Okinawa serves an important purpose for the Japanese state, which is that it’s the place where they shove all of the troops so that the average Japanese person can live their life without thinking too hard about how they’re still an occupied country with a puppet government.
Death to America
Meh, if it wasn’t for “America”, they’d speak Japanese all over Korea, parts of China and Indonesia, a base in Okinawa doesn’t sound too bad for an occupation following WW2.
I think you mean if it wasn’t for the Soviet Union and the people of the Korean and Chinese resistances
80% of the Japanese military was being slowly routed in China while America was hopping between islands and building genocide bombs. The American conflict with Japan is better understood as the inevitable clash of two empires expanding into the same place, rather than some kind of rescue of the Koreans, half of whom are still under American occupation.
An oil embargo, lend-lease over the Himalayas and the Pacific war culminating in Japan’s surrender helped China repel Japan a lot more than 20%, but sure “death to murica”.
but sure “death to murica”
Yes. Now you get it.
You seem to be under the impression that I think America deserves 20% credit for dislodging the Japanese Empire. I’m sorry for giving you this mistaken impression, because in truth America deserves 0% credit for doing it. America did not defeat the Japanese Empire and liberate the former imperial holdings, they simply captured it for themselves instead.
Also the effectiveness of lend-lease and other actions taken by America to weaken their imperial rival economically are greatly overstated.
Well, ok then, you can go back to “death to murica”, I’m sure it will help inform your worldview fantastically.
PS: for anyone else: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ichi-Go and https://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/31/opinions/china-wwii-forgotten-ally-rana-mitter/index.html
Ichi-Go was pretty futile tbh. It accomplished its strategic goals, but strong Communist control in the countryside led to a drawn out guerilla war that stretched Japanese supply lines to their limit.
Chaing Kai-shek was right in assessing that, by that point, the greatest threat to KMT rule was the Communists rather than the Japanese. That’s why so much of his forces were tied up with the Communists rather than against the Japanese.
Lend-lease over the Himalayas was rather futile and happened more of political reasons than for strategic value.
As for the embargo? It’s a byproduct of US war profiteering given that Japan imported something like 70% of their iron, 80% of their oil, and 90% of their copper from the US in 1939.
The Pacific War is a valid point insofar as it forced Japanese industrial capacity to focus on naval strength rather than land arms, but it’s a rather misguided one given that a huge chunk of Japanese forces was stuck in China locked in a stalemate, which made the Pacific Theater far less contested than it otherwise would have been (notably, this meant that Australia was safe from Japanese occupation because Japan lacked the resources to invade Australia).
In what fantasy land are you living in? By 1941, Japan was locked in a stalemate and slowly getting whittled down by the sheer number of bodies China could throw at the problem. In 1944, Japan’s Ichi-Go operation showcased the futility of Japanese offensives: despite Japanese strategic successes, China could fight an asymmetric guerilla war and stretch out supply lines even while the Nationalists and Communists were themselves stuck in an unsteady balance of power. By 1945, the USSR had an army large enough to rout any Japanese occupation in mainland Asia and technology that was simply superior to what was available to Japan.
Allied efforts to supply China over “The Hump” were costly and largely ineffective, delivering just 351 machine guns, 96 mountain cannon, 618 antitank rifles, 28 antitank guns, and 50 million rounds of rifle ammunition between May 1942 and September 1944 (Taylor 2009).
Did the US play a role in the Pacific Theater? Absolutely. Would the Japanese have won if the US hadn’t gotten involved? I doubt it.
yeah just double checking we had this oneJust so it’s not lost on everyone, A) Okinawa was a sovereign country that Japan occupied and annexed, B) the Supreme Court of Japan is using structural power over Okinawa to forcibly maintain and advance the interests of the USA, who nuked it twice, on the island of Okinawa, C) the USA is continuing to impose itself on the Pacific region through imperialism and it so dominates Japan that Japan’s highest court is oppressing its own colonial holdings in favor of the global hegemon.
Just so it’s not lost on everyone, I can make shit up too:
The ghost of Carl Marx had crazy orgies with Stalin and Hitler and under aged boys of indeterminate ethnic origin. These geopolitical parties, as they were known, though they have nothing to do with Okinawa, explain much of the problems with Russian-Anglo-Italo crypto leftist socialists and general inferiority therein.
