This is an open question on how to get the masses to care…
Unfortunately, if other people don’t protect their privacy it affects those who do, because we’re all connected (e.g. other family members, friends). So it presents a problem of how do you get people who don’t care, to care?
I started the Rebel Tech Alliance nonprofit to try to help with this, but we’re still really struggling to convert people who have never thought about this.
(BTW you might need to refresh our website a few times to get it to load - no idea why… It does have an SSL cert!)
So I hope we can have a useful discussion here - privacy is a team sport, how do we get more people to play?
you should stop calling people “normies”, if you want them to care about what you have to say
noted, and you’re right.
I actually mis-applied that term in my post. I’ve been trying to learn about tech, and self hosting in particular, along this journey. I found that ‘normies’ is the term that tech-savvy people apply to people who don’t know about tech - i.e. me! - and I started using it. In the sense of “these install instructions will never work with normies”.
In this context I shouldn’t have used it to refer to people who do not care about data privacy. I’ll edit my post.
Thank you for pointing that out!
Privacy is a team sport - how do we get more more people to play?
now you’re calling them "more"s 🙂
Sounds like something normies would say. 🤣
I call them normies not because I look down upon them or I hate them I do that because whenever I educate them to use privacy oriented services they mock me saying “you are crazy” “you aren’t president” “nobody cares about your data” yada yada yada…
It makes me frustrated :(
Adult people talking like that lol
🤡
I generally tell them to put a ring camera in their bathroom and then see them get bent out of shape about they wouldn’t do that because…
I mean that is a stupid argument and probably does more to hurt your argument then help.
The problem is their arguments are not wrong. Nobody does care about your data. Which makes it so hard to convince people about the dangerous.
Framing “them” as fundamentally different reinforces the mental barrier that your requirements and their requirements are different. Avoid it.
You’d better believe marketing execs and specialists in branding will divide and conquer market segments of apathetic typical people.
Addicts in recover programs can call the general population of non-addicts ‘normies’; people that have been marginalized for neurodivergent thinking often call the mainstream population of neurotypicals ‘normies’ etc.
Gatekeeping by commonly accepted language across diverse circles only serves for your own purity testing instead of focusing on the core issue of how to sell people on exercising their own basic self-interest.
yeah that is definitely the core of the problem
I think certain arguments work, and certain don’t.
I live in a very high trust society, Norway. This has a lot of advantages, but also some downsides.
We trust eachother, our neighbours, our government and our media. Which is fantastic, and well deserved. The government deserves the trust.
This makes it hard for me to make people realize how important privacy is, because they trust organizations with their data.
During COVID, Norway made their own app for tracking who met to prevent the spread. Of all the apps in the world, Norway wanted to push about the least privacy friendly app in the world. This from a country with the highest press freedom and rankings for democracy. Most people though it was fine, because why not? We trust our government.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/norway-covid19-contact-tracing-app-privacy-win/
Luckily someone protested enough, and it got scrapped for something better.
When I try to convince someone I have a couple of angles:
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You trust the government and organizations with your data today. But do you trust the government in 30 years? Because data is forever. The US has changed a lot in a very short time, this can happen here as well
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You have a responsibility for other peoples privacy as well. When you use an app that gets access to all your SMSes and contacts you spy on behalf of companies on people that might need protection. Asylum seekers from other countries for instance.
Something similar happened in Denmark with the new Sundhedloven, which had provisions allowing the government to forcefully isolate people in concentration camps, along with forcefully vaccinating them.
This was of course alarming for those who were in the know, but very few people protested (and the law was subsequently amended), but the general attitude from the public was “it’s not a problem because something like THAT would ever happen in Denmark.” 🤡
We had some emergency law that was almost passed recently. As in it passed the first of two rounds. The second voting round is just a formality, all laws are just passed after the first in practice. Luckily some law professor raised the alarms and it did not pass the second time. So within a couple of hours margin it was stopped.
The law gave the government the ability to force people to do a lot of stuff, work any job at any place in Norway. If you do not comply you could get up to three years in prison. It would not be a problem with the current or any government in the near future, but it is a law. And we can’t have laws that rely on trusting politicians. Because we might have politicians with anti democratic tendencies in the future
This is the same argument against trusting opaque algorithms from proprietary systems (usually billionaire owned). You just don’t know when they’re going to tweak it for their purposes.
The Swedish authorities have been known to mess with the reproductive rights of minorities, didn’t Denmark also meddle in extremely unethical bullshit? Is your comment an obvious reference I’m missing?
This is a VERY interesting perspective - thank you for sharing!
You are lucky in Norway to have that level of trust, but I’d never considered the flip side: that it would create a dangerous apathy about privacy.
Your two angles are great:
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This is so true but for some it is so nebulous, and it countries like the UK (and especially if you are white and not struggling financially) then there is an exceptionalism that creeps into the thinking. Probably because we’ve never been invaded and occupied. I was in Norway last year, and Denmark this year, and no one wants that to happen again. It seems to have shaped thinking a lot - correct me if i’m wrong 😊
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This is a big one - privacy is a collective problem. It’s a team sport. I have had some success with this argument.
