Involuntary vegan (health reasons) since 2018 here. I thought that I would lose al muscle as a vegan but I haven’t noticed any difference there. What I did notice was vastly increased stamina and much better temperature regulation (not bothered by cold in Wyoming of heat in Florida). This is purely anecdotal, do with it as you wish.
I just happen to eat a vegan diet because I travel a lot and refuse to pay people to do things to animals that I wouldn’t feel morally comfortable doing myself. Maybe if I settle down somewhere, I would find a farm that allows me to personally verify the ethical treatment of the animals. I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything, though. I’m in great shape, not deficient in anything, and am routinely assumed to be 10 years younger than I am.
From my experience, the people who think meat is required to be healthy usually have the worst diets and are addicted to eating the most low quality processed garbage meat available. It’s never people in good shape that go on and on about how crucial meat is.
I’m really looking forward to cultured meats for similar reasons. I take no issue with one animal (human) hunting another wild animal to eat its meat for sustenance - that’s just biology bro - but our farming practices have just become insanely abhorrent with regards to animal ethics. I can’t wait until some bioengineer makes my minced meat in a lab with no animal cruelty involved because while I hate torturing animals, I love me some meat.
In the mean time, there’s all kinds of great plant-based meats and such along with just making other good dishes without any plant-based meats. If we just continue to wait for cultured meat, harm will continue to be done
That’s totally fair, but I generally don’t like to ascribe to the idea that we as individuals need to take on responsibility for solving issues that are systemic in nature. I think anyone doing anything they can to make an impact is great and should absolutely be lauded, but we should never be placing or accepting responsibility for solving these issues onto individuals.
I have coeliac disease, which makes most plant-based meat alternatives off-the-menu because of the use of wheat or barley, so I don’t tend to feel so bad for consuming meat a few nights a week. My body struggles to maintain healthy vitamin levels at the best of times, so I have to compensate how I can and balance the ethics of the matter. I’m also not rich, which means I can’t afford a high-quality vegetarian or vegan diet right now. For someone like me, waiting for cultured meats is the best I can do right now unless a cure for autoimmune diseases is found.
For the gluten part, most of the major plant-based meats are gluten free: beyond is, impossible is, etc. They are also not the only option of course either as dishes don’t need to use any plant-based meats and can say be bean based or lentil based
For the individual part, the problem is that as long as people expect to consume meat, dairy, etc. in mass, factory farming is the invariable outcome. There really isn’t much way away around requiring changes to consumption levels. For instance, something like grass-fed production couldn’t even supply a third of beef production, and would even raise emissions as well
We model a nationwide transition [in the US] from grain- to grass-finishing systems using demographics of present-day beef cattle. In order to produce the same quantity of beef as the present-day system, we find that a nationwide shift to exclusively grass-fed beef would require increasing the national cattle herd from 77 to 100 million cattle, an increase of 30%. We also find that the current pastureland grass resource can support only 27% of the current beef supply (27 million cattle), an amount 30% smaller than prior estimates
[…]
If beef consumption is not reduced and is instead satisfied by greater imports of grass-fed beef, a switch to purely grass-fed systems would likely result in higher environmental costs, including higher overall methane emissions. Thus, only reductions in beef consumption can guarantee reductions in the environmental impact of US food systems.
Advice regarding product availability doesn’t always translate well on a universally accessible platform - for instance where I’m located in Australia I’d have to drive over 50km to my nearest Beyond Meat stockist and both Beyond and Impossible are around 3-4 times the cost of their true meat alternatives. Sadly my economic situation doesn’t allow me to pay $40-$50/kg for plant-based meat alternatives, and any ones that are near affordable are stuffed full of wheat or flavoured with barley. Another important note to remember is that the definition of ‘gluten-free’ varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so not all products that are labelled gluten-free in one market can be said to be the same in other markets.
