Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We’re only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I’m not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren’t are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it’s also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it’s nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we’re expected to grit our teeth and “walk it off.”
I hope I’m not intruding on men’s spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender’s social dynamics. Men just don’t get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what’s the point of “equality” if we don’t lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn’t fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I’m blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I’m transfemme myself
but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men.
Not really. Power has traditionally been held by couples, with men putting on the act and women pulling the strings behind the scenes. Our forefathers even created an entire institution known as marriage to establish these alliances formally. In fact, for a long, time women were more likely to be a part of the anti-suffragism movement than of the suffragism movement.
Even voting rights at the time were attached to land, not people. Before industrialization, it was impractical to own land without an entire family available to tend to it. A single man would never be able to cut the wood, grow the crops, care for the animals, and do all the household chores. There isn’t enough time in the day. As such, land ownership too was for couples – thus voting was for couples.
Industrialization was the turning point. It brought increasing opportunities to live a life alone, and those alone started growing more and more disgruntled about a world made for couples.
I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I don’t. Such movements happen because of technical advancement. Industrialization, as mentioned, was a pivotal time not only for suffrage but a number of movements. The rise of automation, freeing even more hands from the kitchen, was also a significant period with respect to these topics. These things would have never happened without those new, at the time, technologies changing the way we live.
When the world changes, then people change. There is little evidence that people can change ahead of the world. After all, things happen for a reason. There was logic in giving power to couples at some point in history – until the world changed and it no longer made sense.
Similarly, men are guarded today for a reason. Until some technical advancement lifts that reason from hanging over their heads, it isn’t going anywhere. Going to war against an immovable object doesn’t yield well.
First, this is a long comment, and I don’t want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.
I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women’s suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.
In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley’s crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.
Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)
Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.
Thank you for sharing. I haven’t figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I’m a dad and wasn’t going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There’s a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don’t have enough support, so let’s give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It’s the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he’s part of the patriarchy, suppressing women’s voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
I’m sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that’s terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.”
I’m confused why you wouldn’t want him to see them. Isn’t in your best interest to have people who love you and think you’re a good dad in your kids’ lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Oh I’m fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn’t hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was “cut off.” So, despite the fact I’m sad that my mother can’t see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn’t right.
I will also mention my brother was “cut off” because of his close associations with me.
I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.
So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.
And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.
Sorry to hear that you went through that.
In a perfect world I could have had an amicable divorce from my ex and everybody could have stayed in touch and been happy.
Instead I had a “Michael Bay” divorce where everything went really explosive and badly. It’s sad because I see a lot of example – such as our own prime minister – who have a great divorce where everybody is respectful and mature and life goes happily on.
I’ve tried to explain to my dad how screwed up it is that he maintains a relationship with my ex despite my zero contact with my kids but he doesn’t care. Actually, he went to my exes wedding with her new husband last month, which involved him flying to my city. He didn’t visit me, which is really the extra cherry on the shit sundae.
Yeah, divorce was similar for me. I was discussing and considering collaborative divorce with my lawyer until I was served the restraining order…which I got dismissed. That started about 2 years of legal theater propelled by stupid amounts of money.
You do find out just how selfish your family is when you go through a divorce, don’t you? And how little they really care about you.
At a certain point I went “Bush” on family/friends: If you’re not for me then you’re against me. I still think it brought me back to some sort of sanity in dealing with people. And taking the trash people out of my life.
You have 0% custody? Otherwise your mother could see your kids whenever you have them, right?
In “theory” or “legally” I have 50-50 custody. In practice, it’s nearly impossible to enforce visitation with older children. My kids were 15 and 9 when we split. Immediately, the courts said enforcement on the 15-year-old was impossible. I spent a few years battling enforcement on the 9-year-old but she soon also became unenforceable. At a certain point you can’t win if the kids also don’t want to see you or make your visit a nightmare by passively resisting.
I was in the middle of one of these court battles when my daughter became anorexic and told the medical staff she didn’t want me to visit her in hospital. She was about 13 and that was the last I saw her.
Legally, I am a 50-50 parent but in reality the only thing I’m entitled to do is pay their mother $1,000 a month.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He’s a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can’t imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don’t know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it’s only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it’s a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently “forgot” to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That’s my experience, too. Most of the times I’ve opened up to a girlfriend, it’s turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We’ve had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I’m not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
He’s a fool if he thinks he’s going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that’s enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He’s going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he’s looking for. That’s just how men operate.
well, women also get more attention therefor they are less lonely. Just look at dating apps: women get flooded with likes and messages, but men… good luck getting a like and if you get one, good luck getting a conversation where you are not the only one putting some effort.
I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do
Is this actually a thing? I’ve always moved away from everyone’s path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I’ve ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn’t make room for other people.
Oh, it’s totally a thing. I’m a woman and short, so I’m below the eye line of most men, and I’ve had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they’ll get annoyed if you don’t. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don’t know if it shows on my face.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men’s issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I’m a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men’s issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:- I don’t know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
- What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
- How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
- What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
- What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
- What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.
I don’t want to wear out my welcome so I’ll stop there. No rush to answer, I’d prefer more complete answers to quick ones.
- For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they’re high-stakes. That’s not to say that I don’t feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don’t feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
- I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
- I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
- I thought on this one for a while and couldn’t come up with a strong response that doesn’t just parrot the talking points of this community.
- I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
- Before transitioning I didn’t understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It’s often frustrating to see people rag on men’s or women’s behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.