What’s very hard is to convey to people just how amazingly powerful and efficient big tech’s profiling models really are. Trillions of computations a minute to keep your creepy digital twin up to date. Most people cannot get their head round the scale of it, and I’m struggling to visualise it for them!
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Convince them to trust open source
While I agree in theory, in practice open source has a similar amount of expected trust as closed source can have in many cases. I use all sorts of open source software without reading the code. I ain’t got time for that.
I can trust that software from a lot of organizations are trustworthy even if it is closed source, but I can’t trust any open source repo without reading the code. I habe to use other ways to evaluate it, is it probable that someone has audited it? Is it popular? Is it recognized as safe and trustworthy? Is the published and finished build the same as the one I would get if I built it myself?
But yes, you can never be 100% certain without open source and auditing it yourself.
I do trust that my travel pass app from a government organization doesn’t install malware / spyware on my phone. I can’t trust a random github repo even if it is open source.
The only source that can be trusted ✊
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I think making it as easy and feature packed as the big commercial apps and services would go a long way.
Right now asking someone to switch to a more private service/app is not only the work of switching over, but also learning an often much more complex system.
Starting by not calling people that don’t know/care about privacy “normies”, and educating them I guess.
Also I’d say start with the “easier” ones, for instance anti-capitalist people are more open to find ways to avoid surveillance capitalism. If enough of these people care and educate their respective circles, eventually all people will care.
Also I’d say start with the “easier” ones, for instance anti-capitalist people are more open to find ways to avoid surveillance capitalism. If enough of these people care and educate their respective circles, eventually all people will care.
And pro-capitalism people should simply avoid being under surveillance of someone who can potentially help their competition with targetted info about them.
I have friends and family who occupy both sides of the political spectrum, so it’s impossible to have just one message that suits both. That’s why I’ve largely avoided politics my whole life…
But tech has become political, so it’s not that easy to avoid anymore 😬
On my website homepage Rebel Tech Alliance.org I try and make it clear that we’re trying to undermine a business model, not a political ideology. But the presence of the word ‘capitalism’ in surveillance capitalism does trigger some people to start talking politics.
I’ve noticed many people tend to look for alternatives when their mainstream apps are either temporarily down or become greedy.
I remember a few years ago Meta servers were down which resulted in my whole family and some friends at least partially moving over to Signal. Now it’s important that the alternative has at least the basic features people want. Most people are not ubernerds like us willing to sacrafice GIFs, emoji’s or whatever and would switch back once they realize it’s missing features.
For instance, I’ve noticed people becoming increasingly frustrated with Windows but won’t switch to Linux due to missing program or game support.
So ultimately I think the focus should be for privacy-respecting apps to be feature-complete. It’s much easier to convince someone to switch if there’s a reason to stay.
This probably means sacrificing on security features but I don’t think the goal should be for everyone to be on Qubes OS and SimpleX. Rather having at least basic online privacy and the ability to remove data on demand.
Anyone want to join my privacy team? I’m trying out for the 2026 Olympics.
Same brooo🤣🤣
I have a feeling a whole bunch of people are about to start caring, when they see normal things being used as excuses to arrest friends, family, colleagues.
This depends on your country though. America sure.
I’m in the UK and there’s a feeling amongst some that “we’re next” if we don’t curb the rise of the far right.
The Reform party’s victories here this week are another alarm bell.
I’d say those some are spot on. Governments love the "look what that country is doing!” while doing the same or worse, surreptitiously. Prestidigitation, really.
By the time we hit this spot, historically, it is too late and fuckening will proceed as scheduled.
I can’t get on board with doomerism anymore. It’s giving up our power and either we have it, reclaim if or don’t. I’m seeing a lot of denial, "oh look a squirrel!” and hopelessness. None of these serve us.
I surely aint giving up! There is but so much a single person can do but they should be doing it. But most people can’t be bothered to fix their consumption patterns or address privacy in any meaningful way. If a mean person can’t do that, I don’t see any progress.
Either we hit critical mass between gen y and gen z to get something done, or techo lords gonna take over and in the future there won’t be much of any accountability for them.
Oh, I see it too. I’m just a “keep getting up until you can’t” kind of person. Apathy at home and entertainment culture in general serves the money masters well. I’m just wondering if the public will actually move or continue circuses, once the bread is gone.
I can use an sdr to read your water meter and determine how often you go to the bathroom, shower, wash your clothes, and when you’re home and it’s not illegal. I’m allowed to follow you around and take your picture as much as I want to. I can print off as many pictures of you as I want in public and wallpaper my whole house with your face and body, there’s nothing you can do about it. I can do an 8 hour video essay about you and share this with everyone. As long as the info is publicly available (or not in most U.S. states), it’s legal.