There are definitely ways to balance a vegetarian or vegan diet well enough to manage your nutrient intake, however this requires a lot of fresh foods that are also very expensive where I am. I’m also trying to follow my dietician’s advice who recommended that I eat red meat, white meat and fish once each per week as my body struggles with nutrient intake.
I get where you’re coming from - if everyone tomorrow halved their meat intake the entire industry would collapse as it is by definition a demand-driven industry, but I’m afraid all I can do for my part is reduce my meat intake to where I have. I also don’t think it’s fair for me to place responsibility on myself to fix an issue that requires regulatory and governmental intervention to affect real change.
If you really go vegan don’t forget to take B12 vitamin supplements. It’s very VITAL and really the only supplement you need if your diet is diverse enough.
Thanks! I’ve eaten vegan for about 5 years, and B12 is the only supplement that I make sure I’m always taking. I’ve gotten some nutrient blood tests over the years to make sure things are fine. Right now, I’m also taking magnesium and omega3s. I was recently taking vitamin D as well, but I’ve been doing long-distance hiking lately and been outside for 16 hours a day, so I think my vitamin D is doing alright.
A nurse was actually just telling me about how crucial B12 is, and not in a vegan context, but actually because the “whippets” drug depletes it like crazy and it can cause people to just completely collapse.
I’m really interesting in how you manage to keep a vegan diet while travelling. Is it abroad? Do you eat food from locals? I would not feel comfortable refusing food offered by people because it’s animal based yet I would stick to veganism. To be honest, I’m incapable of doing this. I think I would starve. I find it already difficult to find restaurants when travelling. I do not regret my choice to go vegan but sometimes I feel like I’m missing out when I’m in a different country and I want to discover the culture. Plus it makes day planning much harder.
Yes, I pretty much exclusively travel abroad. I really don’t find it difficult anymore. Maybe early on, it was annoying, but now I don’t even think much about it.
I don’t regret missing out on the aspect of cultures where people abuse those less fortunate. There are many aspects of peoples lives and cultures that I don’t take part in, but I still have a rich experience when visiting them. I don’t intimidate women into being uneducated, or try to take child brides, or mutilate the genitals of babies, or get blackout drunk and provoke fights, or many other things that are a part of various cultures that are just not for me.
I understand that different people are in different economic situations, and for some people, they have no choice but to eat processed factory farm products to be more healthy than without. It is a shame that that is the case, but I don’t see people in that situation as being immoral. They just have their own situation to weigh.
On the practical side of things, it is easy to refuse food, I am fine just saying that I can’t take it for health reasons if I dont want to get into it with someone. If I want restaurant food, it is generally easy to find Thai, Indian, or to eat a simple salad. Honestly, almost all decent sized cities have specifically vegan restaurants these days, and even more have restaurants with some vegan options. On top of that, I try to do a few week long water fasts each year, so If I ever do find myself in a situation where I absolutely can’t eat a meal or something, it really doesn’t bother me much.
I do eat food from locals. Even the most meat obsessed cultures still have plenty of traditional foods that don’t include animal products. If I am around locals who want to make food for me, then I often get to have a wide range of dishes because they want to make sure I am full. I am very fortunate to be able to travel like I do, so not squeezing every ounce of pleasure out of the misery of others is a small price for me to pay.
My response was so long-winded, and there was even more that I wrote that maybe wasn’t directly relevant to your comment, so I removed it. I did write it, though, so I figure I’ll just go ahead and paste it here:
I’m actually not even philosophically strictly vegan, although I am vegan in practice. I just weigh the cost/benefit when making decisions. I decide if the questionable nutritional benefit of drugged up animal parts and 20 minutes of pleasure to me is worth a lifetime of cruel conditions and misery for this animal. It just happens to be the case for me personally that I think whatever potential health benefit I get from it isn’t worth such an extreme cost to the animal since I am fortunate enough to be able mantain a healthy body without that. I would feel much better if I could verify that the animal has had a happy life.
