The number of examples I have seen of people being told to shut up about their lived experiences with sexual abuse in the past 24 hours on this platform is deeply disturbing.
I am calling on y’all to take a deep breath and listen to women for once. There is a time and place for tone policing and it’s never the very minute a woman speaks up.
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I haven’t once seen that on this platform, you and I must travel very different communities.
happy for you man
Do you have any examples?
That links back to this thread for me
yeah i put all the external links in one comment here in case the mods need to nuke me due to brigading. you can also scroll to my reply to KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
The comments you linked to are now removed, I think. It might be useful to have archive.org or archive.is archive them next time.
I’m really glad I haven’t seen any posts like that here on Lemmy but that sounds really awful. :/
And I completely agree with your thought and intention but I still have to nitpick about:
There is a time and place for tone policing and it’s _never_ the very minute a woman speaks up.
Of course it’s not never. Just like with men, women are not infallible and can do shit.
I know you’re (hopefully) not literally meaning it like that, but I thought it’s still noteworthy.thanks for your kind words! and you are correct; i am using strong language there that should not be applied literally, though i do stand by the sentiment.
to be more precise, “There is a time and place for tone policing and incredible care should be taken that it is not done to silence or speak over any person’s expression of lived experience, so as not to discourage people who have found the courage to speak up.”
People “don’t want to listen” because the moment anyone speaks out against the generalizations, it becomes personal attacks against them. “you are part of the problem if you don’t immediately agree with everything I say.” That’s not to say that someone is not valid for the way they feel after experiencing something traumatic like SA and having hesitation associating with or being around men, but the accusations of being the problem towards people who are innocent make people not want to support you. It’s also very “only my feelings matter” when it starts sounding like I shouldn’t be anywhere in the remote vicinity of or exist because I might be making a woman uncomfortable.
Once when I was in high school I was in the classroom alone waiting for class to start, minding my own business and not paying any attention to anyone else. A girl walked in and told me that I looked like I wanted to kill her. I didn’t even look in her direction. How dare I be quiet and mind my own business, I made her feel uncomfortable.
It’s also funny that people are saying “y’all always have to make it about you, it’s not about you so what you think doesn’t matter.” Yeah how dare I have feelings and be offended that other people make generalizations about me and start saying I’m part of the problem.
Absolutely not.
The people “speaking out against the generalizations” need to find their own space and time to do so, not to do it in direct replies to women who are speaking up about a very personal and invasive topic.
It’s an exact parallel to those who screamed “All Lives Matter” in response to BLM.
There are inumerable comment sections for men to explore and express the negative qualities of the patriarchy in their lives, !mensliberation@lemmy.ca being one I have seen that seems positive. But that space is not to be held the moment and place women begin to talk about their own experiences.
None of the situations I was talking about involved direct replies to women talking about their own experiences. Everything I’ve seen has essentially been “I’d choose the bear and you should feel ashamed.” If there are people making those kinds of comments in reply to women speaking about their experience and how they feel, I would agree with you that it is not acceptable. But 90% of what I see is blanket accusations or false dilemmas placing some viewpoint on me that I do not hold.
And in a way it does resemble “all lives matter.” But when there are people here directly saying that all men should be ashamed, that they are not safe to be around, and I have seen people saying in these threads that all men are rapists, it seems a little hard to see how that would make anyone understand or sympathize with the people making these comments. It starts to sound like “my feelings should take precedence over your existence” instead of “this is what I feel and why” or “this is how we can improve things.”
Its also ridiculous to me when it’s “but a man could rape me” but no “a bear could maul me.” If someone says that they have been SA’d or have otherwise had negative experiences, fine. I still think its a bit of a stretch to generalize it but I’m not out there saying “BuT nOt AlL mEn” to that.
None of the situations I was talking about involved direct replies to women talking about their own experiences.
Okay well that’s literally the topic of this post. So you are butting in with irrelevant commentary a bit.
Commentary isn’t irrelevant just because it’s not the exact same thing that you said. Exploring related questions/scenarios is half the point of a good discussion.
