Europeans are so racist, one facet of the civil rights movement in the US was black GIs being treated as humans by europeans during the war and then returning to the jim crow US. There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
Denmark forcibly sterilizing Greenland Inuit women, the general treatment of the Romani people, Brexiters crying about immigrants, oh hey look things are getting worse for black people, Zwarte Piet, golliwog dolls, the racism adjacent to Islamophobia…
It generally looks different in the US because a) the population is way less homogenous so different ethnic groups can both form distinct cultures and are more likely to interact with other groups and b) the core issues are baked into every facet of our history and fixing all of the lingering effects means actually facing and discussing all of it. This is complicated by a sizeable portion that are perfectly happy with a segregated society. We fought a war with ourselves about it and didn’t actually fix anything in that process. (I suspect that a great many Europeans are also happy with a segregated society, and as long as that segregation is along country or even village borders they can pretend it’s not the same kind of bigotry)
There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
Also, since you mention Scandinavia you forgot the Sámi and the use of eugenics in Sweden well into the 60s…
The use of exaggerated black features to depict a servant that originated as a slave demon has nothing to do with racism?
This is the kind of stuff this post is about. It’s not that “Americans talk about race too much” it’s that y’all don’t talk about the problematic stuff enough so you don’t even recognize it.
Zwarte Piet is 100% a slave with all the traditional symbolism around the character. The fact that people call their role ‘helper’ or ‘assistant’ really does not change anything about the historical background of “zwarte Piet”
We are basically portraying a white man with black slaves as a great thing, and celebrate it. Combine that with the fact that it’s mainly directed at kids who are very easily influenced in such regards… It’s a bad tradition.
I know that for 99% of the people this probably isn’t the message they want to send, but even when not malicious it will influence the way children look at the world.
Why between the things that are genuinely bad (racism) you mixed in religion? Religion is a choice, and if you choose to believe bizzare fairy tales, I’m going to see you as as mentally challenged person.
Discrimination? I said “see you as”, which does not involve any real action, it’s just my thoughts about religion in general, does not matter which one
I never said I discriminate anyone. I almost never bring up religion in real life and I’m not racist. All these are wild assumptions. I’ll repeat my original comment - religion is a choice, it should not be put in the same sentence/context as racism based on someone’s skin color or ethnicity - something you didn’t choose or can’t change. Me shitting on islam or christianity is nowhere on the same level as hating all brown or white people. I’m sure there are many that see Arabic person and assume they’re highly religious, but for me that’s BS because I know too many ex-muslims
The availability of paid work in Europe is increasingly low. For instance, approximately only 5,300 labour roles are offered to 12,500 prisoners in Greece, while in Italy there is only one inmate out of five who is entitled to paid work.[21]
And before you nitpick. Unpaid work (like helping in the kitchen) translates into reduced sentences and isn’t common at all.
Ok, let me specify a little more, paid prison labour is really common in Germany, to the point I’d say almost all prisoners are working. I’m not talking about working in the kitchen here, I’m talking about cheap labour for private companies, usually manufacturing.
Race isn’t even real. Science stops before then, and maybe you can get vague ethnic groups that can be mostly self defined.
We all live in bastardized and fragile versions of “civility”. None of them are perfect, some of them are worse, and the usa is a big place, please don’t generalize and group us all together.
Pretending your civilization is superior is… Probably something you should be cautious of.
Oh ffs, we border Africa and Asia you absolute moppet. There are far greater divisions within Europe than skin colour. France has battled England for longer than the US has existed. Denmark still has a law that allows the Danes to clobber Swedes crossing a frozen Öresund. Half of Europe was once ruled by an inbred caste of Austrians. While all of this happening, there were other races around and the peoples had commercial and social relationships. Almost the entirety of the Iberian peninsula was at some point populated by North Africans and the Roman empire was once divided between East and West.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
This debate about who is worse, is fueled more by personal patriotism and propaganda than any actual facts.
