NOTICE:
I realise now that the main problem here was my post on Hexbear, It was shitty and failed to get across my actual views. I still wish I could’ve been allowed to properly discuss it, but I understand the decision to ban me. Looking at my original post, I can very much get why that is ban worthy, even though that wouldn’t be my decision. What happened happened, as much as I’d like to further expand upon my views, I’ll try not to waste your time by trying to explain my views that I fully do not understand, that I’ve developed throughout the process of arguing with people in the comments. I feel silly for making this such a big deal, sorry. You could look through my replies here to see a further expounded on version of this post here. It really boils down to misunderstanding and semantics, I agree with most of the substance of the comments on this post on their face, it is just that often argued in favour of things I didn’t mean to. My view of anti-Semitism boils down to, yes it is present, but it is not systemic. As I already mentioned, you can look through the replies if you want to see more of that
Click here to view the original version of this post
I recently made a post that, according to the moderator which banned me, “conflated Judaism with Zionism”. The post did not in any way conflate Judaism with Zionism, it was me being tired of people trying to center anti-Semitism and over inflate the presence it has in society.
It had an inflammatory title, “I don’t give a shit about anti-Semitism”, which I can get why people would find problematic. But the text if the post was not in any way conflating Zionism with Judaism. I explained the reasons for the rise in anti-Semitism, the genocide the Israeli state is carrying out, and why I am tired of people acting like it is of most importance.
Jewish people are not systemically oppressed, they’ve been integrated into Western society, into whiteness. What has happened to Jewish people and their assimilation is similar to the experience of Italians and the Irish (in America). There will be no Holocaust 2.0, Jewish people in NYC are not at threat of being lynched. The victim mentality and the centering of the Jewish experience only plays into Jewish supremacism, Zionism. Jews are not special, it shouldn’t be controversial to say that.
I’ll repeat the analogy I made in the original post: Imagine if your main concern was the safety of German minorities after they did the Holocaust. It’s completely ridiculous and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I suspect the main reason for the “conflating Zionism with Judaism” part is me saying most Jewish people support Israel, which Is a fact. I pointed this out as a reason for the (over-exaggerated) rise in anti-Semitism. I did not even once state anything in opposition to Judaism and Jewishness in in of itself, only gave reasons to the generalisations. I can forgive someone taking this as somehow conflating the two in the context of, I repeat, the inflammatory title, but what I said wasn’t in any way remotely that.
To quote Prof. Finkelstein, on when he asked his mother if she had ever met a decent German:
I remembered one German soldier, he had a kind of a guilty look on his face.
That was all she could remember—one. So it doesn’t surprise me that she loathed all Germans.
This is what I was getting at. A common response to seeing a genocide committed by Jews is, albeit irrationally, to loathe all Jews. Just like, for a time, people hated all Germans. To center the hate towards Germans in the post war years would be seen as ridiculous, rightfully so. Even more ridiculous is to imply this will somehow transfer into violent lynchings.
People like us should know that Zionism and Nazism are not contradictory ideologies, they can coexist and work together (and have historically). So why (I am referencing the replies to my post, not the moderator who banned me) is it that people think Elon throwing a sieg heil is a sign of an imminent Holocaust in the USA? The main donor of Trump is a Jewish Zionist. I repeat, Jews are not at threat. It is ridiculous and, as I already said, plays into Jewish supremacy.
In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion. I am sure if I had an actual conversation on the topic with the moderator who banned me, I’d either be able to convince them of the content of the post, or have my own mind changed.
Bans shouldn’t just be thrown around like that, especially considering the content of my post. The text giving reason to the ban was a single sentence, it did not touch on the content of the post. Just “conflating Judaism with Zionism”, that’s it. No specific line of text was noted.
At last I’d like to add that the post was primarily in response to liberal Zionists like Owen Jones and other such figures, not to fellow leftists. Figures who disingenuously over inflate the importance of anti-Semitism, its presence and general effect.
I fully agree that anti-Semitism usually leads right back into far-right ideologies that are in staunch opposition to us, but that is not what I was trying to argue against in the post.
Click here to view the post on Hexbear
You already admitted your title sucked, but your title alone is worthy of a ban imo. Idk about permanent if you’re willing to to take some criticism, but writing off the rest of your post as going “I guess the title was a little inflammatory” tells me you’re more interested in justifying your pov.
It sucks in without the context I provided here. It was, as I said here, made in the context of liberal Zionist, regular Zionist and “pro-Palestinian” people unnecessarily centering anti-Semitism when it is, realistically, fringe
Can I ask you something here? It seems to be a sticking point for you, this idea of anti-semitism being fringe. If that impression is correct, why is it a sticking point for you and what do you feel is important about insisting on it? Because I can get not liking how zionists co-opt, but taking it a step further, to insisting in such a way that makes it sound like anti-semitism is a non-issue, seems to be what is the crux of the problem here.
