This it the bottom so far you mean.
Next bottom is whether the infants are conspirators or not.
Even better, infant body armor
How did you get hold of Hamas training materiel?
Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don’t know like.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
as usual with this shit show of a conflict, it seems both sides are awful: hamas used the hospital as a command post which means israel has to be able to attack it, however attacking it with indiscriminate shelling is absolutely unacceptable
both entities are completely unacceptable… debating which one is more so is outrageous, and if anyone “sides” with either one they’re morally corrupt, brainwashed, or too stupid to comprehend anything but binaries
The thingis that often siding with the people in Gaza who are living in hell rightnow is intentionally misunderstood as siding with Hamas.
oh 100%!
and there are so many disingenuous arguments going around like “they voted for hamas! fuck around and find out!”… well, if you think that then you don’t get to complain about american politics (as most people do): https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/
they voted for hamas…
The fact that a lot of people ignore that the Palestinians fought a civil war precisely to not have Hamas in power and lost Gaza to a Hamas takeover after the last election (2006) tells you that the zionist propaganda engines are well oiled and working.
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Using a hospital as a hostage and bombing a hospital are two acts so beyond the pale that it’s pointless to argue which is worse. Both are incredibly fucked up.
Are we still talking about the hospital all the video footage is from? The video footage of a hospital thats in one piece and not shelled? Are you talking about the one missile that hit a carpark and was probably a misfire from Palestine?
those mossad lads are clever propagandists
I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you’re thinking of. That’s like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.
I honestly wonder what the fuck every israeli intel agency was doing, it as the anniversary of the Yom Kippur war, how did they not see SOMETHING coming is beyond my ability to comprehend
Evil tongues suggest they might have been looking away.
I also find it weird how Israel claims since 5 weeks theyd be shelling thousands of terrorist targets, having intricate knowledge of where these are. But apparently Israel didnt notice anything unusual happening there that would indicate an imminent attack…
I remember the discussions in the months prior to Russia invading Ukraine, where activities were noticed to prepare the attack and question was, if Russia is going to or not.
How the fuck are invasion preparations on known sites in a tiny and well surveilled totally surrounded are not noted?
Judging from the comments, we can go lower.
Someone just called this post “pearl clutching” in this very thread. We’re fucked.
It’s almost like a bunch of people in the last month discovered “war” for the first time and are appalled to learn exactly what that entails.
Just wait until they find out about the Iraqi war. 1 million dead civilians. We technically committed genocide based on a lie.
No one from that administration has been held accountable despite us now knowing that they knew it was a lie at the time (WMDs). If there was any justice Dick Cheney would have been hung long ago.
Dang dude, I guess everyone upset over the October 7th Hamas attacks are “pearl clutching” because Israelis died. “It’s just war, bro”
“Truly this is the bottom”
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: “Challenge accepted”
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
And fun fact: bombing/attacking a hospital is not a war crime per the Geneva Conventions Article 52, if it is being used as a military objective.
Might be a fun fact but it is not correct. Article 52 of the fourth convention is not related to hospitals. Article 52 of the 1st additional protocol is related to hospitals and it does not mean what you are saying it does. Geneva conventions do not define war crimes, that definition is given in the ICC Rome statutes.
Fair enough. The ICC Rome Statute specifically refers to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. But per the ICC Rome statute on war crimes, Article 8, Section 2, Subsection (b), Clause (ix), the following is a war crime: “Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected,provided they are not military objectives;”
Just stating that they are a military objective (as IDF does) does not make it so.
What about finding tunnels, weapons, bombs and having terrorists hiding and firing from within the hospital compoind? Is that enough or does Hamas need to put up a sign reading “military objective” at the entrance?
I mean they DID find like 9 guns and a calendar we were told was a hostage watching schedule… so yea totally needs to be nuked just to be sure. /s
Still the collateral damage needs to be proportional and adequate measures need to be taken to minimise civillian casualties.