I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it’s all men, versus when there’s a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you’re in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
If you yearn for a male only space, check out the Freemasons. There’s something there for everyone, and it’s a great way to make friends later in life.
Would you be able to answer some more questions please? I’m interested to hear more of your opinion and experience!
- Did you find as a man you are taken more seriously by employers and coworkers? Do you find your opinion became more valuable?
- What do you find are disadvantages of being a male?
Thank you!
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I did not find that people take me more seriously at work as a man. However, I work in tech and all companies I have worked are focused on ensuring that women have an equal place at the table. I imagine that other fields yield different results. – I did want to note that I had the opposite experience with healthcare. As a woman, doctors were less likely to take me seriously. As a man, they take anything I say to be the truth and trust me to make decisions.
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Disadvantages of being male are:
- People are more reluctant to help you with anything and everything, as if he’s a man, so he’s got it.
- Harder to date and socialize. It’s downright isolating at times.
- Strangers are less likely to trust you.
- There are fewer social programs to help men in need. I was homeless for a spell and there were no shelters for men, for example.
- It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
- Strangers are more likely to be violent towards men.
- Must be careful around women so they don’t think I am a danger. For example, if walking at night and a woman is coming from the opposite direction I feel obligated to cross the street so they don’t think I’m going to attack or harass them.
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As a minor example supporting a lot of what’s in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, “I don’t know, I didn’t ask”. She seemed shocked and can’t understand why I say we don’t have those kinds of conversations.
It’s very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It’s not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It’s spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it’s either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who’ve actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn’t separated us.
When I open up to women, it’s either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don’t anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
I’m mtf, being a woman made my life much much easier
I knew women were the superior gender all along
“So I went down to Shelbyville and engaged in casual sexism against men, which was the style of the time…”
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As others have said, it’s not just men that perceive that negatively; women do also. I can’t recall who said it, but feminism has meant that there are many different ways to be a woman now, but there is still only one socially acceptable way to be a man. The social consequences to men for being emotionally vulnerable can mean the loss of all social connections; I know that I lost about 3/4 of the people I thought were friends when I failed to successfully complete suicide. That creates a very strong disincentive to being vulnerable in the future.
Men aren’t “broken” just because we interact differently than women. It may be news to that trans man, but we don’t have the same emotional needs as women. We interact in ways that work for us. It is fashionable today to refer to all masculinity as toxic, but we are not the same as women, hard stop. Stop trying to pretend that we are.
I think it’s worth examining how much of this is internalized toxic masculinity versus an innate feature of men.
I believe that’s why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That’s accurate, but doesn’t convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women’s incomplete attempts were deemed to be a “cry for help” rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
rant incoming:
oh come on 4:1 consistently on an almost global scale is way too far to say that all of these women’s attempts are sincere, 4:1 is batshit. it’s the same as when someone says ‘ive attempted ten times’, cause no they didnt, if they did genuinely theyd certainly be dead. theyre not ‘cries for help’, theyre more like them getting internal validation for their feelings. garbaj on youtube made a great video about the romantising of alcholism but it applies here too. i know what i said is a tough pill to swallow but thats the cold truth. im not saying women en masse arent depressed or that theyre doing it for attention, i am saying far less of them are sincerely suicidal and want internal validation of their depression. same shit with sh, it becomes a contest of who can hurt themselves the most as you dont feel your pain is legitmate. people also do this wjth the whole ‘i only got 4 hours sleep’ ‘i only got 2 shut up’ ‘my life is harder, you had it easy’ ‘i drink 4 beers a day’ ‘yeah wrll i drink a bottle of vodka’. people may or may not say this stuff out loud but people definitely fucking feel it deep down and start hurting themselves to feel like their emotions are justified. people need to get that someone having it ‘worse’ or ‘better’ means jackshit to your feelings, the whole ‘be grateful’ for what you have cause ‘a kid in africa…’ narrative is such a fucking dogshit way of thinking and leads to this shit by undermining and delegitmising feelings. if youre unhappy, you dont need to prove it. just cause someone needs alcohol to cope doesnt mean their circumstances are worse / feelings are more valid (those two things do not directly impact one another, dont think i mean that). even if their feelings were ‘more valid’ somehow, why the fuck does that matter to yours. this isnt some sucide competition, your depression is independent of theirs, they have no relationship.
Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it’s just the way we are.
in some ways it’s just the way we are.
Is it? What makes you think that our loneliness is inherent to us? How is it inherent to us?
I’m just saying that men in general have a much easier time being alone. I don’t think we should always be alone, but more men than women have the ability to be solitary and happy at the same time.
What if being solitary and happy has zero foundation in being a “man” but comes about from being rejected by society as the man one is?
You do realize half of society is men right?
And the other 50% is women, some of whom are solitary and happy because we don’t fit society’s idea of what a woman should be.
Sit down.
Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like “men arent like women, and therefore broken”?
Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don’t want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don’t want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That’s not the kind of friendship I like or want.
I guess that makes me broken!
I mean it does because those things only make you uncomfortable because you’ve been conditioned your entire life to feel that way just because you’re a man.
Those things are basic human companionship.
And it’s all perfectly fine to not want that.
The issue is there is a heavy expectation for all men to be like that. Many of us, me included, are not at all, and are often ridiculed for it.
100% mate.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don’t tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don’t want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it’s to vent about someone because I’m angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I’m here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone’s boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I’ll get the guys and we’ll go to the pub, she’s a cunt you’re better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