For instance, in scotland, there are sheep that are free to roam the unfenced highlands anywhere they like with their babies, and they choose to go back to where the farmer they are used to feeds them in the winters. When they get old, the farmer will quickly kill them, and this is very much in line with their life over countless generations. Philosophically, eating that kind of meat has a much lower cost to me than the cruel factory farms where much meat/animal products come from. That said, at this point in my life, even that cost is not worth it to me, but maybe some day that will change. I can see the argument that maybe killing them at a certain point could be seen as mercy, but still, I’d just rather not at this point in my life.
That was a very interesting read. Thank you! I share a lot of thought with your philosophy and I’m confident that is what most vegans think too. I am too aware and grateful to be able to choose my diet. I don’t blame people who have no choice but to use animals to make a living. Though I sometimes regret that people in developed countries don’t really think about what they put in their plate.
Yeah, I feel lucky to have had it occur to me to think about this stuff. I can’t put into words what a weight was lifted when I stopped supporting that stuff. It is just an all-around emotional lightness that permeates every aspect of my life. It’s like discovering that I had been dragging a sack of rocks for so long that I had just assumed it was a part of life. I can remember how bad it was, and trying to convey this to people always seems to be taken the wrong way. I don’t know why I got lucky in this way, and it is very frustrating to be unable to explain how much better it is since it really feels like a choice that most people could make if they only knew.
Not the person you asked, but in my experience, when I travel I will go to grocery stores often. I personally love seeing what grocery stores are like in other countries, so that ends up being quite a fun experience (for me). But more importantly- it lets you stock up on stuff that you can eat. You have to learn what foods are enjoyable for you to consume cold, or with minimal prep, but in the end it’s not too difficult.
Yes this what I do too. But I mostly visit cities so that’s not too difficult. Hiking on the other end, that must be hard.
True! I’ve only done a few hiking/travel adventures, and for those I’m usually backpacking. So my food is dehydrated and packed with me. But that post-trek meal can be tricky!
Sounds like the health reasons were good then
I don’t really have anything witty to say, but I do just to want to comment and say I really love this.
Wait…
Our comments are supposed to be witty‽
I’ve got to make some calls.
your face has calls to make
witty
Your face made the wrong call switching places with your arse. Sorry, didn’t mean it.
Meat-eating gains are stolen valor apparently.
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That’s a hot take I’d expect to hear from a 12 year old.
No, the person is right. It’s realy fucked up to eat and kill another sentient beeing to feed yourself, if your could just as easy not do so.
So you think grass and cows are comparable here? I’d be careful to judge others people’s intelligence if I where you.
It’s realy fucked up to eat and kill another sentient beeing to feed yourself
i don’t think so. can you support that claim?
That it’s fucked up?
That comes the heart, cuz.
What do you mean support.everything eats living things. what is fucked up about that?
Does Saturn Devouring His Son inspire any feelings within you whatsoever.
curiosity, then suddenly, boredom.
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Not the person you are replying to, but maybe don’t make multiple grammatical errors if you are going to claim that spelling errors invalidate their argument
Need someone who doesn’t use an auto correct [missing “to”] call me stupid, [period or semicolon instead of comma] at least hide your lack [missing “of”] common sense.
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I did check, and I listed the mistakes above in the quote with square brackets
Raising non-human animals ends up taking more plants anyway because they eat a lot of feed who’s energy is mostly lost. So if one were concerned with plants, eating plants directly results in fewer plants being killed
Grass don’t have muscles. Checkmater hater. Better go train your brain muscles.
🤡
What about the shit we feed that grass uh?!! We should all be eating shit instead of taking the hard work of the grass
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Wild fruit (e.g. fruit that hasn’t been cultivated though centuries of botany) is trees tricking you to eat its seeds and poop them out in fertilizer. But those seeds tend to be big and wreak havoc with your digestive system.
True Facts gets into all this.
