God of War matters.
I always thought it was weird when people think of Jesus as a literal God.
The trinity. The father the son and the holy ghost. AKA Dissociative identity disorder
It’s not DID, that’s modalism.
I love that video
That’s canon tho.
True, it’s just a little too magical for my brain to process. To me he was a prophet and probably a good dude… but that’s probably about it.
To worship a guy as a literal God because his mom had a tale to tell about why she was pregnant, was the beginning of the end of religion making sense for me.
To me he was a prophet and probably a good dude… but that’s probably about it.
And you have stumbled upon the big difference between Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
Jews already had a list of criteria for the messiah. Jesus didn’t check all of the boxes, so the Jews went “he’s not our messiah. We’ll keep waiting for the real one to show up.”
Christians believe he is the messiah; Literally God given flesh, so He can experience mortality and die for their sins.
Then the Muslims believe he was a prophet, but not the last prophet. They believe the last prophet was Muhammad. Jesus is featured pretty heavily in the Quran, because they do believe he was a prophet. But Muhammad said there would be no more prophets after himself, so anyone new claiming to be one is lying. (Worth noting that this “no new prophets” thing doesn’t negate Jesus’ second coming. Because Jesus wouldn’t be a new prophet, he would be a returning prophet.)
He was NOT the Messiah! He was a very naughty boy.
Muhammad out here gatekeeping prophets, it nice Muhammad. I think anyone can be whatever they want to, so long as they try hard.
I mean, the Bible also discusses an anti-Christ as well. Jesus preached that there would be false prophets.
Almost as if starting a cult requires your followers to actively reject other belief systems.
And then came Báb and Baháʼí was born.
It’s turtles all the way down.
if he existed, he sounds like he was cool.
show me some real historical documents suggesting he did, tho.
It doesn’t matter much if there was a “real” Jesus, because the Jesus Christians worship is not him. The Jesus Christians worship is a magical son of a god that defies death.
okay yeah that guy didn’t exist, but the George Washington Americans worship couldn’t tell a lie and did manual labor one time and was a good general and his teeth were stupid instead of nightmare fuel
and we consider them the same guy.
Maybe we shouldn’t?
okay yeah maybe morally, but counterpoint:
thinking about it here: darker and edgier tooth fairy turned warlord does sound metal as fuck.
That’s not the only reason. Jesus claimed to be God, His followers worshipped Him, He performed miracles and ultimately died and rose again and was seen by many. Then ascended into heaven like a month later.
Yup, that’s the myth.
Oh…you’re serious.
And i can walk over water. You just have to believe me
I do it every time the pond freezes over. It’s fun. You slide around.
If you can get me several people who saw it and are willing to die for that fact, I’d believe you
The supposed water walking event wasn’t documented by anyone until 5 decades later. Paul never mentions it, all the other early writings don’t mention it, only in about 81AD or so did it appear. Where did Mark get it? We have no clue. Maybe he saw the optical illusion of people walking by water looking like they are walking on water, maybe local magicians were using the rocks underneath and he heard about, maybe it was symbolic that Cephus was involved and he wanted to talk more smack about the man (Mark really hated him), maybe there was a local play that had a god in it that did it. Point is the chain of evidence was broken.
And the deaths of the apostles are even more poorly documented. There was a huge incentive to lie about everything. We don’t know how James died, we suspect he was very old when it happened, there is a possible reference to him being killed as an old man but for what crimes we don’t know. The idea that he was killed for his beliefs doesn’t show up until nearly two centuries later in text form.
There couldn’t have been rocks underneath as Peter began to sink. John was the one who talked smack about Peter.
For historical accounts from that time, 5 decades after is rather close. Most records we have about history from that point in time are written centuries later. Generally copies of copies, etc. When mark wrote it though, there’d be several other guys who would have been there who could have said “actually this didn’t happen”, by this point they were spreading all over the world, but they already accepted Mark’s gospel.
Also worth noting that the 5 decades date primarily comes from the presumption that Jesus couldn’t have told the future in the Olivet discourse. Which if Christianity is true, the account could very well have come earlier.
I guess i have to buy some Fentanyl and start my first communion. Theyll get some bread too.
Where in the Bible did he claim to be God?
Jesus claiming to be God:
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.’
John 10:29-30
‘Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ (Exodus 3:14)
John 8:58
Jesus accepts worship:
Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’
John 20:28-29
Then those who were in the boat worshipped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’
Matthew 14:33
Suddenly Jesus met them. ‘Greetings,’ he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, ‘Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.’
Matthew 28:9-10
St Paul:
while we wait for the blessed hope – the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13
You notice how not a single one of these passages just says what you want it to say? Each one of them there is wiggle room. And each one of them only comes to us after the Trinity was an accepted idea and centuries of monks “corrected it”.
Any evidence that these manuscripts were tampered with after the Council of Nicea? (I assume that’s what you’re referring to as “Trinity” as an accepted idea, although the idea was accepted likely before these scriptures were even originally written)
The truth is even better: the masses were too dumb for his educated metaphors, the priests got in a huff, the colonizers decided they could solve a problem for the local leaders.
