I saw a post earlier (not on the fediverse), about a trans woman who had a date with a cis man who was pretty clearly into her, fliriting and stuff, but then as soon as she told him she was trans the guy immediately acted different, said he wasn’t into her and just wanted to be friends, etc. The poster was obviously upset by that and was trying to vent about it online in a women’s community who claim to be trans inclusive, but so many of the replies were about how he wasn’t transphobic, how he was such a good guy for giving her the bare minimum respect after learning she was trans, how its not transphobic to not be attracted to trans people, etc. That’s also not even what the poster was saying, she just wanted support after a shitty date, something which the community is perfectly capable of doing when a cis woman is seeking it.
But also like the guy was attracted to her! He just immediately changed his mind upon learning she was trans, which is literally just transphobia, holy shit. And almost all the supportive people in the comments or anyone saying that were getting piled on.
I already know the majority of cis people don’t see us as actually being our gender/sex, but it still fucking sucks everytime I see something like that that reminds me of that fact so starkly.
Plenty of times people are attracted to fully dressed folks and finding out what is underneath they are not anymore. Attraction isn’t a choice - I feel like it’s weird having to explain that to someone in the lgbtq community.
Yeah agreed. That’s not the situation here though since none of us, me included, know what the woman in this post looks like, whether she’s had bottom surgery, etc. And neither did her date since all she said was “I’m trans.”
its always a blessing when the trash takes itself out.
I hope this doesn’t come off as argumentative, as that is not how it’s meant, but the way I see it, it wasn’t that he didn’t like her, or was transphobic, it’s just that he has preferences. This isn’t a crime. We all have preferences. Be they height, weight, cultural, tradition, what-have-you… this doesn’t make us anti-things outside of our prefered choices.
For example: I like pumpkins. Love them as decorations, I think they’re pretty, I know they’re heathy as a food and good for nature, however… I don’t like to eat them at all. I don’t like the texture of pumpkin pie, I don’t like the flavor at all. It’s just not to my taste.
Am I anti-pumpkin? Not even in the slightest.
The point is, from what you said, he was kind to her, and wasn’t offended or being offensive TO her, he just wasn’t into her situation at all.
Maybe this helps to understand it better?
Again, absolutely no offense intended.
In certain contexts, preferences can be bigoted. Some preferences are just preferences, some are bigotry.
Compare it to race. People can like what they like. It’s not bigoted to have a racial dating preferences. But imagine if a white person refused to date another person that was visually white after discovering they have a single black great-grandparent. Visually the person looks white, they’ve lived their whole life as a white person, but the bigot views them as tainted for not being pure white. That’s both a preference and bigotry. The bigotry is the source of their preference. An honest sexual preference can be bigoted.
For example, it’s fine if certain physical features that a trans person has aren’t your thing. That could be anything from face to body to genitals. But some cis people refuse to date trans people not out of any specific feature or objective reason, but simply BECAUSE the person is trans. They view transness as a stain upon them.
There are cis guys out there who would happily date a stealth trans woman, sleep with her, fall in love with her, etc., even after being told she can’t have children. Enjoy every aspect of it. But if that same cis guy was told she was trans, suddenly he would be appalled at the idea.
It’s fine to not want to date a trans person because you have a genital preference, or because you want to have biological children. But if the only reason you’re not interested in a trans person is because they’re trans? I hate to break it to you, but that’s just bigotry. Something can be both bigotry and a preference at the same time.
That’s not bigotry.
This is bigotry. Any man or woman trans or otherwise can support, befriend and love anyone of any gender of their choosing. They shouldn’t have to do this under duress of being called something they are not.
And my examples remained as close to the topic as could be. Yours reached way out of bounds to illustrate your point.
This isn’t about someone who had a single black great grandparent once way back in history. This is about a person currently, that kihrn have a trait that is u desirable to their preferences in choosing a romantic partner.
Thus has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry unless we are redefining the word.
You are aware that people can interalize bigotry in a way where the person can otherwise be very supportive but still have unconscious biases or unfounded beliefs that only occassionly slip through in specific situations right? That’s a major cause of things like micro aggressions or stereotypes that while not necessarily intentional or meant to be harmful are nonetheless, and is something worth examining to hopefully be able to rid yourself of. No-one is trying to force someone to date a trans person here, we’re just saying if you blanket would never date a trans person it’s probably worth examining your internal biases and beliefs.
Of which, according to OP, and the content they reference, he did none of those things.
Regardless of gender, preference, what have you….
No one is obligated to date you. And if we take this a step further, they’re not even obligated to give you a reason. Yet this man did. It was personal. He wasn’t disrespectful. Yet- you’ve labeled him the same as someone that is hateful.
Do better. There’s so little time we have here. Having said this, we can agree to just disageee.
