The evidence is that if they don’t vote for her then they’re going to get Trump
Yes. That’s right. And it’s entirely Harris’s fault. No one else’s. She could change policy and earn their vote. She doesn’t, and so hands the election to Trump.
Yet you’re such a sycophant that instead of outrage at her, you’re outraged at the voters whom you think somehow owe her a vote. You’re outraged at the people practising democracy for not falling into line with the authoritarians trying to undermine it.
Harris will win more votes than she will lose if she changes policy on arms sales to Israel. That is what the evidence shows - overwhelming support for such a policy among previously Democrat voters and abstainers in key states.
Candidates changing policy to meet voter’s expectations is exactly how democracy functions, even flawed ones like the US normally vaguely track voter preferences.
So if Harris changed policy she would not worsen her support, nor would she be doing anything other than her job.
The fact that she isn’t will be the single fact responsible for a Trump win, if he wins. Nothing else. Every other person involved would have been acting accordingly, only the Harris team are out of line.
They are acting undemocratically, and probably illegally, backing a genocide. And you’re defending them, and attacking the people supporting democracy and peace…
The evidence is that if they don’t vote for her then they’re going to get Trump
Yes. That’s right. And it’s entirely Harris’s fault. No one else’s. She could change policy and earn their vote. She doesn’t, and so hands the election to Trump.
Oh fuck off with that… They’d rather vote for the fascist who has outright said he’d destroy Hamas? That’s on them for being stupid fucking morons. Don’t blame Harris for their stupidity.
At the general election for POTUS is the wrong fucking time to plant your stake in the ground. Anyone who wants a different candidate in 2028 that supports their views needed to get really involved in 2020, at the latest. The next best time to do that is right now for 2028. I’m not defending Harris. I’m saying the people you’re talking about are fucking morons and need to suddenly get smart.
I’m saying that Harris or Trump will be the next POTUS and all you can do right now is express your preference on which one you want it to be.
If you’re driving down the road and you come to a situation where you can either run over a person or hit a telephone pole then you have to decide what to do. You can gripe and moan about your situation and how you don’t want to either one, but that doesn’t change the reality. If you choose to not make a choice then the choice will be made for you and you’ll have to live with the consequences.
That’s true of all decisions. You’re advocating a single party autocracy. One whose opening policy is to support genocide. You’ll have to live with the consequences of that decision too.
You’re putting up a false-equivalency. It may well be that a bunch Ukrainian soldiers die and Russia takes over anyway. It might be that they don’t put up a fight and others step in. (Highly unlikely, but not a forgone conclusion.) There are other scenarios that might play out.
On the other hand, either Trump or Harris absolutely will be the next POTUS. Which one do you want it to be? Answer the question this time… no explanations required for your choice. Which one do you choose?
Either Harris gets fewer votes, or the Democrats get the message that supporting genocide is OK with the electorate, that it’s a choice they can make without electoral repercussions.
One of those two things will happen.
Do you “want” to give the message to the Democrats that genocide is OK by you?
Or is it rather that you’d be prepared to risk that to avoid a Trump presidency?
It’s not a false equivalency. If I don’t vote - the matter in question here - it’s not a foregone conclusion that Trump will win. Harris might still win but only by a very very narrow margin.That would be a great outcome as far as I’m concerned. A Harris presidency, but clear message that votes cannot be relied on and if they want a safer win next time, they’d better drop the genocide support. Harris might also change policy. Very.much like the examples you gave, other options exist.
It remains a risk not a consequence. And very much like soldiers dying. Have you ever heard of a war in which no soldiers died? No. Yet we still don’t say “you want soldiers to die” when describing someone who thinks it’s a necessary risk to defend one’s country. The likelihood of the risk coming about clearly doesn’t make any difference to the way we talk about it. It’s about intent. I’m not aiming for a Trump presidency. If I was, I’d vote for him. I’m aiming to avoid normalising genocide. A collateral risk in that aim is a Trump presidency. A risk I think is worth it for the objective.
What is utterly false is suggesting that because there are two options I must “want” one of them. That’s just garbage. My preferences are not determined by the options offered. I could want neither options, or genuinely not care which, or like both equally. In this case I “want” neither. I am prepared to accept either. I will accept the risk of a Trump presidency.
I know you think you’ve set up some clever ‘gothca’, but it’s just nonsense to say that because there are two options I must actually “want” one of them. Anyone can see that.
And besides, you’re the one imploring them to just vote without any regard to policy, so what exactly is “getting involved”?