So at least they would need to be able to evacuate. But Israel intentionally destroyed ambulances, cut water, electricity, fuel and communications, so it is impossible to evacuate the hospital. Israel did everything to make sure the civillian casualties will be high and that is nothing but a war crime and heinous murder.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-gives-hospitals-gaza-hours-evacuate
According to the Hamas propaganda Israel literally gave a one month head start on that demand when they did not control the area around the hospital.
“Israeli occupation asked the administrations of two hospitals, al-Awda and al-Quds in the north and centre of Gaza, to evacuate staff, sick people, and displaced people”.
We are talking about al-Shifa now. Your source does not support your claim.
I mean, that makes a certain degree of sense, because if using protected places as a place to put one’s military operations doesn’t remove that protection, then it would become a common strategy to intentionally use vulnerable civilians as shields in that manner, and since no military is realistically going to just let their opponent attack them without a response when capable of delivering one, such a scenario would just lead to the whole idea of places like hospitals being protected being abandoned.
That’s exactly what Hamas does. No better than Al-Qaida.
Oh ok phew. I didn’t know it wasn’t a war crime per the Geneva convention article 52. Keep bombing those infants, baby! Woohoo!
So glad Israel is the good guy here!
We will have to see. Both sides have all the incentive to lie.
Both populations Palestine and Israel hate their leadership and want them gone.
Israelis regularly voted Netanyahu and that even last year despite him being head over heels in dozens of currpotion scandals.
There were five hung elections in a row where he couldn’t form a majority before he was able to form this government. Israel has only ever had one majority government (that is, not a coalition of parties) from 1968-1969, well before Likud was even established and while Bibi was still serving in the military. Likud has literally never held a majority in the Knesset. How can you so ardently state that Israelis “voted Netanyahu”, especially when they’re a multiparty Westminster parliamentary representative democracy whose parliamentary leaders elect the Prime Minister? Come on, mate.
Are you implying that Israel is not a democracy and the government is not democratically legitimised?
The coalition government is formed by a majority coalition. And people know that, so in their vote they consider the possible coalitions. Also Netanyahus coalition partners are by all acounts even worse criminals, demanding genocide in Gaza, nuking Gaza, forcefully displacing allPalestinians in the Westbank etc.
There is a majority in Israel that voted the current government and by all means they knew beforehand what they would get.
I’m suggesting that saying that the fact that Netanyahu is the Prime Minister is in any way indicative that a majority of Israelis personally support him as a leader is a laughable concept. He’s not elected by popular vote; he wins his own electorate and then a majority of other people who won their electorates voted him into the job.
His party, Likud, has never held an absolute majority. Therefore, never has 50% or more of the electorate directly voted for Netanyahu or the party he represents.
After the shit-shamble of the last five elections, Israeli voters have had less idea of what coalition would form government than they ever had. Suggesting that a majority of Israelis personally endorse Netanyahu is not reasonable.
A Nov. 3 poll found 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign. On Nov. 7, a leading pro-Netanyahu newspaper reversed its stance and ran an editorial calling for his ouster after the war. Polls taken last month show Netanyahu would lose if elections were held now.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
Both are trash but one has been killing for decades…
Ehm, both have been killing for decades. Palestine consistently had about 10x the losses Israel had.
israel
Still not a good reason to kill babies…
I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don’t care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can’t trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
I mean what’s worse: using a human shield, or deciding “nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway.”
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.
There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.
The whole thing is out of control
There was a ceasefire, then Hamas attacked. Hard to rebuild trust after that.
That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents
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I dont understand your comment. What do you mean “if only they were at level hand?”
Well said. The only angels here are the innocents being slaughtered. The belligerents are all devils.
Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.
If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.
True, but it doesn’t require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there’s no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that’s pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it’s easy! Wish we’d thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm’s way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
And the IDF will bomb as many civilians as they need to to remove them from power!
Every government should be removed from power
The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.
Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
It’s messy
Indeed it is messy. But “removing” Hamas from power is about as easy as “removing” Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn’t as easily fixed as “just take Hamas… and put it over there”.
Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.
Never said it was.
