Edit: looking at all the elaborate replies, I cannot help being amazed. Here I thought the Fedi is overrepresented by computer geeks (such as yours truly) but obviously they’ve got NOTHING on the biologically inclined here! 🥰😍
If poisonous mushrooms are poisonous because it is advantageous for the survival of the specific species, are non poisonous mushroom relatively speaking weaker, less well equipped for the furthering of their species? I suppose that the ability to survive and further a species is multifaceted and that being poisonous or the lack thereof is just one of many parameters?
Depends on many variables…
Mushroom in an env with no animals that eat it never had to evolve a mechanism for defense.
Poison shrooms may use that to deter foragers and foragers evolved to not eat them for survival.
Most traits have or had a purpose that may have helped a species survive and adapt. And there are some that seem to want to go extinct, looking at you pandas.
There are some flaws in the common understanding of survival of the fittest, but I will ignore that for now.
Poison is usually energy intensive to make, so there is an investment from the mushroom in being harder to eat. If there is not a strong pressure from predators, or the mushroom adopts a different strategy like making tons of fruiting bodies (mushrooms), it might not be worth the cost to make the poison.
Finally, poison doesn’t automatically win the evolutionary race. We eat tons of stuff that the plant/mushroom intended to be a deterrent or poison (why are peppers spicy?).
Excellent points would also like to add that sometimes passing through a digestive system is also part of the process. Hot peppers are actually a really good example of this. When a bird eats the pepper, it doesn’t digest the seeds and it shits them out everywhere while it’s flying. Mammals, by contrast, usually do digest / destroy the seeds. So capsaicin (the thing that makes the pepper hot) actually targets a receptor that mammals have and birds don’t. You can actually buy squirrel deterring birdseed that’s coated with capsaicin, but sometimes the squirrels just develop a taste for spiciness.
This is specifically the case for fungi too.
Most mushrooms varieties want to be eaten so that an animal can spread the spores, and the spores are primed by the digestive scarification process. Few mushrooms are toxic to all species.
Rats will also just get used to it.
THC is also a detterant
it’s usually not good for your survival if you’re stoned (if you’re a wild animal)
And now it’s suddenly a reproductive strategy. The same with what chili intended as poison. Hemp and chili wouldn’t grow a tenth as much as they do if it wasn’t fornus liking their poison.
I would argue that every species alive today evidently found a strategy that works, otherwise they wouldn’t be here.
Perhaps some mushrooms actually rely on being eaten somehow. Or perhaps being poisonous comes with downsides, so it isn’t purely an advantage.
apparently gastropods, slugs and snails eat them without ill effect, maybe some insects. mushroom spread through thier spores, either through the wind, or rain. uncommonly some are parasitic on insects.
also mushroom isnt th whole organism anyways, its just the fruiting body. its the filaments in the ground that are mycohrrizae to other plants, like grasses,other plants and trees. so they can just grow new mushroom every now and then. also mycorhyzzie is veyr complex, it helps draw minerals, water from the ground that feeds the plants its roots it attached to, and the plants provide sugars that feed the fungi in return. also the fungi increase the trees, plants overall health and fitness from disease and growth and pests. and you if map out the connections of the fungi in the ground its attached to multiple different plants at once so they are practically sharing one “bowl” of sorts for nutrients. the mushroom is just the reproductive feature, the true organism is the filaments.
also fun fact, since fungi love moisture they usually grow mushrooms right after a rainy day, makes it easier to spread the spores.
there are plenty of animals that would eat fungi, its nutritious. slugs, bugs. death cap is the most toxic, specifically anamita phalloides, destroying angels is one too. the toxin amatoxin-A, and phalloidin both are toxic to the liver, usually kills you within days if untreated. the symptoms are extreme hunger. mammals are most affected, but bugs/slugs evolved a way to deal with it.
