what i surmise from your approach is that majority rules, and since the majority signs off on imperialism and genocide, the rest of your community is wrong and anyone who takes their view is antisemitic.
There’s no imperialism or genocide in Israel. Jews are indigenous to Israel and the land was partitioned by the United Nations in accordance with international law, just as Pakistan and India were as well as many other states. Only Israel, the only Jewish state on the planet, is treated this way. Not hard to guess why. If the Palestinians hadn’t declared war in 1948, 1967, 1972, then the First and Second Intifadas, now the October 7th Holocaust, they’d have their own state by now. Unforuntately, they’ve shown repeatedly that they cannot yet be trusted to run a nation-state with military capabilities. The Denazification process of Palestine would have to be given time to work through first, just like it did in Germany after the Second World War.
yes there is. they are systematically dispossessing the palestinian people of their homes and killing them indiscriminately. they are witholding food, clean water, and medical supplies. it’s a genocide and it’s being executed by an imperialist arm of britain (and the us).
hey are systematically dispossessing the palestinian people of their homes and killing them indiscriminately.
If they were killing indiscriminately the war would have been over within a week.
The occupation of the West Bank and illegal settlements are a disaster, a moral catastrophe, and one of the major roadblocks to peace between Israel and Palestine. It’s to the eternal shame of Netanyahu and his far-right allies that they haven’t been put a stop to.
they are witholding food, clean water, and medical supplies.
This isn’t true. There are multiple entry-points into Gaza and have been for weeks. The problem is a lack of international aid and the difficulty in distributing it within Gaza, because Hamas repeatedly steal the resources before it can get into civilian hands.
it’s a genocide and it’s being executed by an imperialist arm of britain (and the us).
they shut off the water. they blockaded the ports. they struck a bakery after the grain had reached it. you and i must have disparate definitions of “true”.
Look, rather than go back and forwards, I’m going to send you a few links to discussions or articles that I found really helpful in seeing the Israeli point of view on this. I’ve been involved in the campaign for Palestinian rights for many years. My ex-partner is Palestinian, though in Lebanon. I hope you watch and/or read them because I found them really, really helpful. I hope you can appreciate that I’m coming at this in good faith, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to write all this out, you know?
Ezra Klein’s interviews for the New York Times Podcast have been really helpful. He does interview plenty of Palestinians too, of course, but then you clearly don’t need anyone to present you with the Palestinian perspective.
Our False Partners: Progressives who divide the world into ‘oppressors’ and ‘the oppressed’ are not our allies. This one reflects a more widespread, and I think correct, concern that there’s something in the identity politics framework of everything being about oppressor/oppressed which has led the left to a moral catastrophe in the wake of October 7th and which everyone except many on the left has recognised and been horrified by. When Jews are (incorrectly) coded as white, and the Palestinians as non-white, it fits into a simplistic and binary framework which isn’t compatible with the conflict it’s meant to understand.
I think you are, without realising it, repeating antisemitic ideas. I don’t know if you’re an antisemite. I do doubt it. And I think rather than get defensive about that, you should consider whether you might be doing that unintentionally, and hear the other perspective to see why that might be the case. And then you can decide whether you are or aren’t. Same as you would, I hope, if challenged on any other form of racism or prejudice you might, unintentionally, be spreading, as all of us on the left would.
opposing the existence of the state is a central tenant of communism. opposing the existence of the state is a central tenant of anarchism. opposing the existence of the state was a central tenant of the first international. it’s a central tenant of the second international.
if you don’t oppose the existence of every state including Israel you are not a leftist.
Nobody questions Pakistan or India’s right to exist, even though they were created the same way as Israel was, and with significantly more bloodshed and loss of life – millions dead, in fact – and on the basis of religious faith. There’s hardly any Hindus left in Pakistan, but about 20% of Israel are Arabs including Druze, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, and nomadic Bedouins. They serve at every level of the country – from courts to the Knesset, enjoy the exact same set of civil rights as any other citizen of Israel including the right to vote, uniquely among any country in the Middle East.
The reason is that Israel is a Jewish state, and people hate Jews.
The reason is that Israel is a Jewish state, and people hate Jews.
you’re wrong. i oppose nation states and i have particular issues with each of them. we’re discussing israel right now so you’re going to hear my specific problems with israel.
i mean fuck the media. corporate media can all die in a fire. i think there is some legitimacy to the argument that this conflict (and others in israel) recieve a disproportionate amount of coverage. that, of course, would lead to more discussions of the validity of their state. but i assure you my stance on the existence of any state starts with “states are tools of oppression”.
what i surmise from your approach is that majority rules, and since the majority signs off on imperialism and genocide, the rest of your community is wrong and anyone who takes their view is antisemitic.