I literally am OP, I know what the post I’m referring to said. I’m saying the person rejected her for a transphobic reason, not that he himself was like a massive raging bigot. Something someone does can be transphobic while not themselves being a transphobe.
And I’m simply saying that I disagree and don’t think it was a transphobic reason. And I do find it ironic that in a post where you complain about a bigot, you assumed everyone’s gender in the comments based on no info whatsoever.
Apparently if we disagree with you, we are all cis.
I never actually called the date a transphobe or a bigot to be clear. I said he did something transphobic, which I stand by, but the point of my post was venting about how when this trans women was trying to complain about her shitty date experience, a bunch of cis women in the replies took the opportunity to soapbox about how dating preferences are valid, rather than comfort her like how they would normally react to a similar post where a girl got dumped in the middle of a date. That was the point of my post, it had almost nothing to do with the date outside of me trying to add context. You came into the comment section to do the same thing I was complaining about the cis people in that post doing. This post was never supposed to be about whether dating preferences are transphobic, I offhandedly mentioned it in 1 line of the original post and only started actually talking about it when like 3 different people came in to “offer nuance” to a discussion I wasn’t fucking trying to have! I wasn’t the one who started the arguments lmao.
But what about “being trans” can immediately make someone less attractive? Nothing about her physically changed, other than her revealing a medical detail about her past pretty much. It wasn’t about her not being able to get pregnant since the date didn’t mention that as a reason why, and there’s no indication of whether or not the girl had any kind of bottom surgery.
Edit: Also check out this other comment in the thead for a more detailed answer, I assumed you were that person responding at first so I treated my reply as basically a follow-up meaning its not as fleshed out.
Regarding the edit: That’s totally fair. I understand.
As far as the rest. Yeah. I see the point. However, I don’t think it was that he thought of her as less attractive, just outside of his wheelhouse. Take for example, my point about preferences, someone can be into people taller than them. It’s their thing. So if they need soomeome shorter, they may still find said person gorgeous, but the height is a deal-breaker.
With this, it might just be that he doesn’t wan to be with someone that was once the same gender as him. We really can’t know why- but I’d have to agree with a few of the responses- I really don’t think I’d accuse h of being anti-trans. From the info given, he wasn’t offensive or rude, just surprised and kindly backed out.
But that feeling of not wanting to be with a person because they’re trans is transphobia. He might not be outwardly bigoted, but I’m fairly confident he has some level of internalized transphobia. The only way that sort of thing can happen is to believe that fundamentally trans people are different than cis people of the same gender in a negative way. Like the other comments mentioned, the same thing is true for other marginalized groups. A man going from attracted to a white passing woman into losing that attraction upon realizing she isn’t white is because of racism.
That’s simply just not true though.
Transphobia doesn’t mean “refuses to be romantically with tranksfolk”. It means basically that a belief exists that consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender, or transsexual people, or just transness in general.
People are not obligated to be in a relationship with a trans person just because they are the preferred gender. Again, they are allowed preferences. And while they can be kind and supportive of transgenderism, they don’t have to include them in their romantic preferences.
“Transgenderism” Eww… A person being trans isn’t an “ism”. It’s a part of the human condition/being human, not some belief people choose throughout their life.
Yeah I considered mentioning that too but didn’t think it was worth it lmao
That’s not what I’m saying though, like my response to the other comment said a hypothetical person who has never been attracted to a trans person wouldn’t be transphobic. The internalized transphobia comes into play if they are attracted to a trans person, and then lose that attraction once learning they’re trans. Those are very different scenarios, and one is transphobic. No trans person is trying to force cis people to date us, that’s stupid.
It’s not so easy to define though. Gender reassignment has gotten so good that it’s impossible to tell. Which is an amazing thing! However, there are people that have preferences based on criteria they set that determine and influence both who they find attractive, and what situations they are willing to accept in a mate. For instance, I personally don’t like country music. Am I a southphobe? A redneckist? No, but I don’t want to be in a relation with someone that listens to it. It’s not my thing. Yet I am not hateful towards those that enjoy it and in-fact, have many friends that love it.
Now imagine I’m on a date, and it comes up during dinner that they love country music. It’s going to be a no for me. That doesn’t make me hateful.
That some people don’t want their mate to have been assigned the same gender as them isn’t transphobia. It’s just a preference. He doesn’t want to deal with her having once been the same gender as him. That is HIS preference. And it is okay. If he is not hateful, or disrespectful, I’d say it’s not transphobia.
But I’m not the authority on the subject. I’m just trying to add some nuance to the topic. Nothing more.
But what about being trans specifically makes someone potentially less attractive. With country music its a difference in music taste. What fundamental thing do trans people have that causes a loss of attraction. The only thing you keep saying is because of their asab. That’s what’s transphobic, it is treating a trans person as different than a cis person because of the fact they’re trans.