anamita phalloides is a problem because its been introduced in the US from imported oak, its arbuscular mycorhizzae as well. and people have mistaken it for a edible version. it depends on the sitiuation, but producing chemicals is actually energy intensive and makes overall fitness for the organism less than the ones that dont rpoduce it. same goes for antibiotic resistant bacteria, they expend more resources in producing it. but its get complicated as bacteria might have other mechanisms to deal with it. if you look a the biosynthesis of amatoxin A or phalloidin, or any toxin, the molecule is quite complex, and requires several enzymatic steps, if you taken biochem you can sorta follow how its created, its quite fascinating.
phalloidin is used in biotech, for its staining ability, it stops actin in cells, so its useful when you want to trace specific proteins, or genes products.
a plant that produce similar effects with a different toxin. Cholchicine comes from the autum crocus, and its used to treat GOUT and mediterrenean fever. apparently gastropods are immune to death caps.
humans cant eat wild berries, but birds can, different evolutionary ways of dealing it.
toxic plants are also quite fascinating, monkshood is extremely poisonious to people, also known as wolfsbane,historically it was used to kill wolves. even touching the plant will poison you.
euphorbia plants, produce a toxic sap that cause severe dermatitis and blistering, burning it is unwise. thats why most animals dont eat things like euphorbia succulents(they look like cactuses). machineel, dynamite tree.
i believe mostly slugs, and insects can deal with death caps, anamitas, while mammals cannot. thats why birds can eat wild berries, because theres a survival strategy for the berries on the plant, they use the birds to spread the seeds to other areas.
Looking at all the elaborate replies, I cannot help being amazed. Here I thought the Fedi is overrepresented by computer geeks (such as yours truly) but obviously they’ve got NOTHING on the biologically inclined here! 🥰😍
. you be fascinated how certain plants produce thier toxin, and how they make it biochemically. obviously for plants they dont want be eaten so they produce very toxic compounds. and then things like certain insects evolved to deal with toxins. just think of native milkweeds and monarch butterflies , they evolved to concentrate the milkweed poisons it in thier bodies. simarly certain swallowtail related to monarchs use plants called aristholcia(ornamental plants too) the plants are quite toxic, and carcinogenic.
Well, we are computer geeks, we just (sometimes) have other avenues of interest too.
Some of us are biology geeks who know how computers work too.
And other are biological geeks who knows how to press buttons.
I know something about poisonous berries.
They’re not poisonous to birds but are to mammals with teeth.
If a mammal would eat them they would crush and destroy the seeds. Birds do spread the seeds though.
We have an invasive Arum Italicum here which has poisonous berries and I thought that was stupid but apparently it’s targeted deterrence and it’s not stupid.
Isn’t that the same with capsicum (chili), which wants to be eaten by birds? Until some very dumb mammals came along and said “Oi, noice pain! Me like!”
yeah peppers, marijuana, tomatoes
we like all of that
swallowtails on specific aristocholcia plants, pretty toxic to humans believes its a nasty carcinogen too, but only native butterfly larvae can it, while some aristocholcia that are non native are too toxic even to native butterflies that can eat it.
Tomatoes? What’s their defense mechanism?
they’re pretty interesting
from poison that disappears the moment the fruit is ripe, to attracting wasps that kill insects, to starving caterpillars that start eating them.
Have you ever touched a tomato plant? The smell is amazing. It’s also sticky.
They’re closely related to potato plants ( nightshade ) and if you didn’t know, potatoe plants make “tomatoes” if you let them flower.
Wait but I’ve eaten green tomatoes? Are they only safe when they’re fried? Or is it more of a mildly sore tummy situation?
Feel free to elaborate on those insect interactions if you feel like it, those sound useful as a gardener.
Hold the fucking phone
I’ve been growing both these plants for years. And i had no idea about this. Potatoes growing tomatoes? I might need to see this for myself. I assume they’re anaemic little things, but still.
Love the smell of toms of course, i didnt know that was a defense mechanism, i thought they just kinda had that smell.
Another fun fact about tomatoes is that since they’re in the nightshade family like tobacco, they contain a small amount of nicotine.
So…tomacco?