Uhhhhh they deleted the post which is very disheartening because there was genuinely really positive discussion going on. 🙁 Here is a reposted version.
Thanks again :)
Valid! I encourage you to pop over to this post I made instead perhaps. It already has some rich discussion going on about exactly the concerns you are voicing here.
Thanks! Will check it out. I salute your efforts to spread awareness about lemmy stifling SA talk.
❤️ 👍
Your comment is kind of funny because it’s definitely problematic in several ways. So I’m not surprised at all that you have heard from others before that you’re part of the problem. When enough people tell you that, then maybe you should do some selfcrit instead of continuing to victimblame women for experiencing sexism 🤷
It’s funny that you assumed that “enough people told me that” from one instance that this reminded me of. I didn’t victim blame them for experiencing sexism. I said that accusing innocent people who they’ve never interacted with and generalizing statements is ridiculous. Maybe be more specific on how my comment was “problematic” instead of some vague doublespeak.
I hope you don’t mind me joining the conversation, but I just wanted to say that I understand and validate your experience and emotions. It’s really terrible to go through something like that, and I don’t appreciate the other commenter minimizing your experience.
One thing that isn’t always acknowledged is that the patriarchy can negatively impact everyone, regardless of gender. Your story is a clear example of this. Feminism, as it works to dismantle the patriarchy, can ultimately benefit and liberate men as well.
If you haven’t already, I suggest checking out !mensliberation@lemmy.ca. I’m not very active there, but I’ve seen some really positive conversations happening. Feel free to give it a try if you’re interested - you might find some value there. And of course, you’re always welcome to stay here in 196 as well 💙🦈.
Do you bring these issues up of your own accord? Or do you wait until a woman speaks of her concerns then use it as an opportunity to unload?
I found the recent incel-ish responses on various Lemmy communities to the bear meme to be off-putting. Granted, it’s much worse on Reddit but I would have expected better on this platform.
precisely! to date lemmy had been the most progressive and respectable toward human dignity community i have followed, but that facade has dropped pretty quickly with this turn :(
I hope this doesn’t sound aggressive, but unless you’re a man, you never had to venture very far on Lemmy to experience misogyny. If you ever mentioned you were a woman in any of the major instances and communities in any context except “I’m a woman and here’s what I don’t like about other women,” you were gonna get misogynistic replies and a shocking amount of downvotes. It’s just what happens when any internet community is dominated by a single gender I guess.
Lemmy’s always been great about almost every other social issue, except sometimes trans issues and neurodivergence if you stepped out of the communities for it, but women’s issues have always been an absolute train wreck around here.This definitely aligns with my experience and understanding as well. Thank you for sharing :)
Even as a man I noticed pretty quickly that Lemmy can be weird about women, maybe as an extension of many nerd spaces still being like that. I really hope we get or federate some communities with a different gender balance, I guess beehaw and blahaj already try to be.
Yeah, I’ve seen ignorant takes about that on tumblr too, from accounts I thought knew better. Genuinely disappointing to see.
i guess i wasn’t online when this bear meme happened? what was it about?
Hypothetical question posed to women: would you rather be alone in the woods with a bear or a man? Many women said “bear”. Many men took that personally.
What a stupid thing to spend energy getting upset about. I’m a bigger than average dude and I’d pick the bear as well; humans are capable of all kinds of villainy, bears are just bears. I’d like to find the statistics on women attacked by bears in the woods compared to women attacked by men, it has to be overwhelming more common to be attacked by a man.
I agree with you completely; I’m surprised that people are upset as well, but there are plenty of people in this thread who feel that the question unreasonably attacks men and is deliberately inflammatory.
I don’t have a particular Lemmy link, but here’s a general overview from knowyourmeme.
Thank you for the link. It seems rather surprising by how many woman apparently chooses the bear option. I understand their reasoning but I thought it would be 60/40 favoring the bear.
According to the CDC, 1 in 3 women in the US have been victims of sexual harassment or assault. And honestly, given how underreported those sorts of stats are, it’s probably higher.
