- cross-posted to:
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- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- hackernews@derp.foo
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From the article, it sounds like the company was just mis-managed.
Vertical farming is an extremely solarpunk idea that is impossible under capitalism - finding people with the experience to solve the issues and paying them enough to make it worth their expertise and also pay for marketing and create value for shareholders is impossible if your product is lettuce.
In a world where no one had to work, alternative growing methods are exactly the kind of projects that would attract bright minds.
What if your product is saffron or cannabis?
The principle is the same. You’re competing with traditional agricultural production, so the absolute value of the crop you’re producing matters less than the difference in profit margin compared to traditional methods.
Unlike silicone chip manufacturing or entertainment production which inherently require high levels of education and have barriers to entry, growing anything doesn’t require a PHd or a unique personal brand. Farm workers are extremely knowledgeable and don’t get enough credit for their craft. The issue is the product doesn’t magically command a higher price when made by a venture employing doctors of agriculture, engineers, and roboticists. The higher infrastructure and labor costs eat up ‘shareholder value.’
Except if done right I can guarantee a yield. Saffron takes two years to grow so it’s a huge risk to cultivate it. Cannabis is more or less indoor growing only, since crops are worthless if a single male plant pollenates it. There are lots of crops thay make sense in enclosed farms.
Vertical farming is a distinct concept from growing things in a greenhouse.
This instance is the home of !cannabiscultivation@slrpnk.net – if you are looking to contribute to the state of the art in bud production, you’ll probably find some supportive people here.
because vertical farming is a hoax. best u could do is practice hydroponic farming: save about 90% of water usage. Otherwise farm footprint is farm footprint (plants need sufficient sunlight). plant LEDs consume 200w/m² for lighting, solar panel produce 200w/m² of electricity from sunshine. Leds/solar panels aren’t efficient enough to allow vertical farming, its just (un)feasible under sunlight farming with extra steps
It’s not unfeasible its just never going to have the high profit margins these companies keep pitching to VC’s and banks. Farming is something that is done not because you make a huge profit from it but because you need food to survive.
Vertical farms fit in the niche for regions that have a significant population but have little water and large amount of arid land. They can allow for food to be grown closer to population centers and reduce the need for large water projects that are needed for irrigation farming. There is still going to be a need for irrigation farming for certain staple crops, but vertical farms can be used to grow certain fruiting vegetables and other leafy greens that would generally need a large amount of water in the same arid region.
Building a new food system is going to need vertical farms and other sustainable agriculture techniques, but it cannot be built on the same profit-for-profits sake economic system we currently have.
you need very cheap electricity to provide lighting for all those stacked plants. only ‘gov’ kind of money would allow such venture.
It was stupid for them to think that they could get the ridiculous profit margins that these firms where pitching them, but its not a stupid idea. As with any valid agricultural operation Gov is needed. USDA just allowed for crop insurance for vertical farming so there is hope for support on that front. I am working on developing a cheaper way to manufacture tower systems and for them to be recycled. I am born and raised in the American Southwest and we are already experiencing water shortages so I suspect local/state gov support is going to be put into place to subsidize power to vertical farming to make it more viable for farmers. We have lots of sun/wind out here but we don’t have lots of water.
with renewables, you could run your own desalination station: and yea, vertical farming is nice but very cheap electricity is required for it to be reliable (even at 50$ per Mwh of solar, VF is yet to be profitable.
electricity should cost a fraction of that for the former to be worthwhile) (electricity would be needed to desalinate water, control the climate within the farm, and provide lighting for crops). People should also give up crypto mining and spare the grid enough energy to dedicate for crop farming. Also bitcoin (in particular) is an ecological disaster.
I think you’re right to be skeptical, but I don’t think the entire concept is a hoax. Just its implementation under capitalism.
Solar isn’t the only source of power; wind is also a valuable source of energy that could be significantly scaled up. One of the drawbacks of these sources is their intermittency - in order to maintain grid load, they usually need some form of energy storage. Any time the energy is stored and released, there are losses, which increase the cost of the energy.
But vertical farming is a perfect application for intermittent power sources. Plants don’t need 100% sunlight all the time, they’re used to the sun being interrupted by cloud cover and night-time. Probably half of vertical farm energy usage is for keeping the lights on. A digital system that ensured that plants were getting enough light could coordinate with the management of the power grid so that when energy production was at its peak, it would add more load to the grid, and when it dipped, the lights would dim or go dark. With enough vertical farming infrastructure, you could stabilize an intermittent energy grid and reduce the need for expensive energy storage solutions.
Wind in particular can produce a lot of power, even at night. Plants could use this cheap energy to grow outside of the normal hours of the diurnal cycle and be able to thrive even if the lights go dim for a couple of days.
vertical farming is cool when electricity is very cheap, and only ‘government’ kind of money would allow such venture. as the article stated, it would be cool to implement in hot and arid countries like middle eastern ones: instead of importing perishables, they would grow their own crops and cut on fuel costs related to transport (although they dont lack any of the latter, but it would be cool for the climate i guess…) solar costs about 40€ (50$?) per Mwh (120$ for the stored Mwh) i would wager that vertical farming would require a 4€ per Mwh (fictious number. Edit: in fact, say you want to provide lighting for 1 stack, electricity should cost enough to break even with farming under regular sunlight, but when trying to provide light for 20 stack of plants, electricity needs to cost 1/20th as much, so about 2€ per Mwh lol; 60 stacks ? 0.6€ per Mwh…(stored solar energy would cost again 3x as much). again for-profit agriculture shouldn’t exist, and if it did, it shouldn’t be at the expense of the climate, and governments should provide the necessary economics for the thing to be profitable for business owners, to justify their effort. Also VC money is stupid and is never enough, especially with the ridiculous ROI expectations they require. personnally i wouldnt rely on VC filth to fund my project, and as proven above, such people are ignorant and aren’t worthy of owning money. Nonetheless, interesting take you have: if vertical farming would spare the grid the cost of batteries and help stabilize it, that would be very cool.
In addition to the obvious energy savings of growing food closer to its point of consumption (electricity is cheap to transport, potatoes are heavy) there are several other benefits that are non-intuitive and difficult to quantify.
By growing food in an artificial environment, you can exclude pests and thus save on toxic chemicals traditionally used to control their population. In addition to saving pesticide costs, this prevents poisons from entering the food chain.
In addition to saving on water, the closed irrigation cycle prevents field runoff. Fertilizer buildup in the lakes and rivers creates algae blooms which create anoxic dead zones that destroy aquatic ecosystems. In vertical farms, there is no need for overfertilization because all of it is delivered directly to the plants with no run-off, saving fertilizer and the local environment.
Assuming the technological kinks are worked out, vertical farming can have much more predictable yields than traditional farming. We overproduce food in the global north and though some of the surplus is sold overseas, much of it is wasted. Since food independence is a security issue, overproduction and maintaining latent agricultural potential makes pragmatic sense. But less ambiguity in the amount of crops lost to cold snaps, storms, locust outbreaks, and drought means less overproduction to account for those ambiguities. Less energy is used and less food goes to waste.
I don’t expect any of these benefits would be realized under capitalism, but I don’t want to burn a good idea because some grifters used it as the front of one of their schemes.
if i didn’t argue this you wouldn’t bother pointing any of this, but at least you did and i got to learn something in the process and it did change my mind about VF. i appreciate it.
Thanks. Experiencing conflicting perspectives is helpful in critically examining our own beliefs, even if we don’t ultimately change them. I appreciate you sharing your ideas, it did pull some good arguments out of me.