No, I’m saying that at this point in time that the next POTUS is either going to be Harris or Trump. Which of those two do you want it to be? Vote accordingly.
Your claim is that, come election time, we should always vote for the least worst party which has a chance of getting in. That’s always the Democrats and always will be if we follow your system.
So the corollary of your system is that one party runs America for ever.
I want it to be whichever results from us attempting to preserve democracy.
Our nation has taken far, far bigger risks than 4 years of Trump to preserve democracy.
Determining something to be an acceptable risk is not the same as wanting it. Casualties are an acceptable risk of a just war. No one says people want soldiers to die.
I’m prepared to risk a Trump presidency to preserve some semblance of democracy and make it clear that genocide is never an acceptable option. That doesn’t mean I want a Trump presidency any more than being prepared to risk soldier’s lives during war means you want soldiers to die.
This is beyond the pale. You must have checked off on all of your entitlements before you came to this realization. Because what you’re doing by “risking” a Trump presidency is potentially going to hurt a lot of people. Get over yourself and pay attention to what’s going here.
what you’re doing by “risking” a Trump presidency is potentially going to hurt a lot of people
This is beyond the pale. You must have checked off on all of your entitlements before you came to this realization. Because what you’re doing by “risking” genocide being normalised is potentially going to hurt a lot of people. Get over yourself and pay attention to what’s going here.
See how pointless conversation becomes if you just assume your interlocutor is mistaken without a case.
We might as well be in a school-yard yelling “no you are…”
If you think a Trump presidency risks more harm than normalising genocide and undermining democracy, then make the fucking case. This is a discussion forum. Discuss. What is your evidence, how have you weighed it, what critique can you offer of the case I’ve made… Give us something beyond childish bleating.
You’re not taking a risk. You are promoting a Trump presidency. If you can’t or won’t accept reality then there is no need to continue this conversation.
Yes. That’s right. And it’s entirely Harris’s fault. No one else’s. She could change policy and earn their vote. She doesn’t, and so hands the election to Trump.
Yet you’re such a sycophant that instead of outrage at her, you’re outraged at the voters whom you think somehow owe her a vote. You’re outraged at the people practising democracy for not falling into line with the authoritarians trying to undermine it.
Harris will win more votes than she will lose if she changes policy on arms sales to Israel. That is what the evidence shows - overwhelming support for such a policy among previously Democrat voters and abstainers in key states.
Candidates changing policy to meet voter’s expectations is exactly how democracy functions, even flawed ones like the US normally vaguely track voter preferences.
So if Harris changed policy she would not worsen her support, nor would she be doing anything other than her job.
The fact that she isn’t will be the single fact responsible for a Trump win, if he wins. Nothing else. Every other person involved would have been acting accordingly, only the Harris team are out of line.
They are acting undemocratically, and probably illegally, backing a genocide. And you’re defending them, and attacking the people supporting democracy and peace…
Oh fuck off with that… They’d rather vote for the fascist who has outright said he’d destroy Hamas? That’s on them for being stupid fucking morons. Don’t blame Harris for their stupidity.
At the general election for POTUS is the wrong fucking time to plant your stake in the ground. Anyone who wants a different candidate in 2028 that supports their views needed to get really involved in 2020, at the latest. The next best time to do that is right now for 2028. I’m not defending Harris. I’m saying the people you’re talking about are fucking morons and need to suddenly get smart.
And let’s be clear here what you’re advocating.
In the case that the Republicans are worse than the Democrats, people should vote Democrat and no other party.
The Republicans will always be worse than the Democrats.
Therefore, people should always vote Democrat in all cases and no other party.
That’s exactly the Chinese totalitarian system. One party which you must vote for regardless of what you think of their policies.
I’m saying that Harris or Trump will be the next POTUS and all you can do right now is express your preference on which one you want it to be.
If you’re driving down the road and you come to a situation where you can either run over a person or hit a telephone pole then you have to decide what to do. You can gripe and moan about your situation and how you don’t want to either one, but that doesn’t change the reality. If you choose to not make a choice then the choice will be made for you and you’ll have to live with the consequences.
That’s true of all decisions. You’re advocating a single party autocracy. One whose opening policy is to support genocide. You’ll have to live with the consequences of that decision too.
I’m telling you the reality that Harris or Trump will be the next POTUS. Which one do you want it to be?
I’m not required to want either.
“Either some Ukrainian soldiers die, or Putin takes over Ukraine, that’s the reality”…
“Oh! So you want Ukrainian soldiers to die!”