I believe the proper term is tomatticcus tobaccus but, to each their own.
wild ones protect themselves from tomato hornworms, by releasing a volatile chemical to alert nearby predators, and parasitoid insects. also some produce “Trichome” hairs to prevent cuscuta parasitic plant from latching on. plant defense against parasites is also fascinating.
birds are practically immune to most berries, something to do with thier digestive system, and different receptors for those poisons. they can eat Yew “berries” with no ill effect.
Another thing to note is that evolution works on everything all at once. The fact that a chemical is poisonous to mammals can be coincidentally when the real purpose is for something else. Fungus have to do lots of decomposing and digesting of different compounds.
Also to note that the mushroom part is just the fruiting body for the fungus that spreads the seeds. So poison there is under a different evolutionary pressure than a poison frog who will die when eaten . If the fruiting body spreads spores then it’s done it’s job
Well, there’s poisonous, toxic and indigestible. Various things can be one of those three to various other things; since mushrooms came first, you’ll find that most of them tend to be toxic to other organisms that haven’t evolved to consume them. Also, it’s good to differentiate between the mycelium and the fruit; often the mushroom fruits ARE poisonous to mammals because they propagate by airborne spores, so the poison evolved as a protection against being eaten before they could spore.
Other mushrooms depend on other features for their survival, from looking like a poisonous mushroom, to not fruiting, to making digestion by an animal part of their reproductive process.
There’s probably more variety in the mushroom kingdom than there is in the animal kingdom.
the mushroom is the reproductive, of mostly mychorrizae type fungi, there are other ones arbuscular(associated with trees), if you want get into niche like mycoheterotrophic plants, they have thier own unique interactions. orchids, some heather “Families”.
theres even a rare parasitic conifer in new caledonia that uses a combination of mycoheterotrophs and something like mistletoe form of parasitism.
IDK anything about biology so this is just supposition…
Aren’t fungi one of the oldest forms of life?
If so is it possible the poison isn’t really relevant to the fungis survival and reproduction, but just… incidentally toxic to mammals?
yes they evolved like 1-2bn years ago, so very old. algae even older. archaea and bacteria likely appeared 3.5bn years ago the LUCA is older(common to all living things)
You should ask toxic people, they seem to thrive in this economy (ba dum tss).
I would guess it depends on the environment. Energy needs to he expended to develop and secrete toxins, it’s not a free perk.
Plus, you have all the fungi (+ other critters) who cheat and simply look like a poisonous guy to avoid getting eaten. I know there’s lots of snakes and such that do that, there are probably plenty of copycat shrooms.
Did not do biology so don’t know any of the specifics!
what gets me is poisonous berries. usually the point of fruit is to get eaten and spread the seeds. you basically want the seed to be indigestible so that it is eaten around or spit out or survives the process to be deposited in poop.
poisonous berries aren’t poisonous to birds because they poop out the seed but they are poisonous to animals with teeth who would crush and the destroy the teeth
As for ourselves, and most other mammals: we rely heavily on social relationships, so much so that our survival depends on them. Suddenly becoming poisonous would be a big disadvantage to us. Imagine if all pets and livestock got poisoned from us touching them.
Well we’re kind of poisoning the world already. But you get what I mean.
If poisonous mushrooms are poisonous because it is advantageous for the survival of the specific species, are non poisonous mushroom relatively speaking weaker, less well equipped for the furthering of their species?
It depends on many factors/variables. For instance, if they spread by being eaten and then shit out in a different area then being poisonous could work against them. If they don’t have something that preys on them by eating them, then producing poison can make them do work that would be better spent in some other fashion.
I suppose that the ability to survive and further a species is multifaceted and that being poisonous or the lack thereof is just one of many parameters?
Correct
Sorry to be that guy, but: venomous*
If you get sick from biting it, it’s poisonous.
If you get sick from it biting you, it’s venomous.…as long as it’s part of Animalia, at least.
Man, the amount of times I’ve been bitten by a mushroom, too many to count, too painful to recount.
Mushrooms aren’t animalia
OP didn’t talk about animalia, only about fungi.