His followers got organized and staged an early death (crucifixion takes 20 hours not 3) with anaesthetic on a sponge, dude healed up for 3 days in a cave covered in myrrh etc and guarded by loyals, then showed up to his ragtag band of radicals and gave them the heads-up. Sends Thomas off to South India because he needs a challenge. Grabs peter paul and mary and off they go to Rome, incognito, to undermine the heart of the empire with some radical ideas.
After a couple of decades building community in Rome, Issa retires to Kashmir, just in time for the big buddhist conclave. He injects compassion and the notion of a self sacrificing avatar into the venerable but vibrant philosophy. He and Mary settle down and enjoy the lovely isolated valley and he dies an old man, having made a difference.
For a start, He would have been hanging there for possibly longer than three hours as he was already dead. Still baking in the sun. Keep in mind He was really brutally whipped before going there which would be enough to kill somebody, as well as staying up for hours, sweating blood long before as well. Crucifixion would have very much killed someone in that state in three hours. Every breath He’d take would cause his back to scrape against the rough wood and cause excruciating (literally) pain. Lastly, His side was pierced and it showed His lungs had collapsed. Then He was buried in a tomb, and guarded by ROMANS, not loyals. In the state He was in, He would have very much died there in the course of three days if He was somehow still alive. Not recovered.
Your last paragraph sounds AI generated lol
Nah, the story has all the markings of a gambit. It was retconned on the spot.
How does it have the markings of a gambit? No idea how a guy can survive that and just be okay. And also, were the disciples in on it? If so, how come they died refusing to renounce it? Jesus would have had to do this without their knowing as well.
Literally is, at least according to trinitarian doctrine. Handy diagram:
Which of course implies that “isness” is non-transitive which mathematically speaking is bonkers. I mean it’s not that you can’t have intransitive relations but calling them equivalences is going to raise eyebrows.
“Isness” definitely doesn’t need to be transitive.
It can be used to give properties to a subject. An apple is crisp, red, and 100g. Crisp isn’t red, red isn’t 100g, and 100g isn’t crisp.
It can also be used to specify a general case. Honeycrisp is an apple. Golden Delicious is an apple. Fuji is an apple. All three of Honeycrisp, Fuji and Golden Delicious are distinct.
An apple is crisp, red, and 100g. Crisp isn’t red, red isn’t 100g, and 100g isn’t crisp.
True, but then crisp isn’t apple, red isn’t apple, and 100g isn’t apple: All your examples have the property that if x is y, then y isn’t x, which means it’s an asymmetric relation, while in the trinity there’s symmetry: The father is god, god is the father.
Honeycrisp is an apple. Golden Delicious is an apple. Fuji is an apple
We can go further and say that apples are fruit, and that Honeycrisp are fruit. That is transitive.
What you’re describing is a strict partial order, which is not an equivalence, but the whole thing being some sort of equivalence is kinda important if Trinitarians want to be monotheists. Equivalences need to be reflexive, symmetric and transitive, at least if you ask mathematicians.
eh, Hercules and Bacchus are; similar situations. I say he gets a pass.
It is just one uppmanship. He didn’t start out being thought that way but people kept adding. Whole process took over two centuries
Yeah? Well! My gods son can beat up your gods son!
Some Gnostics went pretty quickly down the road of “he’s the real god, here to expose the demiurge (Yahweh, formerly known as Ba’al, according to them… But not according to Canaanite religion)”
Supposedly. I think a lot of scholars are in the process of reexamining what the Gnostics actually believed.
You’re not alone. Every Muslim thinks of Jesus as a prophet.
So what you’re saying is that you hate Jesus?
Have you been to one of his churches? Tried one of those wafers they say is him? He tastes awful.
Never met him. Read his stories, can’t say I care for any of the servitude required, and his followers are the worst humans you’ll run into around here.
No, thank you.
I hate him in the sense I hate any fictional character.
Don’t think he was really fleshed out, didn’t see the point in the larger narrative, and he has the worst fanbase. Even Rick and Morty has a better behaved fandom.
I can’t say I like him much:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:18
In other words, if you aren’t a Christian (which most people in history and alive today are not), you go straight to hell.
The “Prince of Peace” was all about kindness because your sinful ass would get tortured forever, so you might as well have a few nice years here.
I think you meant to post this in theologymemes
Theology sucks, all my homies in religion studies.
There is no Jesus, only Zuul
For context: This is Neptune, she is goddess.
All praise Nep Nep!
Praise with pudding
I mean . . .
All gods matter equally* (to me, at least).
Will you tell Him that to His face on judgement day?
I’d kick him right in the Jimmy for making that worm that burrows into children’s eyes in Africa, destroying their vision
Why not kick him for making you?
I know we haven’t been formerly introduced but user TimDave seems like a much cooler, and real, person compared to your Jesus myth. As far as I know TimDave has never ordered that his enemies be murdered and cast at his feet.