Being prepared to risk something is not the same as actively promoting that thing. This is not up for debate, it’s a basic fact.
You’re putting up a false-equivalency. It may well be that a bunch Ukrainian soldiers die and Russia takes over anyway. It might be that they don’t put up a fight and others step in. (Highly unlikely, but not a forgone conclusion.) There are other scenarios that might play out.
On the other hand, either Trump or Harris absolutely will be the next POTUS. Which one do you want it to be? Answer the question this time… no explanations required for your choice. Which one do you choose?
Or we could look at it this way.
Either Harris gets fewer votes, or the Democrats get the message that supporting genocide is OK with the electorate, that it’s a choice they can make without electoral repercussions.
One of those two things will happen.
Do you “want” to give the message to the Democrats that genocide is OK by you?
Or is it rather that you’d be prepared to risk that to avoid a Trump presidency?
It’s not a false equivalency. If I don’t vote - the matter in question here - it’s not a foregone conclusion that Trump will win. Harris might still win but only by a very very narrow margin.That would be a great outcome as far as I’m concerned. A Harris presidency, but clear message that votes cannot be relied on and if they want a safer win next time, they’d better drop the genocide support. Harris might also change policy. Very.much like the examples you gave, other options exist.
It remains a risk not a consequence. And very much like soldiers dying. Have you ever heard of a war in which no soldiers died? No. Yet we still don’t say “you want soldiers to die” when describing someone who thinks it’s a necessary risk to defend one’s country. The likelihood of the risk coming about clearly doesn’t make any difference to the way we talk about it. It’s about intent. I’m not aiming for a Trump presidency. If I was, I’d vote for him. I’m aiming to avoid normalising genocide. A collateral risk in that aim is a Trump presidency. A risk I think is worth it for the objective.
What is utterly false is suggesting that because there are two options I must “want” one of them. That’s just garbage. My preferences are not determined by the options offered. I could want neither options, or genuinely not care which, or like both equally. In this case I “want” neither. I am prepared to accept either. I will accept the risk of a Trump presidency.
I know you think you’ve set up some clever ‘gothca’, but it’s just nonsense to say that because there are two options I must actually “want” one of them. Anyone can see that.
They did.
Again, your blind faith that the system will work if only the people just tried harder is sycophantic at best, if not downright insulting.
And besides, you’re the one imploring them to just vote without any regard to policy, so what exactly is “getting involved”?
Why would the Democrats listen to anything anyone says if they’re guaranteed your vote come election day anyway?
No, I’m saying that at this point in time that the next POTUS is either going to be Harris or Trump. Which of those two do you want it to be? Vote accordingly.
That’s the same thing.
Your claim is that, come election time, we should always vote for the least worst party which has a chance of getting in. That’s always the Democrats and always will be if we follow your system.
So the corollary of your system is that one party runs America for ever.
So why bother with elections at all?
You can deny reality all you want, but Harris or Trump is going to be the next POTUS. Which one do you want it to be?
I want it to be whichever results from us attempting to preserve democracy.
Our nation has taken far, far bigger risks than 4 years of Trump to preserve democracy.
Determining something to be an acceptable risk is not the same as wanting it. Casualties are an acceptable risk of a just war. No one says people want soldiers to die.
I’m prepared to risk a Trump presidency to preserve some semblance of democracy and make it clear that genocide is never an acceptable option. That doesn’t mean I want a Trump presidency any more than being prepared to risk soldier’s lives during war means you want soldiers to die.
This is beyond the pale. You must have checked off on all of your entitlements before you came to this realization. Because what you’re doing by “risking” a Trump presidency is potentially going to hurt a lot of people. Get over yourself and pay attention to what’s going here.
This is beyond the pale. You must have checked off on all of your entitlements before you came to this realization. Because what you’re doing by “risking” genocide being normalised is potentially going to hurt a lot of people. Get over yourself and pay attention to what’s going here.
See how pointless conversation becomes if you just assume your interlocutor is mistaken without a case.
We might as well be in a school-yard yelling “no you are…”
If you think a Trump presidency risks more harm than normalising genocide and undermining democracy, then make the fucking case. This is a discussion forum. Discuss. What is your evidence, how have you weighed it, what critique can you offer of the case I’ve made… Give us something beyond childish bleating.
You’re not taking a risk. You are promoting a Trump presidency. If you can’t or won’t accept reality then there is no need to continue this conversation.