America is not “better” than Europe, and Europe is not better than America. Both have done terrible, inhuman things in their history, and it’s not a matter of who is righter or wronger.
American had slavery and the Native American genocide, but Europe had Belgium doing insanely awful behavior in The Congo, Germany starting two World Wars, Great Britain oppressing people in every corner of the planet, and lots of other abuses of various people by various countries, including many countries ferociously oppressing their OWN people. Europe and the rest of the world had the Vikings, the Romans, the Sea People, the Gauls, the Huns, the Khans, the Crusades, and countless other warrior races/nations that slaughtered as many of their neighbors as they could find. America may have committed some egregious sins, but they’ve only been around for 250 years. The rest of the world has been killing each other for many CENTURIES. And yet somehow, America is the ONLY bad guy?
Every single nation on this planet has their own historical shame. NOBODY has the moral high ground here, so we should all stop acting superior, accept that all humans are horribly flawed, and just shut the fuck up, stop blaming everybody else, and try to clean up our own countries and create a better future. But first we have to acknowledge our own pasts, and stop blaming other countries for the same things we’re all guilty of.
Can’t forget Portugal started the transatlantic slave trade and was followed by Spain, Britain, NL, and France.
Yes, the very same transatlantic slave trade that the Spanish, British, Dutch, and French rely on for their feelings of superiority over the US. Can’t help but notice those are all European countries.
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Not sure how “we’ve hated each other for stupider reasons for hundreds of years” is your lede but, write what you know, they say.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
*myopic*. So true about the stolen land. Irrelevant to the discussion but true. Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Written like someone “educated” in the US. If only there was a discipline, I don’t know, like history, that taught thousands of examples of exactly that…
Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
It was also a European who killed Hitler, so it evens out at the end of the day.
No, Americans are not Nazis, SOME Americans are MAGAs, which hold similar beliefs.
It’s not that MAGAs are Nazis, or vice versa, it’s that they are both comprised of the same subset of psycho/sociopathic humanity that exists at any given time in history. The letters are just labels.
People have been people for as long as there have been people. The same personality archetypes we see today, have always existed. That includes a type of person who despises much of what they see around them, and decides to destroy that society, and create their own, and FORCE everybody else to go along with it.
In a healthy society, those people are sidelined in some way or another (that’s a whole separate book), but occasionally those people find cracks in their society, gather together, and gain power. They were called Nazis in the mid-20th century, and they’re called MAGAs today, and they’ll be called something else next century, but they’re all from the same poisoned well.
America may be able to purge MAGA from their government, but they can never purge that personality archetype from society. Even if you could somehow identify and kill every one, the next generation would just spawn a new set of political psychopaths. Instead, societies have to recognize and acknowledge that these people always exist among us, and are constantly trying to take our society from us, and we need to have strategies to resist them, and keep them from power.
In America, they had the opportunity to prohibit any MAGA from holding office under Amendment 14/Section 3, but the Biden administration decided to lead with weakness, and didn’t use it, allowing MAGA to rise and regain power. That is the sign of a weak, sick society, and unfortunately America seems a long ways from actually addressing their most important issues.
While the rest of the world waits for America to properly get its shit together, they all have to be much more vigilant and pro-active in defending their own Democracies, which are currently undergoing the same active attack as America. Otherwise, they’ll end up in exactly the same position as America, and the entire world will come under authoritarian rule.
This is not a historical phase, these people are ALWAYS with us, but they only emerge occasionally when the conditions are right. It is our responsibility as citizens to carefully craft our societies so that those conditions don’t take hold, and allow the destructive element of society emerge and take power.
You are being downvoted for stating an uncomfortable truth.
Europeans don’t like it when you interrupt their tirade against America, to ask them about Belgium in the Congo, or Great Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, and others oppressing their colonies across the world, or operating the slave trade that fueled early America, or destroying the Central American civilizations for their gold and jewels, or fomenting countless wars, all happening for centuries before America was even born, but it’s all America’s fault.
