and the person that sold him the gun were dropped, rittenhouse i think specifically because of a loophole that made it “technically legal to own” and the person that sold him the gun, because reasons, i guess, i don’t remember.

          More than likely persecution was focusing on the other charges and didnt want to spend time on these charges as they seemed rather inconsequential, as well as the fact that the other kid was out of state, and so iirc that was a separate case entirely.

          regardless he should’ve been charged with at the very least, reckless endangerment. The fact that he wasn’t hit with that charge is an absolute fluke of legal work.