Another hypothetical question was posed to women a while ago: if all the men on the planet got whisked away (not killed, just sent to an awesome men-only vacation planet or something) for 48 hours, what would you do?
The answers were overwhelmingly things like ‘go for a walk at night’, ‘take a jog with my earbuds in’, ‘go to the gym’…
Well that sounds sadly realistic, but honestly the 1 in 4 attempted or completed rape is miles away more shocking. I’m so out of touch with reality damn.
Hey, at least you’re listening and giving it serious thought. That’s better than some people.
Ah yes, this IS about the bear meme. Maybe this is a lesson that doubling down on an inflammatory meme is the worst way to attempt to get a point across, claiming that people annoyed with the meme are attempting to silence you is just trippling down.
Hey you had some decent points in the other thread. :) Please take a moment to reflect as I know you have it in you.
claiming that people annoyed with the meme are attempting to silence you
Emphatically: Not what I am doing. I am referencing literal instances where woman said “hey this is what happened to me,” and men responded in a dogpile “shut up, you are antagonizing me.”
When someone shows me a bear i’m all like “where’s the second head”
absolutely valid haha. if you don’t have the context or the emotional bandwidth currently to look into the details i have provided i encourage you just to move on, thank you :)
I appreciate that, friend. I hope my comment didn’t come off as flippant. I absolutely believe you’ve seen the shit you’re railing against, I just haven’t seen it (on Lemmy) myself.
I haven’t seen a post silencing sa on lemmy and I m pretty glad that I haven’t.
Maybe because they were already silenced?
I have no idea what this post is even referring to, though. This have something to do with the bear thing? That shit started cropping up all over my feed, then this. Explain to an out of touch aging fucker what’s going on here, will ya youngin? There’s a hay penny in it for ya
Basically an overgeneralized meme representing the very true and valid fear women have towards strange men, where if they were stuck in a forest and had to choose to be stuck there with a strange man or a strange bear, many women would choose to be stuck with a bear, started cropping up on lemmy. Unfortunately this meme ALSO hit on the lived experience that a lot of men have had where they’ve grown up their entire lives feeling like they’ve been villainized and made to be the source of all societies ills, and so they voiced, with varying levels (and lack of) nuance why this meme upset them as it felt like a further villainization. This caused more friction than nuanced discussion, and more memes that more directly antagonized those who didnt appreciate the meme started cropping up, and now we are here
TBH this really wasn’t the kind of discourse I was expecting in 196 of all places, especially since there are Tumblr posts on this sub preemptively calling out this kinda stuff for being terf talking points
as others have said the whole bear thing has really brought the losers out of the woods.
Fortunately, that was always the point. The hypothetical is stupid and makes no sense. But it really trips men up and exposes them as they rush to say “not all men” in a different way.
It’s clearly ragebait, but let’s be real here: the amount of accusations against men in general is astounding. Not the real, actual cases, but the implication that by virtue of being male I’m immediately accused of being a predator. And that’s just shitty.
I can understand that a lot of men feel very attacked by that, because a whole lot of men just try to be good people. This kind of ragebait is harmful, because it will definitely turn a bunch of men hostile towards anything feminism, since in their view, they can only lose. And that’s incredibly bad.
Gee, I wonder if there are other groups of people who have been painted with one brush. Perhaps the is a group that is assumed to be less skilled at STEM jobs. Or another group assumed to be more prone to criminal behavior. Wouldn’t that just be something? /s
We men, especially we white men, get a fraction of the same treatment women and minorities have been getting for hundreds of years and freak out over how unfair it is. And that’s an excuse to demand everyone use kid gloves when talking about these issues?
If you’re only doing the right thing because people recognize you for it, I suggest you may not really be doing the right thing. If you’re a good person, then you should understand why the average woman may show fear and caution when encountering an unknown man.
Things like the bear meme aren’t asking about YOU. When people say “I’d rather choose the bear than a man” they aren’t saying every man. Yes, the generalization stings when you think about it being applied to yourself. But if you truly understand the issues and the hypothetical you understand that the answer isn’t about you. It’s about what women have learned to expect when encountering a man they don’t already know well enough based on prior experience
So discrimination is okay if it hits the right people?