Plant bebes
Gets complicated when you have empathy for plants too. 👀
Raising non-human animals ends up taking more plants anyway because they eat a lot of feed who’s energy is mostly lost. So if one were concerned with plants, eating plants directly results in fewer plants being killed
If your goal is to minimize the overall harm to plants through your own consumption the most ethical thing to eat is people.
Billionaires 🤤
In glad we got to the bottom of this. People. People is the right answer, everyone.
That’s a load off my mind! Let’s start a company. Maybe we can name it after what we’re saving. Something like… Soylent green?
Only if they are consenting?
Fungus based diet it is
Fungus are most of the time the reproductive organs popping up through the ground from an enormous hidden underground super organism. So, in affect, if you enjoy eating mushrooms you are actually enjoying the fungus’s cock and balls.
I was already sold on it before.
But see, the fungus can communicate too.
I guess it’s down to butthole sunning and air to sustain ourselves.
They are as alive as the plants. But maybe mushrooms, like fruit, are intended to be eaten, to spread the spores. 👀 🍄
As others have mentioned, eating fruits and fungi don’t kill the organism, and per my understanding it’s the same for vegetables where you pick something off the plant to eat
But if that were the argument, then you don’t need to be vegan, but vegetarian. Milking a cow doesn’t kill it.
I personally think that the animal exploitation argument is the strongest for veganism or vegetarianism, not any of the ones appealing to some naturalistic rule or that no organism should be exploited. Yes, animals provide humans a very efficient nutritional source that plants can’t give us, but a) we stopped eating the majority parts of animals that are not meat, and b) that doesn’t justify animals raised in cruelty, without any regard for their wellbeing, standing in their own feces all day and so on.
Our current scientific understanding of plants is that since they don’t have a nervous system, they can’t feel pain. And that while they react to stimuli (facing the sun for example) they don’t exhibit any form of consciousness. Unfortunately there have been more and more claims to the contrary, but not backed up by studies.
I have some bad news for you about the dairy industry in that they very much do kill cows. Cows producing milk requires producing constantly impregnating them. That means a lot of babies, only some of which are female and produce milk. They’re seperated from their mothers and if male, killed because they’re seen as waste (and would use the cow’s milk because that’s who the milk was meant for). Then female cows are also still usually killed after there milk production begins to decline because they’re less profitable
Yes: it’s the exploitation that have us kill the cows, not the actual milking. I know some people that are vegetarian but only get their products from a local farm. This is of course very expensive and not an option to many, but it would still be consistent with the moral stance against exploitation.
they aren’t constantly pregnant, and the vast majority of even male calves are brought to full weight before slaughter.
I complete agree that veganism is about reducing animal pain, suffering and exploitation. Personally, I think if you’re taking care of your chickens and cows like they’re almost pets, then there’s nothing wrong with eating eggs or drinking milk. That’s how my ancestors used to get their produce, from their own chicken or cow, which were treated well and humanely. They didn’t eat the meat of those animals, but other animals though 👀 I want to be vegan eventually, but I like the idea of symbiotic and humane relationships with other animals
It is the exploitation that’s wrong. That goes for animals as well as plants. If we can avoid that then things would be a lot better
Plants never complain, unlike all of us whiny primates. In a way, they could be far more moral creatures than anything else we’re aware of.
Mother Nature is cruel and we are at the pinnacle. It’s kind of cool to see such sentiments that are so uncharacteristic for the cold, dark universe. I wonder if there is a single place out there where similar behaviours could develop. Would anyone else view them as we do or is it intrinsically human?
Are aliens cannibals?
I mean. Humans are mid on the asshole olympics.
Just take chimps for example. The males much rather eat their own child after the mother dies, than take care of it themselves. Females only can take care of one child at a time. So they are cool watching an orphan die from neglect or cannibalism.
Take dolphins. The males gang up on females to force her to mate. If she refuses, they drown her.
Zebra’s and many other species go out of their way to kill foals just so that the mother goes into estrus sooner. Giving the male a chance to force copulation.