You could get charged with stalking.
In my state it’s not stalking if you don’t make any threats. You don’t have an expectation of privacy in public. That’s the argument they use with license plate cameras and other warrantless survelance, tracking, facial recognition, etc.
What moves people is stories of why you should care. Getting these stories highlighted and then providing the solution (or multiple solutions) is a sure way to call people to action.
Devs and marketing then need to have an easy onboarding experience. But if people have a will they will find a way. Just don’t be an AH when they ask stupid questions.
This. You’re so right. It’s stories that move people not facts - I constantly forget this!
I’ve made a note to use the blog to put the messages in story form - case studies.
Thank you for writing that!
Just don’t be an AH when they ask stupid questions.
I got nothing to hide!
People want convinience. You’ll never get people to do it, unless it personally affects them. Realisticly, you can convert a few.
But most importantly. It shouldnt be that hard to have privacy. THATS the problem. People shouldnt need to do alot of things to get it.
Do something about the problem (political, legally change privacy laws) instead of every single person.
But I know that can be near impossible depending of where you live.
Do something about the problem (political, legally change privacy laws) instead of every single person.
Anyone expecting the daddy state to help them here is out right delulu.
Privacy is just one battle ground of the class war. Once we lose here, it is a wrap. We will exist in a fish bowl under ruling class with limited if any accountability.
It seems most people are fine with it as of now. The longer critical mass keeps these cavalier attitudes about their personal freedom, the more likely we are all gonna get cooked.
At some point, we will hit a point of no return.
I guess some people are fine to be enslaved into a cycle of wage “labor” and consumption without any agency and autonomy.
This is where it depends on country.
EU is making better privacy laws, others are making worse. (yes, I know about the encryption bill in the EU, that has never been voted through. I also know about all the privacy laws that actually work here)
How much privacy does EU law even provide though.
Faceberg transfered whatapps data into us despite it being condition for the buy out deal. Minor fine.
Another fine recently again sun 1b…
So the data is bring traded and exploited. I like that EU is trying to do a thing lol but let’s be real… It ain’t shite in grand scheme of things.
Take care of your own privacy or somebody is gonna do it for you. The “law” ain’t gonna do that, that’s for fucking sure
oh yes, convenience… a big problem when moving from the alternatives.
And I have to acknowlege that I’m an unusual case - I would rather use a less-good service than give my data to a better one. I know most people don’t think like that.
That’s why the alternatives we recommend are usually the zero knowledge encrypted ones, and they need to have a good experience. But privacy by design is sadly not that widely adopted in products. It has been increasing though, but just very slowly.
And about your point to hit the problem when mass change can happen e.g. political, legal - that is more the domain of our friends at other orgs like EFF, noyb, The Citizens etc. But you’re right, that is where change needs to happen. Not easy when the big tech firms lobby so hard and throw money at the problem.
Yeah, they really do throw money around to keep control…
And I know it doesnt help to always say “we need political change” because it’s also an easy escape to just say that.
Im also trying my best moving me and my friends to other platforms, and we shouldnt stop. Be the change.
for the site see if you can reissue the cert or try certbot if u already used certbot try manyally downloading the cert an pointibng to it
The site is hosting by a hosting company - and they assure me that the cert is fine.
If I was self hosting I’d expect these problems, but not with a hosting company.
The only difference with this company is that they do not use any big tech infrastructure - they have their own servers. I wonder if big tech has something they don’t…?
idk for me it doesnt say a error just cannot complete request and https even though connections not secure its quite odd and i can use http for it an it works
really? It works with just http? that is weird.
It suggests to me that the web hosting company we are using don’t know what they’re doing. We’re going to change.
Another wall of text no one will ever read does nothing. Do this: https://lemmy.world/post/21620691 https://lemmy.world/post/20950542
I emailed you, but wanted to reply here that I love this! I don’t have much to add as I’m having the same problem with my own project trying to make privacy easier for people like, say, my friends and family. They have to really WANT it to go through all those inconvenient steps of changing to alternative products. Even getting people invested in changing their app settings is hard enough!
I think the below commenter is right that people will start to care more when they see what’s going to happen with their data under the new administration (in the U.S., at least). We all thought it was a good trade-off for free and cheap products, and soon we may be faced with our data being used to target us personally.
The only thing I can think of is, have you tried sending info about your sites to relevant news outlets, newsletters, etc.? I got a little traction from being mentioned in two newsletters: Cory Doctorow’s newsletter and the DeleteMe newsletter Incognito. I’m planning on mailing out print press copies of my free book later in May…I have a PR friend who will be helping me with that.
OMG your book is amazing! You actually sent me a summary version before, and I’ve just downloaded the full one. I’ll add it to my Calibre library and share with others!
I love that foreword about the town square - “Are we in paradise yet?”
We should work together - you’re right your book covers a lot of the same ground as my website, but just better written and better researched lol
Education.
Threats & intimidation?
Just spitballing here…