My main argument here, that I failed to properly portray in the post on Hexbear and which I probably could’ve expanded on further here, is that anti-Semitism does not take the form of state repression. Anti-Semitism exists in the same sense that anti-white racism exists. There may be some who genuinely don’t like white people, though that does not translate in any meaningful way into the machinations of the state. There is no institutionalised anti-white sentiment, same applies to Jewish people. This is not me saying anti-Semitism doesn’t exist, it does. People do call Jews bad things, slurs, or otherwise. But racism, more generally, is not individual incidents of hate crimes, it is the wielding of state power to repress one group or another, a group which is made to be racially inferior.
I wouldn’t want it to be a sticking point myself. I am trying to, in some vain hope of being unbanned, explain myself properly. I would’ve liked if I was just made a punching bag in the posts comments, then moved on, but I was banned and now I feel the need to defend myself.
Anti-Semitism exists in the same sense that anti-white racism exists. There may be some who genuinely don’t like white people, though that does not translate in any meaningful way into the machinations of the state.
I see. I can see how you’d arrive at comparing them, but I think we should make clear here that whiteness is a distinctly “fake” thing. That the reason anti-white racism is not taken seriously isn’t just because there is a lack of a state oppressing white people, it’s also because whiteness derives from white supremacy as a construct. There is no whiteness without white supremacy. But there is Judaism without zionism.
We can also contrast on the fact that Jewish people have had historical periods where they faced mass discrimination enabled by a state and white people never have and by definition, can’t. People can be prejudiced against those who are considered white because of the harm that the institution of whiteness does and the people who act in its name, but there is no threat of a state deciding white people are a minority people to scapegoat. There is still the possibility of Jewish people being victimized in this way again.
This I think is an important distinction that may be part of the problem, if you land on the wrong side of it.
Sympathy for your loss. I hope they unban you (don’t make the same mistake though, you have to be clear you’re talking of ‘anti-semitism’ in relation to Israel)
If you’re talking about Israel, I’m sure they don’t give a shit
In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion.
Really? Let’s see the comments
plinky (polite)
i mean, if they support existence of isntreal, they are nazis, and why are you arguing with nazis?
if they don’t then you can talk.that’s leaving aside that anti-semitism is socialism of fools and things of that nature.
Le_Wokisme (not polite)
you should always give a shit about nazis because they came for communists and trans people first you fucking bellend
Dirt_Owl (not polite)
Nah, fuck off. Jews are still targeted by actual anti-semites. The Trump admin are open Nazis saluting on stage. Right now they hate arabs more than Jews, but mark my words, If they ever succeed in their Muslim genocide, you bet the Jews are next on the block. That’s how fascism works. Conflating all Jews with Zionism is stupid and borderline anti-Semitic imo.
tocopherol (polite yet somewhat addresses your argument)
Israel exists in the name of Zionism, not Judaism. We should care about antisemitism because it’s a scapegoat used by fascists, many still push the idea that a Jewish cabal runs the world behind the scenes. If more fascists get power we could see more violence and dehumanizing rhetoric about Jewish people. I think it’s useful to push back against any sort of widespread bigotry, and there is still widespread bigotry against Jewish people.
Further, I don’t believe Jewish people are integrated into ‘whiteness’. Many could pass but as a group they are currently seen as useful allies to Christian Zionists and the western right, they will be thrown under the bus when the time comes. According to the prevailing western fascist doctrine they are still impure non-whites
imogen_underscore (unsure)
not sure about this one
So far you got only 2 unpolite and uninformed comments…
Glass half full or half empty is the question here. Hexbear is usually really nice and I didn’t expect my post to be received the way it was. I understand the original post was bad, but I wish is would’ve been given a bit of a chance. I understand the mods choice, but I feel it was done out of misunderstanding. I didn’t portray my views properly at all leading to people to think I was saying things I really didn’t mean to. I improved on it here and could’ve done better still as I find myself in the replies here. Don’t wanna drag you into a long argument, don’t feel obliged to respond
Request [to be unbanned] declined by simple majority vote.
Reason: Anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity on hexbear. User in question, citing the post linked, chosen of his own free will to state that he understands the reason why he was banned but considers the decision as unreasonable instead of simply apologizing for making anti-semetic [sic] remarks on hexbear.
Welp, I tried.
ETA: I actually kind of regret doing this, because it brought up unwanted memories of when I tried to politely and compassionately appeal bans on other social media only to stay banned anyway. I know that that sounds like a trivial inconvenience but memories like these can sometimes visibly inhibit my mood for hours.
About most Jews being Zionists, I don’t know why they threw a fit over that. That’s a factual statement, most Jews ARE Zionists. I mean, almost half of all Jews globally live in the settler project.
That shouldn’t make anyone reconsider their anti-zionist stance, because genocide, ethnostates, fascism, and colonialism don’t magically become better bc it’s not white supremacy flavored. To me, I accept that most Jews are Zionists. That’s not going to make me support killing babies and blocking aid, bc I don’t care what most Jews think. If something is wrong, it’s wrong no matter the race.