Storks build their nest above croc infesed land/water. This is to scare off predators. They also have the habit of evicting young that are either too weak (due to disease or bullying) or are oo aggressive (too much of a bully to other nest mates). The parents can’t feed every chick, especially as they get bigger. So they get rid of some. Resulting in a mutualistic relationship between the croc and stork. It’s a lot more common than you’d think.
Lions form coalitions to kill lion cubs, just to get lionesses to stop lactating and go into estrus sooner. Lionesses sometimes kill their own young if they have only 1 cub left. Better kill it, go into estrus and cook up a new batch sooner.
Beachmasters are known to crush newborn elephant seals to death. Simply because they were too close to their mother who just gave birth to it. Ever seen one of these jerks run? It’s glorious.
Parasite birds form mobs to destroy nests that managed to evict their chicks.
And insects aren’t much better either. Sadly I forget the name of the bug that pins down a female, forces copulation and then throws her out of the tree. I get the pinning part, but the throwing out of the tree bit just seems extra.
Then there is ofcourse rampant cannibalism in insects and spiders. Females produce more offspring if they eat the male. And some spider species, the female turns herself into a meal for her children in a feezing frenzy.
Humans aren’t so bad.
The difference is scale.
Looking at just one animal we eat: pigs. Widely known as a quite intelligent animal.
In 2019, 1.3 billion pigs were slaughtered. That’s “billion” with a “B”. So every day that year- 3.5 MILLION pigs are killed by humans. Every. Day.
It’s true that pigs are smarter than dogs. And they make wonderful pets. But we also farm pigs ourselves instead of hunting them to extinction. 3.5 million pigs per day, for 7+ billion humans. Not only that, sallow and bones are used for soaps, candles, biofuel, calcium supplementation and for some reason… making sugar white. That sounds as efficient as eating meat can be. Lots of animals just leave the rest of the carcass to rot. If it wasn’t for condors/vultures to fill up the niche and clean up the mess, it would poison the water for everyone. As we see in area’s where vultures are threatened.
Plenty of other animals are intelligient, and are killed by other intelligient animals. Take birds. They are pretty damn smart. Ever heard of the shrike bird who impales prey to mark its territory/woo females with food storage displays? The prey is alive upon impaling. Usually dead by the time a female dismembers the corpse. Isn’t nature just romantic? Or what about humans being attacked by “dumber” predators. Humans may be intelligient, but it sure doesn’t stop a hungry tiger/polar bear/hyena/etc. I don’t think murder/hunting an “intelligient” is a good reason to label humans as worse than average. Though I do agree that pigs deserve better housing and space to express natural behaviours. Something mass farms don’t allow.
A sea turtle (forgot the name) doesn’t seem to eat the roots of the grass, but still pulls all of the plant out of the sand. Making it harder for the plant to grow back. Just like them, we screw ourselves over long-term.
Are we really the worst nature has to offer? I think we aren’t per se. I think most animals given the oppertunity would destroy their enviroment, until they screw themselves over and a new balance in the ecosystem forms. Invasive species aren’t a menace in the ecosystem they come from, only in spaces they aren’t balanced in. We humans still need to adapt, and are lucky to be able to understand the impact we have long term.
Stag beetle
Given how powerful and effective the strategy of cooperation and trust seem to be in humans, I find it extremely likely to be a common strategy.
I also don’t think aliens lacking empathy would generally be capable of forming civilizations, so they’d be stuck at the hunter gatherer stage. It is almost a truism that amongst us humans, as empathy and trust in eachother breaks down, civilization stops functioning.
If you lean towards moral truth being at least somewhat universal, then this wouldn’t be intrinsically human at all.
I think morality is a human social construct. A very beautiful one though but one that can only exist to various degrees if there is certain level of comfort and prosperity.
Ultimately it is merely a tiny splinter in the vast cosmos. I like it nevertheless and sticking to it makes me feel good.
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Still 🤡