The simple truth is that all governments are shitty, and we all have very uncomfortable histories. Acknowledge it, teach it, and commit to not repeating it. That’s the best strategy. Arguing over which psychopathic society is better, is stupid.
Au contraire, I would say hating someone for their beliefs is a much better reason. It is something they have control over and can change and then there’s no reason to hate them anymore. I would assume people on Lemmy would understand this as it not just applies to religion but also to politics. Or would you say punching black people is better than punching Nazis?
Europeans are so racist, one facet of the civil rights movement in the US was black GIs being treated as humans by europeans during the war and then returning to the jim crow US. There is absolutely racism in Europe, as a continent. However, most US commenters here are conflating being less politically correct than the US with the de facto batshit insane institutionalized racism that still prevails stateside. Call me when EU prisons are used as slave camps (populated overwhelmingly by black people) or we have a para-military neo-nazi force arresting people because of the colour of their skin. Meanwhile black people get access to healthcare in the EU and have higher life expectancy at birth within the EU than the progressive polite US of A…
Denmark forcibly sterilizing Greenland Inuit women, the general treatment of the Romani people, Brexiters crying about immigrants, oh hey look things are getting worse for black people, Zwarte Piet, golliwog dolls, the racism adjacent to Islamophobia…
It generally looks different in the US because a) the population is way less homogenous so different ethnic groups can both form distinct cultures and are more likely to interact with other groups and b) the core issues are baked into every facet of our history and fixing all of the lingering effects means actually facing and discussing all of it. This is complicated by a sizeable portion that are perfectly happy with a segregated society. We fought a war with ourselves about it and didn’t actually fix anything in that process. (I suspect that a great many Europeans are also happy with a segregated society, and as long as that segregation is along country or even village borders they can pretend it’s not the same kind of bigotry)
Also, since you mention Scandinavia you forgot the Sámi and the use of eugenics in Sweden well into the 60s…
What about “Zwarte Piet”? That has nothing to do with racism.
The use of exaggerated black features to depict a servant that originated as a slave demon has nothing to do with racism?
This is the kind of stuff this post is about. It’s not that “Americans talk about race too much” it’s that y’all don’t talk about the problematic stuff enough so you don’t even recognize it.
That would be Speciesism just to be pedantic. But no, it really doesn’t and shows a poor understanding of the historical background of “zwarte Piet”.
Zwarte Piet is 100% a slave with all the traditional symbolism around the character. The fact that people call their role ‘helper’ or ‘assistant’ really does not change anything about the historical background of “zwarte Piet”
We are basically portraying a white man with black slaves as a great thing, and celebrate it. Combine that with the fact that it’s mainly directed at kids who are very easily influenced in such regards… It’s a bad tradition.
I know that for 99% of the people this probably isn’t the message they want to send, but even when not malicious it will influence the way children look at the world.
Why between the things that are genuinely bad (racism) you mixed in religion? Religion is a choice, and if you choose to believe bizzare fairy tales, I’m going to see you as as mentally challenged person.
Nobody asks anyone’s religeous opinions before acting in a rascist manner. First step is profiling (including race and clothing).
Also you make it sound like mentally challenged people deserve to be discriminated against
Nobody? I feel like majority does.
Discrimination? I said “see you as”, which does not involve any real action, it’s just my thoughts about religion in general, does not matter which one
People are bigoted against Arab and North African people based on the assumption of their religion, an assumption made from their physical appearance.
So am I not allowed to dislike religion because it’s origins are Arabic? What a stupid mental gymnastic. What about Christianity and Europeans?
Disliking religion is fine. Discriminating against Moroccan people on the assumption that they are Muslim is not.
I never said I discriminate anyone. I almost never bring up religion in real life and I’m not racist. All these are wild assumptions. I’ll repeat my original comment - religion is a choice, it should not be put in the same sentence/context as racism based on someone’s skin color or ethnicity - something you didn’t choose or can’t change. Me shitting on islam or christianity is nowhere on the same level as hating all brown or white people. I’m sure there are many that see Arabic person and assume they’re highly religious, but for me that’s BS because I know too many ex-muslims
But I’m talking about social trends across Europe, not you.