This is why they are continually ignored by all facets of superior civilized democratic capitalist society. Just in case my agenda was missed, I shall write the words “invisible hands of the free market.”
A few points you missed.
Yes, the Rykuyu islands were a sovereign country… In the 16th century. It’s been run by Japan - save for a brief period between 1945 and 1978 - ever since. There’s a small and insignificant independence movement that pretty much everyone ignores. I remember them throwing bread rolls at our gate guards.
The US didn’t nuke Okinawa. I don’t think it was intentional, but your wording implied that it did.
Okinawans are split over the military issue. Some people want the US out. Others make tons of money off the Americans being there. It’s not a clear cut situation as you seem to imply.
The US is responsible for Japan’s defense ever since the end of WWII, just like it was for west Germany. Given that Japan didn’t make many friends during their little adventure across east Asia, having the world’s largest military protect them is a favorable arrangement for them.
It’s been several generations since WWII. Japan is one of the US’ closest allies. If they wanted to transform their self-defense force into a full-blown military and take over responsibility for their own defense, I’m sure they could do so. So far, no one has generated the political will to do that. Your buddy Kim isn’t helping things by sending missiles over Japan.
And lastly, WWII wasn’t a war of conquest for the US. Blame the US for interfering in Korea and Vietnam and the middle east all you like, but Japan was a different story. Calling the US’ actions in Japan “Imperialism” destroys any credibility you may have otherwise had.
And lastly, WWII wasn’t a war of conquest for the US… Calling the US’ actions in Japan “Imperialism” destroys any credibility you may have otherwise had.
The U.S. declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor was not imperialism. But after the war, when the U.S. turned Japan into a vassal state and kept a ton of military bases throughout the Pacific (to supplement those from its initial phase of empire building), that is imperialism.
The U.S. declaring war on Japan after Pearl Harbor was not imperialism
Disagree, they shouldn’t have even been in Hawaii
Japan certainly wasn’t trying to liberate Hawaii. This is not a good take.
I never said they were trying to liberate Hawaii mate?
It was obviously two imperial powers having an imperial conflict - but it’s interesting how unexamined the attack on pearl harbour justifying US entry to WW2 among Americans is, given Hawaii is a relatively small island 4,000km from the US mainland and had only been annexed a handful of decades prior (and wouldn’t become a state for another ~20 years).
So, pray tell, what would you have done in the US’ position?
Lol are you suggesting the U.S. had no choice but to build an empire? That in the wake of WWII, the only industrialized country untouched by the war, and the only country with nukes, was somehow forced to maintain a permanent military presence all over the world? No one was forcing the U.S. to do shit; we chose our path.
If I were Truman on V-J Day, I would have at minimum dismantled the incipient military-industrial complex and the associated national security state. This would not have been a novel idea; countries regularly demobilize after wars. I would have tried to work with the USSR rather than oppose it at every turn (a policy U.S. leaders decided on before the war had even finished). I would have honored the wartime agreements among Allies (e.g., the Atlantic Charter) regarding peoples’ right to self-determination instead of backing imperialists’ efforts to re-establish control of their colonies. I would have taken de-Nazification and its corresponding programs in other occupied countries seriously. I would have set the precedent of the U.S. obeying international law even when it ran against national interests, and would have at least tried to make international law enforceable.
You apparently do not understand the role of a government.
A government is responsible for itself and its people. It is not responsible for the well being of the world at large. It’s not there to be nice. If it has principles (the US does), it is up to the citizens of that country to hold their government accountable to those principles.
US citizens generally approved of their government’s actions after the war, so in that sense the government was acting properly.
I cannot emphasize this enough. The US government is not responsible for the rest of the world. How everyone else feels about what the US does only matters insofar as how it affects US interests. It was that way then, and it’s that way now, and it’s like that for every modern country on the planet.
The US does not need to (or want to) be subject to international law when it can act with near impunity. Law only works when it can be enforced. No other country is powerful enough to hold the US to account, so it would be against the US’ interests to submit itself to it.
Don’t like it? Tough. That’s the way the real world is. One day the US will fall, but until that happens it will continue to consider its own interests above everyone else.
Call it imperialism, call it what you like - but it could be so, so much worse. Just ask Japan - the US could have annexed the entire country and enslaved everyone. Instead, they denazified it and helped them rebuild. Oh, what horrible villains!
(edit: autocorrect keeps “correcting” the possessive form of “it.”)
