- cross-posted to:
- fixing@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- fixing@slrpnk.net
Ifixit take on current bike/e-bike manufacturers.
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I guess the best thing to do is to research the bikes that do this bullshit and don’t buy them.
The vast majority of consumers don’t care. They look for a product which is in their budget, and they think does what they want.
The market will select for companies which and most profitable.
The best thing to do is to pass laws that make this practice of enshitification illegal.
Legislation like that seems reasonable considering the standards that exist for cars and bikes serve literally the same societal purpose as cars.
Since steel frames seem to last forever, Id just get a decades old used bike. Maybe get some new wheels
I hate this trend.
My “gravel bike” is a '90s mountainbike with dirt drop bars.
My “travel bike” is a '90s mountainbike with rack and fenders.
And my “cruiser” is a '90s mountainbike with ape hanger handlebars.My only bike is a '90s Dutch omafiets. Rack, fenders, frame lock, fixed lighting, chain case, coaster brakes, single speed and riding comfort for days. I’ve replaced nearly every part on this thing myself since I bought it used.
Not for everyone depending on local terrain, but if you live somewhere flat I couldn’t recommend it more.
The great thing about bikes is that there’s just… a shitload out there, especially vintage repairable units. And LOTS of vintage frames and parts that are often tossed to the road as trash, just cleanly available to take. It does of course require one to have the drive to do the repairs yourself, but that is another thing; thank goodness DIY bike repair shops exist.
My main bike right now is around 20 years old and is still trucking along. Cars usually don’t even last that long lol.
My ~30 year-old MTB cost me $150. Good luck finding a car with that much value! It’s already paid for itself twice over in the last year, just from not having to spend it on gas.
And the kicker? The components are dirt cheap compared to modern bike parts. AND I can fix the entire thing at home.
I bought a new cassette, chain and derailleur for my main bike; it’s probably 20-30 years old in it’s frame and has some signs of wear, but those parts are probably the most I’ve “invested” in keeping it running well. Compare to a car with new belts, filters, etc. It’s crazy our cities are not designed more densely.
My city used to have a tram system until they ripped it out in the 1950s. We’ve been going backwards in time here in north america.
One of the reasons the tech nerd in me is against some of the fancy modern e-bikes like Cowboy. And the silly wireless shifter stuff. But the tech is cool!
The only thing I realize and accept I won’t repair myself are hydraulic brakes and wheel truing. At least I understand the mechanism, I just think someone with more experience should do it. Everything else on a bike should be simple enough to fix with the right (cheap-ish) tool, an hour or so of time and a good manual.
Wheel truing and building is not as scary as it seems.
Yes, although you need to know what you are doing because in the worst case it can be a really costly fuck-up and/or dangerous. Working on “regular” wheels is usually quite easy though.
I have 0 idea what i’m doing when i build mine, then i watched Park Tools video about it. That company is truly a god send for home repair.
Reading the article, it really sounds like 95%+ of the problem is eBikes.
Traditional bikes have this problem, too, but outside of high-end stuff where the OEM is building a bespoke platform, most bikes still use common parts. Every few years, eg, Shimano, comes up with a slightly different bottom bracket, but it’s usually a $20 socket, at most.
Heck, I’d hazard it’s getting better now that there’s fewer weird French or Italian “standards” and everyone is using more or less the same stuff.
But yes, eBikes, that’s where the issue really is. A large part of the issue is that every manufacturer wants to reinvent the wheel–sometimes literally–because they feel they need to stand out in the market. No one wants to be just an integrator of whatever Shimano or SRAM are selling that year, albeit with different coats of paint, but when they realize that’s where they’ll end up, we’ll all be the better for it.
It’s sad, but there is such a small percentage of people that care about this at all. When Shimano announced they where going with a new driver for 12s cassettes called microspline instead of using the standard XD from SRAM I said to myself people won’t fall for this crap… but they did. And now we have three different freehub standards.
This is extremely frustrating. For individual bike shops, this now means business is going to be forced into large corporate owned shops just for simple things like rebuilding a hub. Really hoping the bike community pools together and offers a generic, simple bike that is useful for stuff like touring or grocery runs, without a bunch of specialized parts. Something like the buffalo bicycle
I think we already have that.
Bikes, at least non-electric ones, have an immensely long service life and there’s not much margin, and thusly not a whole lot of incentive to deviate from standards unless you’re willing write very big cheques to machine a million copies of something custom–and there’s not really that much improvement year to year. Manufacturers are trying oh so very hard to balkanize the market, but doing so just increases their costs and allows someone else to come in and make a steel-framed 700c with Shimano whatever-they-call-it-this-week for the same money or less.
