Evidence gleaned since Oct. 7 shows Hamas terrorists prepared for a “second phase” of assaults amid hopes of inspiring violence in the West Bank and beyond.

“Hamas’s broader plan [was] one that analysts say was intended not just to kill and capture Israelis, but to spark a conflagration that would sweep the region and lead to a wider conflict.”

  • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
    175·
    1 year ago

    LOL Hamas didn’t change the discussion, Israel did. I came into the news on Oct 07 with “Fucking Hamas” vibes, but that very quickly changed to, “Wow OK, Israel isn’t fucking around.” then “Woah Israel OK, maybe use a little more care there, I get that you were attacked but – WOAH ISRAEL WTF ARE YOU DOING?”

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-was-hamas-thinking

    As recently as 2020, Hamas committed to participate in Palestinian national elections; this plan fell apart not because of Hamas but because of the Western-backed Palestinian Authority, whose leaders denounced Israel’s refusal to allow elections in East Jerusalem.

    Had these apparent gestures of compromise all been part of a ruse to buy time while Hamas prepared a brutal assault? Abu Marzouk insisted that these efforts at negotiation and coexistence had been genuine. He blamed Israel and the Western powers for thwarting Hamas’s overtures. He told us, “We rolled down all of the pathways to get some of our rights—not all of them. We knocked on the door of reconciliation and we weren’t allowed in. We knocked on the door of elections and we were deprived of them. We knocked on the door of a political document for the whole world—we said, ‘We want peace, but give us some of our rights’—but they didn’t let us in.” He added, “We tried every path. We didn’t find one political path to take us out of this morass and free us from occupation.”

    There is some evidence to support Abu Marzouk’s narrative. In recent years, Hamas had appeared willing to coexist with the Jewish state. But, as Abu Marzouk acknowledged to us, Hamas also never abandoned core demands such as full Palestinian independence and the right of all Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. Nor did the group relinquish its weapons. “But we didn’t mislead anyone,” he told us. “We never hid these slogans.”

    • dumdum666@kbin.social
      1615·
      1 year ago

      Never read such bullshit before - those whiny ass Hamas bitches justifying butchering all those civilians.

      • TokenBoomer@lemmy.worldEnglish
        913·
        1 year ago

        If you were Hamas, what would you have done differently to obtain rights and privileges for the Palestinian people?

        • thrawn@lemmy.worldEnglish
          125·
          1 year ago

          Lemmy is the only place where I see people being like “butchering civilians is okay as long as it was done to further their goal”. It’s real weird to see that kind of rhetoric not only accepted but upvoted.

          I’m sure if I hung out on the extremist right sites, there would be that kind of stuff about Israel. That’s kind of the thing though, it’s really starting to feel like Lemmy is an extremist place and I could see it petering out because of that.

          I feel like part of a shrinking minority that’s not cool with mass killing civilians no matter what. I’m a strong supporter for an independent Palestine but I don’t see how killing civilians is leading to that. To me it seems like that only gave Israel the opportunity to unleash massive violence of their own, and they’re clearly far better at it.

          I know a lot of you don’t see violence or violent rhetoric as taboo, and I guess I’m not really trying to get you to stop saying it. It’s just kind of sad to see, and I do think it’ll turn Lemmy into one of those sites regular people avoid because it’s too extreme. I don’t even know why I typed this comment, perhaps I don’t like the way Lemmy is sliding and felt the need to comment on it while it’s still in that early stage Voat feel.

          • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
            65·
            1 year ago

            Lemmy is the only place where I see people being like “butchering civilians is okay as long as it was done to further their goal”. It’s real weird to see that kind of rhetoric not only accepted but upvoted.

            Understanding why Hamas might feel they are justified isn’t the same as thinking it’s OK.

            • thrawn@lemmy.worldEnglish
              72·
              1 year ago

              The comment I responded to was basically “what else could they have done?” To most people that’s condoning.

              And the logic of “they feel it’s justified” could be extended to Israel as well. It’s clear that a lot of people think that Hamas butchering civilians means Israel can too. Doesn’t make it right either.

              And well, why don’t you condemn just as strongly Hamas’s killings, or understand why Israel might feel they’re justified? That’s kind of what I mean— there’s these little slants, as if to say “at least they’re not the other side”.

              Call me sensitive or whatever but I don’t like the violent undertones I get here (not your comment, Lemmy in general). Repeating Hamas’s justifications for slaughter is no better than repeating Israel’s, and imo drags down the general quality of any discussion

              • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
                42·
                1 year ago

                Fair enough but I’ll keep my reply short for now -

                We all know agree that Hamas are terrorists. Of course I condemn the attack, but I don’t expect terrorists to behave in a way I’m happy with.

                But Israel holds far more power and has more options. They are the vastly superior entity by every metric. They are also a member of the United Nations, and can reasonably be expected to conduct themselves better than acknowledged terrorist groups. Israel had a great justification to respond to the attack. They don’t have a justification for going as far as they are.

                Quoting myself from earlier -

                Hamas didn’t change the discussion, Israel did. I came into the news on Oct 07 with “Fucking Hamas” vibes, but that very quickly changed to, “Wow OK, Israel isn’t fucking around.” then “Woah Israel OK, maybe use a little more care there, I get that you were attacked but – WOAH ISRAEL WTF ARE YOU DOING?”

                • Whimsical@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  3·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah, that about hits my opinion, too.

                  “Israel has the right to defend itself”, but their actions fly far in excess of defense at this point.

          • electric_nan@lemmy.mlEnglish
            12·
            1 year ago

            I think a lot of people don’t think it’s good or OK, but more like: “what did Israel fucking expect?”. It is what it is. It seems hypocritical to act so offended when Hamas kills a thousand Israelis, when my country happily pays Israel to kill multiples of that number of Palestinians.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.worldEnglish
            36·
            1 year ago

            I think it’s what you are seeing. Most people on Lemmy.world don’t post or comment with regularity. The ones that are more vocal tend to be more extreme. From my observations, the extreme rhetoric is the minority. To contrast, go to r/worldnews on Reddit. This place is tame in comparison.