Instead, they denazified it
Hirohito remained emperor until his death and the imperial reign continues. Many war criminals were put into positions of power after the war. A couple examples include Yasuhiro Nakasone, the prime minister of Japan from 1982-87, who was directly involved in creating the “comfort women” system of sexual slavery during the war, and Nobusuke Kishi, the prime minister of Japan from 1957-1960. Here’s a couple choice paragraphs from his Wikipedia page:
Known for his exploitative rule of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo in Northeast China in the 1930s, Kishi was nicknamed the “Monster of the Shōwa era” (昭和の妖怪; Shōwa no yōkai).[1] Kishi later served in the wartime cabinet of Prime Minister Hideki Tōjō as Minister of Commerce and Vice Minister of Munitions,[2] and co-signed the declaration of war against the United States on December 7, 1941.
After World War II, Kishi was imprisoned for three years as a suspected Class A war criminal. However, the U.S. government did not charge, try, or convict him, and eventually released him as they considered Kishi to be the best man to lead a post-war Japan in a pro-American direction. With U.S. support, he went on to consolidate the Japanese conservative camp against perceived threats from the Japan Socialist Party in the 1950s. Kishi was instrumental in the formation of the powerful Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) through a merger of smaller conservative parties in 1955, and thus is credited with being a key player in the initiation of the “1955 System”, the extended period during which the LDP was the overwhelmingly dominant political party in Japan.
Japan continues to be a far-right haven to this day. Shinzo Abe, the recently assassinated former prime minister, was a direct descendant of Kishi and denied many of the crimes against humanity Japan committed during the war. He posed in a plane with the same numbers as the infamous Unit 731, a torture camp located in occupied China that was once under the control of his great-grandfather.
This only begins to scratch the surface of the far-right in Japan directly enabled by the United States. I hope you can see what a foolish statement you have made here.
A government is responsible for itself and it’s people. It is not responsible for the well being of the world at large.
You’re missing all the treaties the U.S. has ratified that do impose obligations to the rest of the world on it. But even if you ignore all of that, a state that has no qualms about mass murder outside of its borders is a dangerous, violent state that should be destroyed.
This is also a silly response to “what would you have done?”. It’s not about what states historically have done, it’s about what the U.S. could have done that would have made it worth supporting. In the immediate aftermath of WWII the U.S. had military, political, economic, and social influence unparalleled before or since. It could have actually remade the world order, or at least tried, but it instead chose to continue imperialism with itself in the driver’s seat. It was in no way forced to do this, and its decision is worth criticism.
US citizens generally approved of their government’s actions after the war
U.S. citizens generally approved of the genocide of indigenous Americans, too. Just like democracy does not extend to voting to kill someone, it does not extend to committing genocide (which the U.S. supported and directly aided throughout the Cold War) and other war crimes, no matter how popular they are.
Just ask Japan - the US could have annexed the entire country and enslaved everyone.
“I could have killed my wife, but I just broke her arm! She should be thankful.”
pray tell,
Why do you all talk like this
It’s a common idiom that indicates skeptical disagreement.
Common among redditors, maybe
I’ve been using it since before reddit existed. You’d almost think that people from different areas talk differently.
So, pray tell, what would you have done in the US’ position?
This is an incredibly useless question. Any socialist would tell you “let Japan’s former territories decide what to do” barring the mainland, which would require occupation for a period to purge the fascists (something the US deliberately neglected to do). There would subsequently be one China, one Korea, and I don’t know whether Japan’s referendums would result in independence for Okinawa or Hokkaido (I doubt it, but idk), but either way the main body would not be one that pays annual tribute to some of the most heinous war criminals in history.
Okinawans are split over the military issue. Some people want the US out. Others make tons of money off the Americans being there. It’s not a clear cut situation as you seem to imply.
“Sure, it has popular opposition, but the capitalists like it, making it a divisive issue”
And lastly, WWII wasn’t a war of conquest for the US. Blame the US for interfering in Korea and Vietnam and the middle east all you like, but Japan was a different story. Calling the US’ actions in Japan “Imperialism” destroys any credibility you may have otherwise had.
Imperialism is not the same thing as conquest, and US handling of the aftermath of WWII featured cartoonish levels of imperialism, though the starkest example is probably Korea.
I remember them throwing bread rolls at our gate guards.
That must have been a horrible experience for you.
Thank you for your service.
Free Ryukyu! Revolution of our time!