I have no stakes in the game. Just an opinion
That’s why you don’t pick sides
For sure. It’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we’ll know at some point
False dilemma. There are ways to react that don’t involve shooting children.
Even if there weren’t, I wouldn’t say “yeah shoot some children.”
You’re misrepresenting my position. It’s, “yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can.”
My dude, you’re arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what else to say.
As are you? If they don’t take out the military targets, kids die. It’s essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.
Nope. Preemptive killing is not justifiable. No children are saved by the killing of these children.
In fact all that is being done is assuring the next generation of terrorists.
That isn’t an option atm so just a pointless strawman being propped up.
… They literally filmed themselves sticking a baby in an oven, raped the child’s mother in front of the oven, then shot her after her child died. They have to be eliminated, even while Hamas commits more war crimes.
Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.
Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.
Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.
So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.
For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.
There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”
Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.
Well, didn’t take long at all to find a new low.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don’t have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.
the children are not Hamas’s kids.
The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., “theirs.”
two wrongs don’t make a right
War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don’t meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas’ mass slaughter, it’s just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.
If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Israel’s intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there’s significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It’s the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.
I don’t want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn’t matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.
Kill a child or watch the person behind the child kill your child. Ftfy
No you killed a child period. This has nothing to do with your child dying. Killing a child dosen’t stop your own child from being killled.
But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.
So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.
Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids 😆
How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.
question was:
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?
and your reply was
yes
albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the “no” answer
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
what exactly am i putting in your mouth?
I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.
Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yes
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you’re willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you’ve proven the tactic so effective.
What kind of question is that?
A moral dilemma.
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
If you answered no to that I’d say you’re honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.
the question wasn’t about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
Do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren’t a concern
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story? This isn’t a good vs evil fight.
“Good guys” are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You’re not going to like the answer…
This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
Same as it ever was
So, that justifies killing civilians?
no, that justifies invading a hospital
Tbf you’d have to invade the hospital to clear out the Hamas fighters using it as a base, especially if they were forcing it on the hospital staff
That or lay siege to it but uh… that’d be about as effective as issuing another round of sanctions on Iran at this point.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
you think it through. what is the alternative?
You edited your previous comment. That’s just bad form
are you seeing things again?
Prove that you didn’t edit your comment
What do you expect them to do? Stand by as they are attacked?
The problem is military are hiding in hospitals.
To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
“We cannot guarantee children will not die so any suggestion we take actions to avoid it as much as possible are entirely unrealistic.”
Hamas is operating out of those hospitals.
So you’re saying “victory isn’t worth innocent lives”, which means Israel just needs to passively sit back as Hamas kills Innocents until Hamas is victorious?
How does that make sense, unless you’ve been mindlessly consuming propaganda.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they’re much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide inside your house?
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
ok but if they’re hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that’s what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don’t know, it’s a hard question.
To people saying it’s justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn’t, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That’s how you know this isn’t about Hamas.
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That’s kind of like saying “If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn’t it just take Kyiv?” Because it can’t. There’s a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
That’s because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
Has there even been any evidence of that?
I mean independently verified. The idf has a history of lying and some of the stuff mentioned in that article has already been disproven.
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children…
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I’m absolutely fine with them killing each other. I’m not okay with the fact that they’re both using innocent civilians as pawns.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
Don’t forget the hasbara bots upvoting him!
Huh?
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Informal fallacies are best fallacies.
Please for the love of God let this be the bottom
That’s exactly why this isn’t the bottom
Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
Have they tried not genociding?
Have you tried not justifying murdering babies and sick, defenseless people?
I can’t tell which side you’re criticizing here.
Have you tried a wording that doesn’t fucking indict both sides?
Nice how you assume I meant one side when both Hamas and lil’ bibi are hell bent upon genocide. Perhaps your assumptions of which subject I meant is telling?
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I’m not sure what to think anymore…
although this is dystopian… it’s not boring
It’s like everyone’s opinion is “my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering”. No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
Depends how you invade. If there’s nothing there to shoot at then there’ll be no shooting.
Twitter is full of professional pearl clutchers