IDK what else I can say to drive home the fact that seeing a trans person as unattractive because of how they were assigned at birth is just a woke way of saying they aren’t really their gender, which is the most basic type of transphobia.
He didn’t see her as a woman, he saw her as a woman* and all his attention went to that asterisk.
Most people are really weird about sex even if they’re open and supportive of others.
He’s wrapped up in all those views passed onto him by a shitty society instead of just having the time of his life.
I hope we create a society where people like him live in regret about how weird they could’ve gotten and all the fun they missed. Til then, I prefer that she’s safe from transphobic regret which our society lets people get away with hurting us.
Its impossible for people to just be supportive of someone having a bad time if they have OPINIONS about the situation at hand. Like a vein about to burst if they don’t get a chance to lay out their exact beliefs in fine detail.
Its ok to be like “fuck that BS girl his loss” and leave it there.
Yeah exactly like this is a post about a girl having a shitty experience with a guy, they get posts like this all the fucking time. It’s practically the point of the community! Only on this one did the comments turn into lecturing the girl for expressing frustration at her date and dating in general though, mysteriously.
Everyone knows why and should call it out too. It’s bigotry towards trans people plain and simple. People expect us to be ok with being treated worse. That’s bullshit!
It’s okay to have dating preferences, but it can be really isolating when you’re in that preferential minority. I think we have to be careful with expressing that in spaces that include cis folks, because it can absolutely fester into transphobia, but it’s basically understandable to be discouraged about stuff like this. Overall, I wish there was more leeway and empathy toward trans people who express they’re lonely without defensive cis people interpreting that as “trans people insist that you must be attracted to them or you’re a transphobe” (which most of us aren’t saying), but we’re definitely not there yet. And while acknowledging that, maybe we do need to have thicker skin when some trans allies aren’t attracted to us. Beauty’s in the eye of the beholder, and there’s someone for everyone.
Another example I think is more apt is a Pew Research study I saw a while back that said majorities of liberals acknowledged trans people were a marginalized group, and majorities also acknowledged that we should have more rights, yet most of the same people in that category believed that a person cannot ever change their sex assigned at birth. And I guess it’s up for debate on the degree to which those people are genuinely allies. (It was from a 2-3 years ago and I can’t find it anymore, but will add a link if I manage to track it down!)
I think a lot of this stuff is generational and once social acceptance increases to the point where more people transition younger on average, and also once young cis people are brought up in that era of social acceptance, we’ll see less off that overall, but only future generations may benefit. But just because most these days don’t see trans people as their identified gender, there are definitely the wonderful ones who do, and maybe we should be screening for those people instead of fixating on the ones who aren’t interested.
Honestly the issue wasn’t as much the date as it was the replies to the post though. Like it was shitty of the guy to reject a girl he was otherwise entirely attracted to because of the fact she was trans, but it was just the lack of empathy in the comments and the way they defended the guy over expressing sympathy that really struck me the wrong way.
I do think not wanting to date any trans person is transphobic though imo. All of the common arguments people make to justify it are things that either aren’t true of every trans person or are things that can also apply to cis people of the same gender too. Its obviously not “you have to be attracted to me or you’re transphobic” but if you’re willing to completely claim you’d not be attracted to a single member of that minority it comes from internalized bigotry imo. The same thing would be true for people of color or any other marginalized group too. I feel like the situation in the post is pretty similar to if a man was on a date with a women who was white passing, and once he found out she wasn’t actually white was suddenly not attracted to her. I couldn’t read that as any way but racism the same way I can’t read the man she was on a date with going from very attracted to no attraction on a dime as anything but transphobia.
I see what you mean, and hope my reply didn’t come off wrong. I was just saying it’s very difficult to broach this conversation with cis people without statements being misinterpreted and feelings being hurt, and was trying to steelman both sides of the issue.
Back when I was on Reddit, I remember seeing exactly the types of posts you’re talking about, and then the dumpster fire that would ensue in the comments. And this would finally culminate in a another suspiciously timed post titled something like “It’s okay to not be attracted to trans people” that would get hundreds or even thousands of bipartisan upvotes, along with a lot of trans-bashing, insinuations of trans people being pushy and predatory, people posting memes that they’re sorting by controversial, all with the original context long forgotten by the discourse it grew into.
I’m so happy not to be on Reddit anymore. Like many things, I don’t think this kind of discussion really lends itself very well to social media in our current climate.
Yeah no you’re good I didn’t take your reply in a bad way don’t worry, I was 100% just continuing to vent haha. And yeah it was a reddit post lmao (I basically only use redlib to read a couple of the trans communities and there was a different post in one of them venting about it that made me see it in the first place). It is definitely something where going outside of actual trans spaces, even into “trans inclusive” ones really sucks I think, I try not to do it often but it’s hard to resist sometimes even when I know it will just make me feel bad lol.