We are seeing experimentation, usually in the cargo- and fat-bike markets, as well as at the very high end, but no one’s having a ton of success. Even high-end road bikes still use a lot of common components.
I suppose that’s true, bikes haven’t changed much in the last 30 years. But maybe this is just my short term memory, but it seems like there has been a rise in specialized parts for bikes? Like thru-axles were originally only meant for high end mountain bikes, now it’s standard. Same with hydraulic disc brakes, suspension, etc. Lately what’s been scaring me is ebikes, which have software/controllers that aren’t meant to be opened or repaired, just return to manufacturer. For now it’s only high end bikes, but how long until the electronic shifters make it’s way onto even the old used bike market?
It’s funny that the high end (human powered/“analog”) bikes tend to actually be pretty good at this. Want to change your $5k+ bike from 11s to 12s? Yep, should be doable — you’ll need to replace group set and possibly the rear hub, but it’s totally possible.
Upgrade from cable to electronic shifting? Again, totally doable.
Switch from Shimano to SRAM or Campy? Yep, should be possible.
Now, if you crack your carbon frame…well, that’s another story.
When you crack your carbon frame you can move the other gear to the new frame (though it’s a bit tatty and the new SRAM drivetrain is so much cooler than the old one
(I buy a frameset and whatever specialist gear from a manufacturer and have a local bike mech turn it into a bike, I reckon I’m pretty safe from the problem as long as I’m able to run human powered)
Except if they change BB or axle spacing standards, which seems to be happening every few years.
I struggled to find a half decent 135 QR 29er wheel last year for my Trek Xcaliber. A nearly $2000CDN bike from 2016 with nothing wrong except the free hub, and everywhere told me to just get a new bike.
I like my bikes, but I really hate the people running the industry.
Trek is particularly bad about this: they now sell a “platform” instead of a bike. This makes it comparably hard to get replacements for a Domane or CheckPoint because certain parts are sized for that bike and that bike only.
But a 135 QR 29er wheel isn’t that special, so finding one that wasn’t either a junk hub or $600 hub shouldn’t have been an issue. Even finding TA non boost wheels is becoming difficult.
I ended up finding a lightly used Nukeproof wheel for around $100.
Thankfully the fork on that same bike is just using off the shelf SRAM parts.
I’m a road bike guy, so that’s probably my ignorance showing. I’ve sat out the recent evolution in MTB stuff.
This really is a concern.
All the bikes I ride, are still using standard components that are easy to fix/tune/replace at home.
But I’m seeing more and more bikes with great tech, don’t get me wrong, but they have a very limited lifespan and almost no longevity in the coming decades.
Meanwhile, my 90’s MTB, which goes anywhere and carries anything, has very inexpensive and easily replaceable parts. The only way I could make it even more future-proof is to run a friction shifter on it.
Join the friction shifter gang!
There are so many bike things that I want to try, but have no good way to: friction shifting, single-speed, cargo bike, belt drive, etc…
I keep hearing the dude from The Path Less Pedaled constantly bringing up friction shifters, but they remain a dream for now.
I used friction shifters back when they were all you could get. Click is much nicer. In theory my 10 speed had 10 different gear ratios, but in practice it had 4 as I could never reliably find the 3 middle gears in the back.
One of my bikes has SRAM mountain bike handlebar twist shifters and they’re great. Twist to select like a motorcycle throttle, selected gear shown in a window on the handle
I wonder if friction works better when you have fewer gears. That way, you can feel the steps more easily.
Is that possible? I suspect it is, because on my 11-speed Shimano 105, some steps are so similar, that even with an index shifter, you sometimes don’t notice the jumps!
Friction shifters work better with more gears, or rather, they’re more useful with more gears.
It’s comparatively easy to make a derailleur and shifter that can reliable hit seven rear gears, but making a mechanical device that can hit the index on 11 or 12 speeds is not a trivial challenge; to get that to work reliably, in every gear, with a cable that stretches and sticks, is hard to do.
A friction shifter gets rid of the indices and the requirement to adjust stops.
This is also why electronic shifters are a thing: getting the cable and shifter adjusted is finicky with 11 or 12 gears, but the little motor can do it every time, and adjusting the indexes is easy. Now, if it breaks…
I have the same GX groupset on two bikes - both 12 speed. One is AXS, the other is cable. The AXS shifter never misses. Ever. Can’t say that about the cable, which I’ve adjusted many times. I think it’s a great upgrade.