So why would he be upset about existing?
When did Jesus order that his enemies be murdered and cast at his feet?
Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
Luke 19:27
He sets up an analogy of himself as king and then has the king say that. It’s a weasel way of saying stuff. On the level of me taking a hand puppet out and making it say mean things. “Don’t get upset it was Mr. Scruffy that said it not me”.
I love how you were like “look! I’m not taking it out of context!” And proceed to take it out of context. You may have supposedly placed the characters, but you haven’t placed the timing. It’s clearly referring to the future events (the final judgement) when Christ’s enemies will be thrown to the place prepared for Satan and his angels. The story is about future events. No matter how you want to frame it, there is no way that’s a command to kill people in the present. Even a plain reading shows you this.
Luke 19:11 even shows that it is referring to the Kingdom of God, something which hasn’t come yet.
Bud, you’re not doing any good here. Your approach assumes the other person believes that Jesus is real. That’s like arguing for human rights with a Republican – it’s fundamentally against their ideals.
At least they’d never be able to say that they weren’t told about this.
Do you really think you’re the first Christian who’s told them this? Did they just emerge from the cave they’ve spent their entire life in just to post on Lemmy?
Christianity is obsessed with sending people to hell.
We aren’t the ones who condemn you to hell. You condemn yourself.
God fucked TimDave’s mother?
Does that mean TimDave is Jesus’ half-brother?
Sure.
before or after cockslapping the fuck out of him for turning a blind eye to all his followers diddling kids?
Do you really think He has turned a blind eye to that? Because He has not.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Luke 17:2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
so what you’re saying is he has turned a blind eye seeing as I’ve yet to see a bishop with a millstone, yeah?
yeah, I mean, if you have to reach back to an ancient book (that was written by man, and rewritten by man to suit the times and ideals numerous times there after) to find a case for"proof", then the proof is pretty much meanginless… unless the proof is to prove how condoned it is and how long they’ve been allowed to get away with it.
Bible hasn’t really been rewritten much. The ESV we have now is pretty accurate.
Its cute that you think that.
Are you posting from hell right now? 🤣
Your choice!
Is it?
Yes?
There is a pretty old debate that if God is all knowing then free will can’t be a thing. I was making an admittedly subtle reference to that.
Isn’t that Calvinism?
Calvinists were loony enough to consider that a feature. But it’s a rough philosophical spot for pretty much all flavors of Christianity.
The only judgement day anyone on earth needs to be concerned with is a Will Smith movie. All others are a load of horseshit.
How dare you ignore our Lord and Savior Terminator 2!
Damn, you’re right! My mistake, make it two Judgement Days
That’s what Satan wants you to think
Who’s that?
A mutated version of the story of Prometheus, or possibly a cousin with a long ago forgotten parent myth.
He will fuck you and you will beg him to do it again, but he’ll go play piano instead. So fickle, yet such a troubled mind…
Who?
God
So Zeus?
Cute.
Hmm before or after he unleashes mass murder and torture on earth? This is an important thing for me. I try to tell people I like them before they slaughter humans, not after.
Of course the best part never get mentioned:
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Jesus turns a woman into a sex slave forced to make rape babies and watch said babies get murdered.
Christianity everyone!
Another day, another Atheist taking the Bible out of context.
Revelation 2:18-29 ESV
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
If you actually read it in context and have an ounce of intelligence and honesty, it’s referring to someone who’s seducing men within the Church of Thyatira. But of course, if you read it in context, you won’t be able to make the weird conclusion you were trying to make. This is low, even for an Atheist argument.
Atheist lies to make a stupid point
Atheism, everyone!
There is no context that makes sex slavery and infanticide acceptable. It doesn’t matter what her supposed sins are. This is a new low even for Christian “thought”.
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Where does it mention sexual slavery?
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It sounds like you’re upset when God punishes sin. So you’re upset both when God does something and when God doesn’t do something? How can this be? Do you want God to just let us be evil without punishment?
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How come it’s wrong when The Creator of the universe takes a life He ordained, but it’s perfectly acceptable when a woman has an abortion? Her body her choice? What about His universe His choice? I see a double standard appearing.
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The part where she is confined to her bed with her lovers and watching her babies get murdered
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Yes I am upset that anyone would believe sexual slavery and infanticide is an appropriate punishment. It makes me wonder about the people who think this is acceptable. Torture is bad, rape is bad, murder is bad.
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Now you are just throwing stuff at the wall.
Anyway enjoy your block I can’t get into yet another argument with a xian who thinks rape is fine.
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Why wait?
Irrelevant since this isn’t a thing.
Still don’t get the unhealthy obsession with that fantasy book.
What counts as an unhealthy obsession? And what fantasy book?
Yep. I’m going to be judged anyway for being an atheist and for being born one of those heathen Jews (I even had a bar mitzvah!), so why not?
I’m going to hell either way. Might as well get my say in.