Calling the US’ actions in Japan “Imperialism” destroys any credibility you may have otherwise had.
Uh, they literally made them a protectorate by denying them the ability to field a military. Then when Japan was outcompeting them economically the USA economically undermined them pretty openly and Japan couldn’t do anything about it.
Japan is an imperial junior partner to the USA. They are a protectorate and vassal.
They literally made them a protectorate after fighting a bloody four year war that Japan started. Then denied them the right to field a military so that they wouldn’t start their shit up again.
What was the US supposed to do after Pearl Harbor? Shrug it off?
I find your claims of Japan being undermined by the US to be dubious at best. Japan has done very well since WWII. The US gave them their largest market (when many other Asian imports were blocked) and remains their second highest trading partner after China. They have the third largest economy in the world. That’s not exactly a “vassal.”
Looks, I get it, “US bad” no matter what. But out of all the examples of shitty things the US has done, picking Japan is just silly.
LOL
What was the US supposed to do after Pearl Harbor?
You mean the attack the USA deliberately provoked by moving its naval assets to encircle and blockade Japan with the express goal of provoking an attack to create the necessary pretext to go to war? That Pearl Harbor?
How many other nations do you know of that were defeated in war that were prevented from having a standing military for nearly a century and instead was occupyied by the victor’s military forces and the Supreme Court of that country ruling in favor of the military interests of the dominator?
Your lack of imagination and historical awareness is not an argument for why the USA isn’t engaged in imperialism.
That’s not exactly a “vassal.”
https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2019/09/11/washingtons-old-japan-problem-and-the-current-china-threat/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1989/05/containing-japan/376337/
https://www.nber.org/system/files/chapters/c8717/c8717.pdf
In the 1980s, Japan was the big bad. Its economy was booming — the second largest in the world — and many in the United States feared they were about to be overtaken.
Articles were published warning of the “Japanning of America” or an “economic Pearl Harbor,” as Japanese businesses bought US companies and landmarks. Lawmakers and commentators warned of a growing trade deficit between the two countries, and complained of Japanese firms stealing US intellectual property and taking advantage of unfair trade deals.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/business/us-china-trade-war-japan-intl/index.html
Again, your ignorance is not a point of view that commands respect. Japan did everything it could to work within the US rules and in doing so began to actually compete with the US economically. So the US used its outsized power to launch a trade war against Japan and ultimately forced its hand into signing lopsided trade deals, because Japan is a vassal and must comply with the will of the hegemony of the North Atlantic as expressed through the USA.
We don’t need to only critique the USA for atrocities. It’s important to see the world for how it works. Japan’s occupation of Okinawa is still terrible and this action to put a US military base is a good example as to why. If Okinawa was fully assimilated into Japan, it wouldn’t be the dumping ground for USA military bases enforced by the Japanese Supreme Court. Likewise despite people thinking Hawaii is an assimilated part of the USA, it wouldn’t be the tragedy that it is.
The largest minority group in Japan are the Ryukyuan people of Okinawa and Japan won’t even recognize them. Japan is a junior imperialist partner of the Western imperial block executing to advance the interests of the USA and, by proxy, the North Atlantic bourgeoisie.
The idea that this should be above reproach because it’s not the worst thing the USA did is ridiculous. The idea that Japan deserved it is just bog standard liberal bloodthirst.
You mean the attack the USA deliberately provoked by moving its naval assets to encircle and blockade Japan with the express goal of provoking an attack to create the necessary pretext to go to war? That Pearl Harbor?
Funny how almost all our battleships were in Hawaii, then. Not much of a blockade. Perhaps you mean that we stopped trading with them and they declared it an “act of war?”
In any event, the US didn’t need an excuse to join the war. Germany was giving us plenty already.
How many other nations do you know of that were defeated in war that were prevented from having a standing military for nearly a century and instead was occupyied by the victor’s military forces and the Supreme Court of that country ruling in favor of the military interests of the dominator?
Germany wasn’t allowed a standing military, either. They managed to convince the allies that they could contribute to NATO, and were allowed to do so again.
Japan is forbidden to have a military by their own constitution. Certain parties have tried to have it amended to allow a more active military (the SDF is almost purely self-defense), but so far the political will hasn’t been there for it.