It’s also something I can work on, repair, etc. I don’t think that’s going to be the case with the upcoming setup where the gearing is colocated with the motor, and there’s no derailleur. That’s going to be a shop (or probably even manufacturer) repair.
This makes a lot of sense!
You cannot feel the gears with friction shifters. Your move the lever until you hear the change and your legs report a difference. There is zero feedback for your fingers as to what gear you are in. With a click shift you move the lever one click and you move one gear making it easy to select any gear you want.
Of course I’m assuming well adjusted click shifters. My old bike (was 15 years old but the frame cracked so I replaced it last week) the something was not adjusted right and so sometimes I couldn’t hit a gear anymore, but it started out very nice for a few years. With my newer bikes the click shifters always put me exactly on the gear I want with no trouble.
Your move the lever until you hear the change and your legs report a difference.
Right, but when you’ve got something like an 11 or 12 speed cassette, your legs can’t really feel much difference between some of the higher gears.
My assumption is that if the difference between the number of teeth is greater (i.e. a wide range cassette with only 6 - 8 cogs), you’ll probably be able to feel the difference more easily.
This is why i want to try one! I’d like to actually know what it feels like, rather than assuming.
I’ve only used them on a 5 gear cassette. based on my more nodern bikes I’d expect there to be a significant difference between gears but I haven’t had those bikes in working order in 20 years. My memory is I could never find any gears except the biggest and smallest.
I do intend to get those bikes in working order but money and time are limited and those are low on my todo list (my todo list will take 3000 years to complete so don’t go expecting me to get them done soon)
^But I’m seeing more and more bikes with great tech, don’t get me wrong, but they have a very limited lifespan and almost no longevity in the coming decades.
I honestly think they could be said about most tech nowadays. I always took for granted that newer technology would replace older tech but have even greater longevity… But at least when it comes to consumer-level products, i believe very few things are ‘buy-it-for-life’ anymore. Proprietary tech is ridiculously abundant, seems everything has to have a custom digital brain, wi-fi, bluetooth, DRM, subscriptions, etc. and all that comes with the adoption of cheap tech to make it affordable enough for the average person.
Once that company has moved onto the next thing though, how long will they support their previous products? If proprietary circuitry or a website is involved, it’s a near-guarantee you’ll be unable to use it in a matter of time–whether due to the website/server going dark or the product itself getting borked due to cheap manufacturing/design/etc. If there is to be any long-term support, it may actually come in the form of hobbyist groups willing to design and build their own circuitry, 3D print replacement/upgrade parts…stuff that often requires a very skilled and dedicated group. It’s pretty cool when you can find a bunch of like-minded individuals sharing info and working together to keep something going or take it to the next level, but that’s not a substitute for long-term product support. Companies used to be held to some sort of standard–or at least i was led to think so when i was younger. It’s weird to think back to the days when long-term reliability was a genuine selling point. The Maytag man bored in the shop, lol. Those days are long gone
The additional complexity and manteinance needed by ebikes is the major factor that scares me, more than price.
I want to do as little manteinance to my bike as possible, to be able to do it on my own, and ebikes don’t look like something that would allow me to do so, at the moment
I’d suggest convert a bike into one and not buy purposely-made ebike if you want that. I turn my 20+ year old bike into an ebike recently and did 1000km++ with it, all the maintenance i ever did is on the bike itself, nothing on the electrical component yet. Added benefits is it will still have repairable part, so nothing is proprietary, even the ebike components. So if my motor broke tomorrow(please don’t), i can just order a generic brand motor and swap it in, so is the controller, screen, throttle, battery, everything.
This is a good point. What conversion kit did you use?
I just use generic brand just to dip myself into ebike scene, and even then it works very well. The one i used is from L-Faster. I think it required more work with these diy conversion kit, but those branded or that can be done quickly (swytch, bafang, bosch) have the same proprietary issue.
I just bought a relatively decent folding bike, a Tern Link C8. Have no idea how repairable it is but it is definitely simpler and better made than my previous bike which was a lectric xp lite which was just getting worse and worse after getting about 800 miles out of it. So I definitely feel like bike makers are following auto makers with this stuff and it sucks.
What I was hoping for was for electric bikes to get cheaper, lighter and more efficient as time went on but it feels like the opposite. Those ebikes are like 3 grand still while the shitty heavy and obtusely designed “cheap” ebikes still cost as much as a decent normal bike. Im happy avoiding ebikes for now which are just glorified motorcycles that still cant keep up with shitty impatient drivers.
Yet another failure of government to regulate bad business practices. The manufacturers shouldn’t have a choice in the matter. Do X and Y, or you don’t get to play at all.
