I have a problem with the willingly in this thought.
The issue is that people are pretty unwilling to be homeless or starve if there’s an alternative (no matter how terrible).
Working is the worst way to prevent yourself from starvation and homelessness except for all of the others.
But we don’t need to accept a dictatorship to work. We should be working towards democratizing the workplace, forming unions, and creating worker owned businesses.
Yes, agreed 100%. Should. Til then though, still gotta eat and also not be homeless.
Yep. We have to deal with it for now, but we shouldn’t accept it as the way I has to be. People should be going to their work and speaking with their coworkers about unions and other options. We’re all in this together against the owners. They try to turn us against each other.
The issue is that people are pretty unwilling to be homeless or starve if there’s an alternative (no matter how terrible).
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but I’ve been homeless before and I don’t think it’s an “issue” that I don’t want to go back to that.
It’s not an issue, that’s just an effect of the sarcastic phrasing. There’s kind of an embedded notion within the original thought that people actually do this by choice. I think most work in dictatorial companies because there’s really no other choice except destitution.
Thanks, that’s what I figured since my experience has been have a job or be homeless and it really is my ass onto the street as soon as there is only small unemployment checks.
Working is better than being homeless for most people. Because you can, doesnt mean everyone can.
I agree but that doesn’t really clear up what I was trying to understand?
Lots of people are not willing to die for democracy, some even fight against it out of ignorance or powerlust.
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The power a government has over you, and the power your employer has over you, are totally different.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can’t do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
Some people believe democracy is what prevents the government from punishing you capriciously, or allowing corporations to just do whatever they want to you. So they are willing to die to defend it.
I would say traditional liberal ideals are closer to what they’d want to defend than democracy itself, and I don’t 100% agree in either case, but I can see the point of view.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can’t do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
there was just a work email put out where I work about how employees shouldn’t be going to the bathroom super often and if they are in the bathroom they should only be doing bathroom things.
I can’t report them for that but it is fucking extreme and dehumanizing. To be policed in the bathroom. Because company time is more important than bodily functions. Or whatever other reason someone might be in the bathroom.
I get this sucks but you can quit your job and walk away from your employer, theoretically.
If the government decides to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, or your life, you can’t walk away from it and find a new government.
Your boss and your government are just totally different.
I get this sucks but you can quit your job and walk away from your employer, theoretically.
Yeah and be homeless.
And I don’t participate in government shit unless I have to like taxes cause they’ll come for me if I don’t pay for them kind of thing.
I mean that’s the difference right there, right? If you quit your job, you’re homeless. If you don’t pay taxes, you’re arrested.
Homelessness is almost always illegal either directly or indirectly through loitering laws, hostile architecture, bans against begging etc… Also, they almost always have zero protection from criminal behaviour directed at them (from either other citizens or the police themselves). Thinking there is legal room for being homeless is a pretty ignorant take no matter where you are from.
If you don’t pay taxes, you’re arrested
what? Depends on the numbers I think.
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If you think your boss can just murder you I’m not sure what to tell you.
I mean there’s a history of employers actually killing employees for unionizing. It’s not a secret.
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Exactly.
My boss is slowly killing me. He claims 8 hours of my life every day, except weekends, and who knows how many I have left.
I don’t think most people would consider this slowly killing you, except in the most metaphorical sense.
I will break far before I’m allowed to retire
That’s not what dictatorship means
Workplaces are structured without democracy by default, and adding democracy can be helpful to workplace problems.
It’s a job, not a country you’re living in.
And? I shouldn’t get a say? Without a say workers deal with being underpaid, and unsafe conditions. Sometimes the federal government helps fix this. But better yet form a strike, use the collective action to get a fairer workplace.
You do get a say in safety, there are very harsh laws if companies get reported not following safety measures. I think everyone is asking for more pay lol, but that has nothing to do with democracy. You only should have a say for so much, there are many things that only those with certain education should have a say. Because again, it’s not a country.
there are many things that only those with certain education should have a say.