The “ruling in the interests of the dominator” bit is your words. I wonder if the Supreme Court of Japan would agree with your description of their decision. I somehow doubt it.
links I’m not going to read
Yeah, the trade balance with Japan was heavily skewed on Japan’s side. The US and Japan worked out a rebalance of the system. What, exactly, is so evil about that?
We don’t need to only critique the USA for atrocities. It’s important to see the world for how it works. Japan’s occupation of Okinawa is still terrible and this action to put a US military base is a good example as to why. If Okinawa was fully assimilated into Japan, it wouldn’t be the dumping ground for USA military bases enforced by the Japanese Supreme Court. Likewise despite people thinking Hawaii is an assimilated part of the USA, it wouldn’t be the tragedy that it is.
Tell me you’ve never been to Okinawa without telling me you’ve never been to Okinawa. It’s not some hick island full of yokels. It’s a modern, fully-integrated Japanese prefecture. A bit more laid back than the mainland, but that’s to be expected.
The bases there were built before the US decided to return Okinawa to Japan. The US has been slowly decommissioning bases and returning them to Japanese control ever since.
Did you even check what the supreme court was ruling? They’re not building a new base. They’re relocating MCAS Futenma, because it’s smack dab in the middle of a city and can’t do night operations without waking everyone up and filling the air with jet fuel fumes.
What is it with you tankies and Hawaii, anyway? Have you spent any real time there? I have. Saying it’s not fully part of the United States is bizarre. It’s a state. The only way it could become more a part of the United States is if you somehow towed the islands to California.
The largest minority group in Japan are the Ryukyuan people of Okinawa and Japan won’t even recognize them. Japan is a junior imperialist partner of the Western imperial block executing to advance the interests of the USA and, by proxy, the North Atlantic bourgeoisie.
They’re Japanese citizens, with all the rights and responsibilities of every other Japanese citizen. You want to talk about disenfranchisement, talk about the Ainu. I’m sure you’ll figure out some way to blame that on the US too.
“North Atlantic bourgeoisie” - that just cracks me up.
The idea that this should be above reproach because it’s not the worst thing the USA did is ridiculous. The idea that Japan deserved it is just bog standard liberal bloodthirst.
I never claimed anything was above reproach. I said it wasn’t a good example of imperialism and that you should choose another example if you want to criticize the US.
Now tell me some unrelated nonsense (maybe bring up Hawaii again?) and that you’re “not going to post anymore” because it’s useless to talk to me (which it is - you’re very clearly in the wrong on this one), so we can get this behind us.
They’re Japanese citizens, with all the rights and responsibilities of every other Japanese citizen. You want to talk about disenfranchisement, talk about the Ainu. I’m sure you’ll figure out some way to blame that on the US too.
As if most Japanese people in general aren’t politically disenfranchised with their one party political system and of course that one party has been a puppet of
since the end of the war, also includes a bunch of the very same fascists you keep using as justification for US imperialismIf the Japanese fascists are the reason US imperialism is justified in Japan than why did
let all of those fascists go with out punishment? Why hire them to continue the same work they were doing?A tankie saying a one party system is bad? The irony is strong with this one.
In any event, the US didn’t need an excuse to join the war. Germany was giving us plenty already.
Pure historical revisionism. Isolationism was a strong force in the US and it’s not like popular sentiment was opposed to fascism. The attack was extremely convenient for “forcing” the US to participate without the isolationists being able to complain about getting “needlessly entangled in foreign affairs”.
Not that I think the US did wrong by fighting Japan. I don’t know very much about the state of the US military at the time but really my biggest qualm in terms of the start of the war is that they didn’t start fighting the Nazis sooner.
It’s been several generations since WWII. Japan is one of the US’ closest allies. If they wanted to transform their self-defense force into a full-blown military and take over responsibility for their own defense, I’m sure they could do so. So far, no one has generated the political will to do that. Your buddy Kim isn’t helping things by sending missiles over Japan.
This part is ironic. The tankies will often argue that Japan shouldn’t be expanding their military (and anything their military does they think is wrong), but also that the US shouldn’t be involved. You don’t get both. You can’t just say a nation should have no way to defend itself, especially when you are defending Russia and China.
As a “tankie”, if I had to choose one or the other between “Japan grows military” vs “US stays occupying Japan,” the answer is absolutely the first one being preferable. However, as any of those dang tankies will point out, the two are not mutually exclusive. Japan can develop its own military while the US maintains its occupation, just look at the miserable state of South Korea.