Again, an entire group is set out to be predators for no fault of their own.
I’m portrayed as a predator, because some idiots are, and I’m supposed to view that to reflect myself, because some other people are also treated badly? That doesn’t make sense. This is purely parroting the party line, chastising oneself what an evil counterrevolutionary one is.
No positive, but tons of new hostility. Awesome. That’ll take humanity in the right direction!
You’re not listening. YOU are not portrayed as a predator. YOU need to take a backseat for the betterment of the lives of the victims of injustice. Just because something isn’t your fault doesn’t mean it’s not your responsibility to deal with it when you are in the class of people benefitting from the injustice.
As the other commentor said: punching up is very, very different than punching down.
When a specific person treats you, specifically, poorly because you’re a man, THEN you can talk about how you are not a threat, and try to convey that you are actually an ally (which is questionable based on your reactions here). But when there is a conversation about average behavior and expectations, side with the victims. You are not a victim. You do not lose more than you gain from being a man. Maybe you get weird looks when you’re solo-parenting but you still make $1 to a woman’s $0.79 or whatever the number is today for soemeone in the same job.
So please, stop focusing on yourself. It’s selfish. Try to think about the bigger picture. And yeah, take one for the team when it comes to memes about bears
Tell me, exactly, how I am not meant? I’m a man, men are portrayed as universally dangerous. How am I not implied here?
Thinking I’m not meant is wishful thinking. And it’s extremely interesting, that suddenly I’m portrayed by you as a bad guy, because I say “hey, I’m not a bad guy, why do you call me that?”. I explicitly mentioned the very real predators. But you ignored that.
And thinking like yours is exactly why there’s so much hate. I don’t subscribe to the party line, that men have to shut up and just have to accept that they are all potentially vile beasts, and thus I have to be one of the vile beasts. Don’t you see that? Do you really don’t see what you’re doing here? You’re creating the us vs them chasm. You’re alienating people because you’re just now actively accusing me of being a bad guy. And yes, it’s about me, because I’m a man and this meme is about men. I’m in it. Just like you are.
You’re still not listening and it’s obvious you don’t want to. You seem incapable of stepping outside of your own lived experience and considering the experience of others. You take everything personally, rather than looking at why the generalization might be valid even if you consider yourself an exception.
I’m a 6’1" burly, hairy, white guy with a deep voice. My wife knows I couldn’t hurt anyone. The stranger on the street does not. So I don’t take it personally when women get startled in public if I’m unexpectedly boisterous near them. And I wouldn’t take it personally if, given the chance, a woman chose to create space between us on an empty street at night.
The fact is, other men have made the world harder for us. And that sucks. But not nearly as hard as they make it for women. So if you’re going to be pissy with anyone, aim your disdain at the shithead men who created this situation instead of the women who just want to feel safe.
It’s easy to demand women “don’t discriminate” against you. It’s hard to demand men behave better. That’s the difference between punching up and punching down. Learn to punch up instead of taking the easy way.
And to head off the obvious counter argument: it’s different than race because men actually, demonstrably hold positions of power and privilege over women simply by being men. The same is not true of skin color, etc. Again, punching up vs punching down.
Why didn’t you reply to neatchee’s reply? Did you realize you’re wrong and don’t know how to backtrack?
Literally yes. It’s called punching up, and it’s pretty well accepted, culturally. It’s basically the only trade-off to being vastly more likely to achieve economic and societal status.
And you think that’s helpful?
We’re not talking about an enslaved group here, but women. Yes, disadvantaged in many areas, but far from being universally inferior in every aspect. If I’m punching up, you know, who I hit? Several women. Hell, my chancellor has been a woman for literally the majority of my life.
Again, what does this achieve? Hostility of those who don’t want to be put on the same level as rapists. Instead of blaming the very real predators for their very real crimes, they’re blaming every man for being a man. That’s not punching up.
If I’m punching up, you know, who I hit? Several women.
You’re doing that thing where you accuse black people of being lazy because you were poor once but managed to work hard and find a good job.