The rich are not smarter than us!
asking for more pay lol, but that has nothing to do with democracy
Getting more pay often requires democratic actions. Striking, unionizing. Unions democratize a workplace by providing leverage behind workers concerns.
there are very harsh laws if companies get reported not following safety measures.
You must not be American. From an American perspective, employers are basically lawless.
The eventual theoretical climax being siezing the means of production. Then there is no longer an owner or board of shareholders with structural heirarchical control over what is made, who makes it, and how much they are paid.
You must not be American. From an American perspective, employers are basically lawless.
I can tell that you have never dealt with an OSHA inspection. Like all things government, most of the rules make sense, some of them don’t, and some things should be covered but aren’t. It still breaks my brain that propane gas tank forklifts used indoors are allowed but an audible pneumatic hose leak supposedly isn’t.
I have seen Cleatus scream about how they can’t run their line because they hear a hose leak and use the forklift to drive to the break room. Sigh.
Education does not mean rich. There’s still a workplace hierarchy in socialism, and even communism. Of course America is brought up for no reason lol. You don’t understand what you’re talking about, and that’s not even true.
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Someone tells you what to do, and you have to obey or else you lose your housing, healthcare, and other basic necessities.
This is so wrong. You are not entitled to basic necessities. You have to provide them for yourself, that is the natural order. This is what most of humanity did for milenia via subsistence farming and it sucked.
Sooner or later people decided that working in a factory sucked a little less than working in the field. Then more recently, people decided working in an office sucked a little less than working in the factory.
Employment is not slavery. You can quit anytime.
I think they just want to roleplay some ideology that doesn’t actually exist or possibly function. This is another reminder that comment scores have nothing to do with how sane or correct the comment is lol.
Just because A and B have overlap doesn’t mean A = B. My boss can’t throw me in a jail cell or have me shot.
Yes, because that’s not what happens lol. You don’t immediately lose those things unless you sit around and do nothing. That’s true of literally everything, even communism.
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pay bills past their due.
I hate that all my bills are like forced automation so I can’t plan out when I can pay them, I’m forced to pay them all at the beginning/end of the month - there’s no options to change the date any more and if you call up and ask, they get all weepy and apologize that they can’t offer a different date to pay.
So I’m just forced to let them all go through and then play catch up cause of how I get paid not lining up with the end/start of every month.
Thankfully my job will reimburse me for one of my bills but of course they take fucking forever to process the reimbursement.
Have you tried getting them move to a strange dat, like the 14th? Might work.
Nah, they won’t do it anymore.
You went off into a completely separate topic. Also union fights for workers, but it does not imply a democracy. It just means being able to fight back against exploitation. There will still be a CEO in charge and you’ll have no say.
You are incorrect. I absolutely run my businesses as a dictatorship because I’m the owner. We don’t “vote” on what to do, if you don’t like my ideas you are FIRED. Same goes for my tenants, if you don’t like my rules then get out of my property!!
I dictatorship would mean they’d die if they didn’t do what you liked lol. It’s in a government context, not a contractual obligation. A tennet can find another place to live, and a worker can find another company.
In what world does a dictatorship require everyone else to die if they don’t agree? They have control over the institution, but they don’t have total control over every individual.
You do not know what you are talking about. If you want to run your business as a democracy fine but you won’t be successful. I will continue running mine with an iron fist as a dictatorship.
I will continue running mine with an iron fist as a dictatorship
Why do you talk like you’re in a kung fu movie?
It’s literally the definition, you are just objectively wrong
You are wrong, and stop telling me how to run my business
god forbid someone steal a packet of soy sauce.
Stealing anything from a place of business is unforgivable
On which border is it common to cross from a democracy to a dictatorship for work?
I think the idea is that most workplaces are dictatorships
We have a choice not to work?
Choosing death by starvation is not a choice. Work or die, slave.