Is prison labour only slavery if the prisoners are black people? Because prison labour is common in Europe.
Where did you read that prison labour is common in Europe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paid_prison_labour
And before you nitpick. Unpaid work (like helping in the kitchen) translates into reduced sentences and isn’t common at all.
It also doesn’t matter what colour their skin is.
Ok, let me specify a little more, paid prison labour is really common in Germany, to the point I’d say almost all prisoners are working. I’m not talking about working in the kitchen here, I’m talking about cheap labour for private companies, usually manufacturing.
When people of color make up more than 0.02% of the population, we’ll be glad to see those humanistic policies and programs upheld.
That figure for France is approx 500-1000 times higher than your bullshit made up number ;)
Even higher including overseas territories
Colonial invasion is not the defense you think it is.
I’m not endorsing France holding onto Guyana et al. Just pointing out that the figure is that high even just in the mainland.
Also higher when only focusing on the capital city.
Colour of skin =/= race.
I’ll give you a pass because you’re usanian and you guys exist in a bastardized version of civilised society.
Race isn’t even real. Science stops before then, and maybe you can get vague ethnic groups that can be mostly self defined.
We all live in bastardized and fragile versions of “civility”. None of them are perfect, some of them are worse, and the usa is a big place, please don’t generalize and group us all together.
Pretending your civilization is superior is… Probably something you should be cautious of.
Yeah. It’s just that we have the history and problems (and some solutions) you don’t. It’s not necessarily because you’re better people, is it.
So you’re enjoying not having to deal with either. You think it’s pretty great. There are a bunch of racists here who 100% agree.
Oh ffs, we border Africa and Asia you absolute moppet. There are far greater divisions within Europe than skin colour. France has battled England for longer than the US has existed. Denmark still has a law that allows the Danes to clobber Swedes crossing a frozen Öresund. Half of Europe was once ruled by an inbred caste of Austrians. While all of this happening, there were other races around and the peoples had commercial and social relationships. Almost the entirety of the Iberian peninsula was at some point populated by North Africans and the Roman empire was once divided between East and West.
Nobody thinks we’re better people, it’s just that the entire globe agrees you’re not good people and are educated to have the miopic view typical of a place that thinks they are better than everyone else while conveniently ignoring they’re living on stolen land from a wealth of genocided native peoples.
This debate about who is worse, is fueled more by personal patriotism and propaganda than any actual facts.
America is not “better” than Europe, and Europe is not better than America. Both have done terrible, inhuman things in their history, and it’s not a matter of who is righter or wronger.
American had slavery and the Native American genocide, but Europe had Belgium doing insanely awful behavior in The Congo, Germany starting two World Wars, Great Britain oppressing people in every corner of the planet, and lots of other abuses of various people by various countries, including many countries ferociously oppressing their OWN people. Europe and the rest of the world had the Vikings, the Romans, the Sea People, the Gauls, the Huns, the Khans, the Crusades, and countless other warrior races/nations that slaughtered as many of their neighbors as they could find. America may have committed some egregious sins, but they’ve only been around for 250 years. The rest of the world has been killing each other for many CENTURIES. And yet somehow, America is the ONLY bad guy?
Every single nation on this planet has their own historical shame. NOBODY has the moral high ground here, so we should all stop acting superior, accept that all humans are horribly flawed, and just shut the fuck up, stop blaming everybody else, and try to clean up our own countries and create a better future. But first we have to acknowledge our own pasts, and stop blaming other countries for the same things we’re all guilty of.
Can’t forget Portugal started the transatlantic slave trade and was followed by Spain, Britain, NL, and France.
Yes, the very same transatlantic slave trade that the Spanish, British, Dutch, and French rely on for their feelings of superiority over the US. Can’t help but notice those are all European countries.
Nothing wrong with clobbering Swedes crossing the Øresund.
