Just because there were Messiah figures does not mean that you get to argue your particular one existed. A class has a population, that doesn’t mean X exists or was a member of that class.
We can be very confident that James existed, we have people writing about his school/organization/temple, at least one person claims to have met him, and we have the fourth Gospel whose path very likely came via his group. Now, since we got James we have to ask can we get a particular Messiah figure that was either his brother or so close that people said he was his brother? Any random Messiah figure isn’t going to cut it. It’s not enough that there were street preachers, we need one connected to James.
And no I don’t think the Sermon on the Mount happened. It is likely Matthew and Luke (Sermon on the Plain) were copying from the same source. A written pastoral document that was no where near as well written.
Just because there were Messiah figures does not mean that you get to argue your particular one existed.
Fortunately, there’s a bit more evidence on the table in the form of oral and written testimonials, art objects, and buildings dedicated in his name.
We can be very confident that James existed, we have people writing about his school/organization/temple, at least one person claims to have met him, and we have the fourth Gospel whose path very likely came via his group. Now, since we got James we have to ask can we get a particular Messiah figure that was either his brother or so close that people said he was his brother?
If we’re crediting the Gospel of James as a credible record of an individual’s existence, I’m hard pressed to dismiss the Gospels of Mark and Luke, which are older and at least as credible.
And no I don’t think the Sermon on the Mount happened.
So we’re putting all our chips on “A particular popular rabbi with a large following never got on top of a hill and held a sermon in front of an audience that failed to bring enough food along for lunch”?
And the argument boils down to “I just don’t think the Q-document is credible enough”?
shrug
Of all the various parables and miraculous events attributed in the New Testament, I would consider “Guy gives speech to large hungry crowd and then feeds them” one of the least controversial.
Fortunately, there’s a bit more evidence on the table in the form of oral and written testimonials, art objects, and buildings dedicated in his name.
Only contemporary first hand evidence. Not what some zealots said nine centuries later.
f we’re crediting the Gospel of James as a credible record of an individual’s existence, I’m hard pressed to dismiss the Gospels of Mark and Luke, which are older and at least as credible.
No. I am crediting Paul since I can’t see why on earth he would make up a character like James, I am crediting the Gospel of Thomas as predating Mark and mentioning him, I am also pointing out that we can see traces of his impact in John. I don’t need the Gospel of James. Btw Luke just copied Matthew and Matthew just coped Mark.
So we’re putting all our chips on “A particular popular rabbi with a large following never got on top of a hill and held a sermon in front of an audience that failed to bring enough food along for lunch”?
I don’t think the man existed. And even if he had existed and gave that speech I think you are ignoring the fact that the miracle is clearly a reference to the OT story about food multiplication. It isn’t that it is impossible to have happened it is there is an easier way to explain where the story came from. Imagine a thousand years from now someone like you is arguing for Spiderman and saying “isn’t it possible someone could swing around the city”. “Sure but the people at that time had a story about a superhero who could do that so that is where it probably came from”.
Of all the various parables and miraculous events attributed in the New Testament, I would consider “Guy gives speech to large hungry crowd and then feeds them” one of the least controversial.
Cool? None of them happened. Every single miracle he performs we can trace back to the literature that existed at the time.
Just because there were Messiah figures does not mean that you get to argue your particular one existed. A class has a population, that doesn’t mean X exists or was a member of that class.
We can be very confident that James existed, we have people writing about his school/organization/temple, at least one person claims to have met him, and we have the fourth Gospel whose path very likely came via his group. Now, since we got James we have to ask can we get a particular Messiah figure that was either his brother or so close that people said he was his brother? Any random Messiah figure isn’t going to cut it. It’s not enough that there were street preachers, we need one connected to James.
And no I don’t think the Sermon on the Mount happened. It is likely Matthew and Luke (Sermon on the Plain) were copying from the same source. A written pastoral document that was no where near as well written.
Fortunately, there’s a bit more evidence on the table in the form of oral and written testimonials, art objects, and buildings dedicated in his name.
If we’re crediting the Gospel of James as a credible record of an individual’s existence, I’m hard pressed to dismiss the Gospels of Mark and Luke, which are older and at least as credible.
So we’re putting all our chips on “A particular popular rabbi with a large following never got on top of a hill and held a sermon in front of an audience that failed to bring enough food along for lunch”?
And the argument boils down to “I just don’t think the Q-document is credible enough”?
shrug
Of all the various parables and miraculous events attributed in the New Testament, I would consider “Guy gives speech to large hungry crowd and then feeds them” one of the least controversial.
Only contemporary first hand evidence. Not what some zealots said nine centuries later.
No. I am crediting Paul since I can’t see why on earth he would make up a character like James, I am crediting the Gospel of Thomas as predating Mark and mentioning him, I am also pointing out that we can see traces of his impact in John. I don’t need the Gospel of James. Btw Luke just copied Matthew and Matthew just coped Mark.
I don’t think the man existed. And even if he had existed and gave that speech I think you are ignoring the fact that the miracle is clearly a reference to the OT story about food multiplication. It isn’t that it is impossible to have happened it is there is an easier way to explain where the story came from. Imagine a thousand years from now someone like you is arguing for Spiderman and saying “isn’t it possible someone could swing around the city”. “Sure but the people at that time had a story about a superhero who could do that so that is where it probably came from”.
Cool? None of them happened. Every single miracle he performs we can trace back to the literature that existed at the time.
Again, we have ample documentation from the era to conclude a Rabbi gave a speech on a hill to a crowd
Show it to me. Contemporary evidence only