You think a company should pay you even if you decide not to work? As much as I wish the universe rained down food, housing, and smart phone but the reality is that it cares not of you get a meal at the end of the day.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
There are better systems that require you not to die when you dont work.
Really? Like other people take out your garbage and bringing you your food and build your house.
The universe cares less if you starve but we do live in a time when we have to do very little work to survive quite well.
Companies are already paying people who decide to not work - their owners.
Ya ok.
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
This must be the same thought process of the people I see living in camping vans and tents down the street from me.
It’s… not weird at all. Democracy is a form of governance that permeates all our lives and controls the state that has a monopoly of violence that can be used against us and take away our rights. It’s not something we can opt-out of so it’s important that everyone has a say in it.
Small groups forming to do things like commerce or non-profits or whatever are completely voluntary and can’t take our rights away. The fact is, these authoritarian-like structures are efficient and effective. Even employee-owned corporations tend to organize this way by electing the officers.
Would love to see more companies experiment with democratic organizations though.
Arguably technology has changed this paradigm a lot. More people now just means more thinkers, who work best not under stress
There is a difference even between an autocracy and a dictatorship. There’s a difference between specialization and dictatorship.
The things you don’t fully grasp should get questions; not the host outrageous label you can think of at the time.
In a workplace you’re trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Democracy works with government because most voters are also taxpayers. There’s a an incentive not to vote for things that aren’t affordable because the people voting have to pay for it.
Plenty of businesses function with workers in control.
Also, the basic understanding (though not totally accurate) is that customers do vote on prices by choosing what, where, and when to purchase. The issue is they don’t organize to vote on it, and businesses do shady deals to rig the vote.
In a workplace you’re trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Isn’t that supply and demand? If something doesn’t sell enough, it stops being on the shelf. You vote with your purchases.
Some places even give out surveys where you would rate the person who helped you. Some places take those surveys seriously and if you get bad ratings, they fire you.
Which is why I only give five star rating for my rideshare driver.
yeah I use to work at a place that had “CSAT” I don’t remember what it stands for but a lot of companies use it and some use it more than others.
Basically it’s the same but usually those surveys provide open ended comments where the customers can rip you a new one if they feel like they didn’t get what they wanted. You could be telling a customer no based on policy, and then a manage will see the bad review and use that to give you a talking to about work improvement.
It’s so incredibly backwards.
Sucks dude
I worked for a cooperative once. It had its upsides. But it eventually lost steam because of the diffusion of responsibility. At its peak it had a strong core council of 5-7 official members looking after it and it flourished. But it was somewhat of a labor of love and over time they had kids, moved away, etc and eventually there just weren’t enough committed core people to keep it going.
A small business generally has one person who is ready to do absolutely whatever it takes to make it a success. This can be game changing. All their skin is in the game. If they have to skip a paycheck they do. If they have to work all night they do.
You know, a dictator, as you call them -_-
And if you work at a company and the leadership becomes burdened with other life events? They delegate management to someone whose job it is to keep things running smoothly.
Co-ops can work that way too lol, there’s a co-op in Spain with 75,000 employees.
TL;DR people forget that like 90% of businesses fail, of fucking course co-ops are no different
Noo! But you see, when communard syndicalist cooperatives fail they expose the inherent contradictions within socialism itself!!!
Not sure I’d die for democracy… it’s a popularity contest where 80 year old millionaires compete to see who looks best in a suit.
Freedom, sure. But that’s not the same thing.
You’re describing a representational democracy. What do you think about direct democracy?
That’s elections, democracy is a system of government by consent
But I agree with the current state of US and UK politics, 2 party systems are only better because a 1 party system is even worse
You can go to work for yourself, you can’t fork your own country.
cognitive dissonance or something
People are not willing to die for democracy.
People are willing to die doe their cunt tree.
I don’t have a choice. If I wanna do the kind of work I enjoy and pays enough to feed my family, I have to submit to corporate dictatorship.