This is why people keep getting called anti-Semitic, they’re banking on you caring that you’re going against the wishes of a majority of Jews which makes you (in their eyes) an anti-semite. If you don’t care and tell them “no matter the race genocide is wrong” they’ll learn to use another argument. Don’t budge, don’t let them use their Jewishness (or someone else’s) as a bludgeon against your values.
Unironically being concerned with being called an anti-semite will only associate Zionism with Judaism/Jewishness. That’s when actual anti-Semitism starts to rise. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the take that isntrael controls America (and not the other way around) across countless social media sites. Whenever you correct them, they bring up AIPAC, they bring up how people can get deported for bigotry* against Jews but not any other race, the various wars & operations in SWANA for isntrael, etc.
They’re drawing horrible conclusions from actual facts, the days of “Jewish cabals are secretly ruling the US illuminati style!!1!” are gone, now they bring up things that are actually happening or have actually happened.
I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic and doesn’t want to call out/ is very uncomfortable with calling out the mistakes that marginalized people can make. I think you should take the ban as a blessing, there’s nothing to go back to except death threats and mods that want to ignore the user base.
*Bigotry here is any criticism against isntrael. They actually do not care about conspiracy theories and lies against Jews. They have no intention to protect Jews and Jewishness outside of isntrael support.
I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic
Pot calling the kettle black…
Yeah, we don’t lose our entire instance over abject moderation failures or have cult of personality mods that hand out death threats… Not really. Try again.
What are you referring to with “cult of personality mods that hand out death threats”?
Edit: No, seriously, there’s clearly a history here and I don’t want to be kept in the dark.
One of the mods before being removed/stepping down (don’t remember name) was gifting out death-threats to a user. There is two mods off the top of my head I can think of that has cult of personalities around them. I believe one of them has been removed or kept as a mod.
At the same time, they are a friendly instance. I’m not here to start drama with them. When brought into comparison though, I’m gonna be honest.
The primary issue here is in the broad-brushing and lack of care in the post (e.g. the title), which makes it easy to leave impressions of antisemitism. In your spoiler quote, you say things along the lines of, “if a state that exists in your name commits genocide, of course you will be hated”. While you are not explicitly saying so, the sentiment here has a rhetorical next step: “so antisemitism is valid and correct”. I’m not saying you believe this, but it would feel natural to have seen that written next by the flow of the rhetoric. The post is playing with being on the edge of antisemitic language and possibly crosses that border depending on how you interpret it. I don’t think that’s a very effective way of communicating in addition to the possibilities for causing harm.
Contrast to something like this: “Zionism is perhaps the greatest purveyor of antisemitism on the planet by engaging in ethnonationalist genocide and conflating everything they do with Judaism. In addition to the inherent antisemitism of associating race hate mass violence with Judaism, it inspires antisemitism among those who sympathize with the victims, as there has always been a real risk that those sympathizers take “Israel” at their word in conflating their project with Judaism. Even just adopting and then negating Zionist language can lead to problematic statements.”
Basically the same sentiments, but communicated in a way that is careful about how it is presented.
I would also disagree that Jewish people, including Ashkenazi Jewish people, are fully integrated into whiteness. They are partially integrated. Most can pass as white basically any time they want to by just not saying certain things. A lot of (most?) white people are going to treat them as white, as will others. But there is still a reactionary group that others Jewish people, follows and maintains antisemitic mythologies, and participates to one degree or another in ensuring there is always a bit of a threat in the background. In the most reactionary circles this does lead to overy antisemitic actions and violence, but the soft reactionaries and edgelords help to pipeline them. There is a dual character of whiteness and Jewishness for Ashkenazi Jews in white supremacist societies and which is dominant various regionally and on an individual basis. So on one hand most Jewish people in the US face very little discrimination due to being mostly assimilated into whiteness. On the other hand, there is still antisemitic violence and rumbles of more if reactionaries become more powerful and numerous and.
I would agree that antisemitism is not as common or extreme of an issue as islamophobia or anti-blackness and that Zionist organizations lie about what constitutes antisemitism, thus diluting it. But your thoughts that overstate Jewish assimilation into white supremacy may be a case of reacting to and negating Zionist framings too simply and on their terms. Zionist organizations call every single expression of sympathy for Palestinians antisemitic. Those organizations are lying in support of an active genocidal ethnonationalist project. But they also list real cases of antisemitism that should not be dismissed.
Re: moderation, well it’s a friendly socialist instance so I don’t want to exactly start a fight about it, but I would say they are quick to ban and bad at conflict resolution and explanations. They tend to describe this in terms of protecting their members, but I think it is mostly a consequence of having basically zero irl organizing experience and therefore making the mistakes of young organizers. Having no interest in listening to or guiding disagreement and being quick to drop a hammer is one of those mistakes. Communists grow out of this if they are self-critical after joining and leaving (or watching implode) a few organizations. At the same time, you should consider that your post was fairly flippant, inconsiderate, and flirted with antisemitism, so I wouldn’t say they made a greater error.