Maybe he’s not into gock and assumed she had one? Really him being into her shouldn’t have changed until they talked about bed stuff, not right when she mentioned she trans, cause he doesn’t know what’s between her legs. If not that then the only thing I could think of is transphobia. Could also just be assumptions and ignorance.
Plus being into a trans girl doesn’t automatically make you not a transphobe. Did the guy say he was an “Ally”? He might not have been.
Legitimately asking here, but is it really considered transphobia to not be interested in dating a trans person?
I don’t know, maybe I’m a horrible person, but I’ve always consider dating preferences to be 100% outside of the whole transphobia, racism, etc spectrum. Those things apply to your ability to treat people like people, be nice and respectful, interact, become friends, etc.
But who you romantically involve yourself with is sacrosanct and you can apply whatever reasoning you want to that. Maybe you won’t date anyone that has mismatched eyes or brown hair, or whatever other arbitrary reasoning matters to you, so long as you’re otherwise polite and respectful of people, that’s your prerogative.
Now the rejected person is also totally allowed to be upset and consider it their loss and vent to others about the experience, but the other person isn’t a ‘transphobe’, assuming they were otherwise not hostile or transphobic to trans people outside of a dating context (and weren’t hateful in their rejection either). Or at least that’s how I see it, but maybe that just makes me transphobic (and I guess racist because I believe you can apply the same logic to not wanting to date someone based on skin color)
Yeah like the other reply said, I wouldn’t consider a hypothetical person who just hasn’t ever been attracted to a trans person transphobic. I genuinely don’t believe that actually exists outside of aro/ace people who experience no attraction though, since trans people can 100% pass as their gender and live completely stealth, so statistically it feels unlikely that someone could avoid ever feeling attracted to a trans person. If someone (like the original posters date) was attracted to a trans person up until the point they realized they were trans though, that’s 100% at the very least internalized transphobia.
Edit: And because trans people or people of color or any other group are so diverse it feels disingenuous to believe a person could genuinely be completely devoid of attraction to that group without some underlying bigotry. Even the examples you gave of innocuous criteria, I find it truly hard to believe that a person could honestly lose all attraction to someone because of their eye color or hair color, who they’d otherwise find attractive.
OP had a good example, I’ll quote them: “The same thing would be true for people of color or any other marginalized group too. I feel like the situation in the post is pretty similar to if a man was on a date with a women who was white passing, and once he found out she wasn’t actually white was suddenly not attracted to her. I couldn’t read that as any way but racism the same way I can’t read the man she was on a date with going from very attracted to no attraction on a dime as anything but transphobia.”
If you’re attracted to someone and then find out they’re trans and then suddenly aren’t attracted to them that’s because of transphobia.
I mean I could be not attracted to people with a mole on their stomach and not find out about that until later even if I was initially attracted to them. I could also be attracted to someone until I found out they were being targeted by a stalker and then lose my attraction to them because of that.
You’re saying that you cannot choose to not be interested in a trans person if they successfully pass and therefore you don’t know in advance without that being transphobic, despite a) who you are romantically attracted to is a deeply personal choice and b) being in a relationship with someone means their life heavily effects yours. People avoid others romantically for life difficulties that aren’t even their fault all the time (nasty exes, legal or money trouble, etc). Wanting to avoid potential issues associated with being trans, even though none of those are the trans person’s fault is the same thing.
I think you’re going to have a really hard sell to lay claim to what people are and aren’t allowed to feel about potential partners. You might get people to give lip service to it, but I doubt you’ll get people to have true buy in to saying they aren’t allowed to feel certain things in regards to potential romantic partners. That’s a pretty extreme take in my opinion.
“I’m not racist but I won’t date anyone with less than 7/8ths white ancestry. Dating not-white people is just too complicated for me and more than I want to deal with. I’m not racist, I just value white culture and want to date within it. Hope this helps.”
I think the issue her is you not understanding what transphobia is.
It wasn’t the guy as much as all the replies from a bunch of cis women, tons of who were self-described “allies”. They’re the ones who really annoyed me, since they were minimizing what the guy did or trying to justify it because “it’s not transphobic to not want to date a trans woman”, or “maybe he wants kids”, etc
Yeah that’s annoying and concerning. If someone is attracted to a trans-woman and isn’t interested after they finds out she’s trans for that reason then yeah its transphobic. And also I know tons of trans people that want kids. Plenty of trans people can still have kids and even if they can’t you could always adopt if you wanted to make it work.
The problem with that is that cis people are weirdly obsessed with having “biological children”, which is absurd to me.
Some trans people can still have biological children.
Correct, but OP was talking about a trans woman and a cis man, hence my remark.
