Hi there, I wouldn’t be making this post if I saw another one about it, but…

I both dislike centralization and nonfree Javascript. I believe the spirit of Lemmy embraces both ideals, however, Cloudflare both promotes a centralized internet that requires the execution of nonfree scripts to interact with it. I understand that bots (epsecially LLM powered) are a pervasive issue that plagues this (and many other) communities. I also understand that being logged-in prevents the requirement of using Cloudflare’s captcha, so that only a one-time login is required, although I’m constantly blocking requests to cloudflareinsignts.com.

Finally, I understand that I the alternatives are not necessarily effective, although it seems to work for many projects. I’m not saying other solutions are better for short or medium term, but I was wondering if the management were planning on eventually replacing it.

    • blamster19@programming.dev
      0·
      24 days ago

      I use Firefox Focus on my mobile and I can’t enter sites with CloudFlare because it says my browser is incompatible. It gets annoying when I ramp up my privacy on the Internet and sites outright refuse to load if they see I don’t allow cookies and trackers. I’d rather see broken js-free website than pitch black CloudFlare page.

      • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
        0·
        24 days ago

        I use Firefox Focus on my mobile and I can’t enter sites with CloudFlare because it says my browser is incompatible.

        I also use Firefox Focus and I never experienced that issue at all. Are you sure this is a Cloudflare issue?

        Also, site owners are purposely using Cloudflare to protect themselves from abnormal traffic. If site owners are the ones paying Cloudflare to lift these barriers, why do you interpret this issue as a problem created by Cloudflare?

        • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
          0·
          24 days ago

          Are you sure this is a Cloudflare issue?

          For shits and giggles I logged into programming.dev with Firefox Focus, and suffice to say I’m posting this with that browser.

          I also did some tweaking and I did noticed that it I configure Firefox Focus to strip all types of tracking (akin to NoScript) then Cloudflare complains about extensions.

          • blamster19@programming.dev
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            24 days ago

            Exactly that, Cloudflare complains about extensions. It’s a matter of aggressive tracking protection. I can view Anubis protected sites just fine, only the Cloudflare ones prevent access.

            • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
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              24 days ago

              Exactly that, Cloudflare complains about extensions.

              What you are describing is not browser incompatibility. It’s default fallback page that Cloudflare shows when it fails to run its javascript code.

              Site owners such as programming.dev maintainers purposely onboarded Cloudflare to run those scripts, as that’s how their anti-abuse system works.

              • blamster19@programming.dev
                0·
                24 days ago

                The ‘browser incompatibility’ is what’s written on the fallback page. The question was about the problem that migration from Cloudflare would solve and I provided one particular problem. Not that it affects me personally, because I use a standalone app for Lemmy, but I assume there are some people that do not wish to run Cloudflare js

                • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
                  0·
                  24 days ago

                  The ‘browser incompatibility’ is what’s written on the fallback page.

                  No. The page clearly says “Incompatible browser extension or network configuration”.

                  It then lists a number of troubleshooting steps to get the page to work.

                  The question was about the problem that migration from Cloudflare would solve and I provided one particular problem.

                  I don’t think so. Site maintainers are expecting your browser to run the scripts to detect and prevent abuse, and you are going way out of your way to not run them. You are not describing a problem.

    • Feyter@programming.dev
      0·
      24 days ago

      I trink this is rooted in forward thinking. If cloud flare gets a monopoly in that position (what it arguably already has), they can project all the power of a monopoly about us…

      So this is more about preventing future problems and not solving problems that exist.

      • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
        0·
        24 days ago

        So this is more about preventing future problems and not solving problems that exist.

        The question remains unanswered: which problems, hypothetically or otherwise, would this migration solve?

          • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
            0·
            24 days ago

            Cloudflare projecting its dominating power onto lemmy?

            I’m sorry, this assertion is meaningless scaremongering. What exactly is “projecting it’s dominating power” supposed to mean?

            And by the way, may I point out that site maintainers purposely adopted Cloudflare to serve specific purposes?

            • Kissaki@programming.devEnglish
              0·
              23 days ago

              to serve specific purposes

              You’re asking for specifics on their concerns while not providing the specifics that were already in place in your claim here.

              They acknowledged and included reasons for the Cloudflare adoption in their original post.

            • Feyter@programming.dev
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              23 days ago

              OK, if there is a monopolistic instance between you and the rest of the world that decides who can reach you and who not and you are depending on that single monopolistic instance, I think we all agree that this is a bad thing.

              Potential threads from this are (but not limited to):

              • cloudflare going up in price and you have to take it.
              • cloudflare is blocking or restricting access to your page, because of political dispute.
              • cloudflare collects meta data to reconstruct user behavior and social relationship and uses it to pressure individuals.
              • lysdexic@programming.devEnglish
                0·
                23 days ago

                OK, if there is a monopolistic instance between you and the rest of the world that decides who can reach you

                It’s the site owners who are rolling out anti-abuse systems. They picked a vendor to meet their needs. I don’t think Cloudflare put a gun to their heads to force them to onboard their services. Do you?

                Potential threads from this are (but not limited to):

                You mean “hypothetical”, not “potential”.

                Meaning, they are imaginary scenarios, and they represent the worst case you could think of.

                You need to ask site owners what is their policy for these hypothetical scenarios you invented. On a technical side, removing anti-abuse protection is all it takes to fix it. This means that no action is required to address any of your hypothetical concerns.

                • Feyter@programming.dev
                  0·
                  23 days ago

                  I really don’t know what you are aiming for…

                  Concerns about cloudflare becoming an issue are totally valid. Good day.

        • refalo@programming.dev
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          24 days ago

          Personally I cannot visit most crimeflare sites because it just gives me an infinite captcha loop… so moving away from them seems like that would solve that issue.

    • Deebster@programming.dev
      0·
      24 days ago

      Personally, my local Cloudflare seems to have some problem with IPv6 and many sites won’t load. On my desktop I’ve set Firefox to use IPv4 for such sites, but on my phone I need to use mobile data (which doesn’t support IPv6). I don’t think it’s a common problem, but you did ask.