There’s no imperialism or genocide in Israel. Jews are indigenous to Israel and the land was partitioned by the United Nations in accordance with international law, just as Pakistan and India were as well as many other states. Only Israel, the only Jewish state on the planet, is treated this way. Not hard to guess why. If the Palestinians hadn’t declared war in 1948, 1967, 1972, then the First and Second Intifadas, now the October 7th Holocaust, they’d have their own state by now. Unforuntately, they’ve shown repeatedly that they cannot yet be trusted to run a nation-state with military capabilities. The Denazification process of Palestine would have to be given time to work through first, just like it did in Germany after the Second World War.
yes there is. they are systematically dispossessing the palestinian people of their homes and killing them indiscriminately. they are witholding food, clean water, and medical supplies. it’s a genocide and it’s being executed by an imperialist arm of britain (and the us).
If they were killing indiscriminately the war would have been over within a week.
The occupation of the West Bank and illegal settlements are a disaster, a moral catastrophe, and one of the major roadblocks to peace between Israel and Palestine. It’s to the eternal shame of Netanyahu and his far-right allies that they haven’t been put a stop to.
This isn’t true. There are multiple entry-points into Gaza and have been for weeks. The problem is a lack of international aid and the difficulty in distributing it within Gaza, because Hamas repeatedly steal the resources before it can get into civilian hands.
Ugh
this smacks of “it can’t be genocide because population has grown”.
they literally shot the hostages they say the want freed.
they shut off the water. they blockaded the ports. they struck a bakery after the grain had reached it. you and i must have disparate definitions of “true”.
this isn’t a rebuttal.
Look, rather than go back and forwards, I’m going to send you a few links to discussions or articles that I found really helpful in seeing the Israeli point of view on this. I’ve been involved in the campaign for Palestinian rights for many years. My ex-partner is Palestinian, though in Lebanon. I hope you watch and/or read them because I found them really, really helpful. I hope you can appreciate that I’m coming at this in good faith, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to write all this out, you know?
Ezra Klein’s interviews for the New York Times Podcast have been really helpful. He does interview plenty of Palestinians too, of course, but then you clearly don’t need anyone to present you with the Palestinian perspective.
What Israelis Fear the World Does Not Understand - interview with Yossi Klein Halevi, author of ‘Letters to my Palestinian Neighbor’.
A Different Path Israel Could Have Taken — and Maybe Still Can
The Jewish Left Is Trying to Hold Two Thoughts At Once
Simon Sebag Montefiore: The Impact of Conflicting Histories in the Israel-Hamas and Russia-Ukraine Wars’. He wrote a highly celebrated history of Jerusalem which tried to emphasise the legitimacy of both the Palestinians and the Jews and the Christians and their ties to the city, and he has both Arab and Jewish heritage. He wrote a really great piece for The Atlantic recently which was crucial for me. 'The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False: It does not accurately describe either the foundation of Israel or the tragedy of the Palestinians.. That one’s really key for me.
Our False Partners: Progressives who divide the world into ‘oppressors’ and ‘the oppressed’ are not our allies. This one reflects a more widespread, and I think correct, concern that there’s something in the identity politics framework of everything being about oppressor/oppressed which has led the left to a moral catastrophe in the wake of October 7th and which everyone except many on the left has recognised and been horrified by. When Jews are (incorrectly) coded as white, and the Palestinians as non-white, it fits into a simplistic and binary framework which isn’t compatible with the conflict it’s meant to understand.
this is a classic gish gallop.
i’ll accept your apology any time for your insinuations that i’m antisemitic and that i am defending antisemitism.
I think you are, without realising it, repeating antisemitic ideas. I don’t know if you’re an antisemite. I do doubt it. And I think rather than get defensive about that, you should consider whether you might be doing that unintentionally, and hear the other perspective to see why that might be the case. And then you can decide whether you are or aren’t. Same as you would, I hope, if challenged on any other form of racism or prejudice you might, unintentionally, be spreading, as all of us on the left would.
opposing the existence of the state is a central tenant of communism. opposing the existence of the state is a central tenant of anarchism. opposing the existence of the state was a central tenant of the first international. it’s a central tenant of the second international.
if you don’t oppose the existence of every state including Israel you are not a leftist.
i don’t know what you mean. please say it.
Antisemitism.
No Jews, no news.
Nobody questions Pakistan or India’s right to exist, even though they were created the same way as Israel was, and with significantly more bloodshed and loss of life – millions dead, in fact – and on the basis of religious faith. There’s hardly any Hindus left in Pakistan, but about 20% of Israel are Arabs including Druze, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, and nomadic Bedouins. They serve at every level of the country – from courts to the Knesset, enjoy the exact same set of civil rights as any other citizen of Israel including the right to vote, uniquely among any country in the Middle East.
The reason is that Israel is a Jewish state, and people hate Jews.
i do. lots of people do. but it’s convenient to ignore them and pretend to be a victim.
you’re wrong. i oppose nation states and i have particular issues with each of them. we’re discussing israel right now so you’re going to hear my specific problems with israel.
i mean fuck the media. corporate media can all die in a fire. i think there is some legitimacy to the argument that this conflict (and others in israel) recieve a disproportionate amount of coverage. that, of course, would lead to more discussions of the validity of their state. but i assure you my stance on the existence of any state starts with “states are tools of oppression”.