Wow you border areas very different from you? That’s gotta be a great source of societal change huh.
Not sure how “we’ve hated each other for stupider reasons for hundreds of years” is your lede but, write what you know, they say.
*myopic*. So true about the stolen land. Irrelevant to the discussion but true. Hey I heard you guys literally were the Nazis, is that true?
Written like someone “educated” in the US. If only there was a discipline, I don’t know, like history, that taught thousands of examples of exactly that…
It was also a European who killed Hitler, so it evens out at the end of the day.
also some Europeans were, and am*ricans currently are Nazis
No, Americans are not Nazis, SOME Americans are MAGAs, which hold similar beliefs.
It’s not that MAGAs are Nazis, or vice versa, it’s that they are both comprised of the same subset of psycho/sociopathic humanity that exists at any given time in history. The letters are just labels.
People have been people for as long as there have been people. The same personality archetypes we see today, have always existed. That includes a type of person who despises much of what they see around them, and decides to destroy that society, and create their own, and FORCE everybody else to go along with it.
In a healthy society, those people are sidelined in some way or another (that’s a whole separate book), but occasionally those people find cracks in their society, gather together, and gain power. They were called Nazis in the mid-20th century, and they’re called MAGAs today, and they’ll be called something else next century, but they’re all from the same poisoned well.
America may be able to purge MAGA from their government, but they can never purge that personality archetype from society. Even if you could somehow identify and kill every one, the next generation would just spawn a new set of political psychopaths. Instead, societies have to recognize and acknowledge that these people always exist among us, and are constantly trying to take our society from us, and we need to have strategies to resist them, and keep them from power.
In America, they had the opportunity to prohibit any MAGA from holding office under Amendment 14/Section 3, but the Biden administration decided to lead with weakness, and didn’t use it, allowing MAGA to rise and regain power. That is the sign of a weak, sick society, and unfortunately America seems a long ways from actually addressing their most important issues.
While the rest of the world waits for America to properly get its shit together, they all have to be much more vigilant and pro-active in defending their own Democracies, which are currently undergoing the same active attack as America. Otherwise, they’ll end up in exactly the same position as America, and the entire world will come under authoritarian rule.
This is not a historical phase, these people are ALWAYS with us, but they only emerge occasionally when the conditions are right. It is our responsibility as citizens to carefully craft our societies so that those conditions don’t take hold, and allow the destructive element of society emerge and take power.
Remind me, which African colonies did Americans own into the 1950s.
I can tell you which European ones existed…
I can name you few banana republics well into the 2000s. Shit, you’re trying to do it again in Venezuela RIGHT NOW!
You are being downvoted for stating an uncomfortable truth.
Europeans don’t like it when you interrupt their tirade against America, to ask them about Belgium in the Congo, or Great Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, and others oppressing their colonies across the world, or operating the slave trade that fueled early America, or destroying the Central American civilizations for their gold and jewels, or fomenting countless wars, all happening for centuries before America was even born, but it’s all America’s fault.
The simple truth is that all governments are shitty, and we all have very uncomfortable histories. Acknowledge it, teach it, and commit to not repeating it. That’s the best strategy. Arguing over which psychopathic society is better, is stupid.
“Raise your hand if you can name a Belgian colony in Afri… actually nevermind…”
Interesting, why aren’t there any statues of this guy, or a day in his honour? Unless there something you’re neglecting to mention lol.
Are you saying hating people based on their skin colour is a better reason than hating them for trying to take away your land?
Well, it’s at least more concrete than hating them for worshiping a slightly different imaginary sky being.
Au contraire, I would say hating someone for their beliefs is a much better reason. It is something they have control over and can change and then there’s no reason to hate them anymore. I would assume people on Lemmy would understand this as it not just applies to religion but also to politics. Or would you say punching black people is better than punching Nazis?
Jolly, I can feel the americaness oozing from the screen. They say ignorance is bliss but this doesn’t seem very blissful to me.
Godspeed my USA friends and strap in - you are about find out so much in the next couple of decades.