In society, women are beneath men. Would you care to argue they’re not?
who don’t want to be put on the same level as rapists.
Why do you keep self-including into bizarre categories like this?
“This trend is kinda prejudiced.”
“Good, because prejudice is bad!”
Some people do not know what they want.
Any man who turns hostile to women because of a bear meme was hopeless to begin with. Feminism isn’t convincing sexist men to not be sexist, it’s educating and empowering women to stand up for themselves and stop accepting vile behaviour by vile men.
Look, the bear meme was annoying but understandable, but the way that people are immediately attempting to character assasinate anyone annoyed by it or attempting to have a nuanced discussion about it is pushing people away.
If you don’t subscribe to my kind of feminism, you’re a monster anyway.
That’s essentially your point.
get fucking over yourself, youre what im talking about
Then tell me: how is helping anyone?
Do you seriously believe, that this changes anything to the positive?
Ya it shows how many men really are a bunch of fragile bitches and are outing themselves, its great for women.
Im a man and i know im fucking awesome so im not triggered or offended when women say they would rather be in the forest alone with a bear. Which i also completely understand because most women have had truly awful experiences with a man.
Id rather be in the woods with a bear than a man like you and im not scared of being sexually assaulted, men like you just annoy the ever loving shit out of me.
Removed by mod
LMFAO youre such a stupid bitch. Id completely understand if a muslim didnt want to be in the woods alone in the woods with a jew or if a jew didnt want to be alone in the woods with a muslim. Wanna know why? Cuz i know both of them are capable of extreme hatred and prejudice. Just like most women know most men are capable of extreme violence especially when they are left alone with a a man. You getting your panties in such a twist over this truly shows how fucking pathetic you are. And cuz i am fucking awesome and you fucking suck loser. And no i dont care about my entire gender being framed because i know who i am and i know how shit most men are.
Like you. Youre shit cunt.
Oh! We’re doing race.
Would you say it’s okay for a black man in the 1860s to say that very white american towns make him kinda nervous? Or like, a town in Idaho today.
I don’t normally upvote flagrant trash talk but gotdam this is so on the nose for the issue at hand that I can’t help it. Can’t unilaterally condone the tone but if there were ever a time, place, and subject, this is it
im just sick of stupid people who lack basic empathy and then still try to play the victim. Like holy fucking shit if you wouldnt attack or rape a women then they arnt talking about you, but for whatever reason some men feel the reason to band together when they are slightly threatened in the least. Ive had bad experiences with every type of person under the sun, no one group of people is perfect but i also understand that isnt representative of the entire people. However i can say that i as a man the majority gender causing bad experiences are unfortunately men. I know how truly dangerous some men are and how some view and treat women.
The bear analogy is actually perfect.
For the most part bears even a grizzly if it sees you first, you dont startle it, and you respect them and keep your distance wont harm you or attack you.Even if they do charge its been shown standing your ground works at scaring them off.
Unfortunately if you’re a women alone the same thing cannot be said for seeing a lone man in the woods.
An unknown man to a lone women is truly a wild and chaotic thing. Most women unfortunately think ” is he gonna harass me, bother me, not leave me alone, assault me, intimidate me, or murder me.” Thats something that goes through most womens minds every single so fucking day.
So it pisses me off how so many lack a shred of common decency or understanding and immediately start huffing and puffing about how they are not like that.
Motherfuckas like that make me so fucking mad LIKE HOLY SHIT HOW ARE WOMEN CAPABLE OF KNOWING THAT JUST AT A GLANCE WHAT TYPE OF MAN YOU ARE. most serial killers where and are charming individuals.
if a man told me they dont wanna be in the woods alone with a women because they scared i wouldnt judge them either.
Too many men truly lack the understanding of what most women go through in their daily lives and its so fucking sad for the women who then have to deal with that bullshit. the sadder part is that many men DONT want to learn or understand.
It’s less about being a predator and more about taking responsibility for the power the average dude can wield over women. Women are taken less seriously and have less social authority by default in comparison to men. On top of that, most men can physically overpower most women, a fact that doesn’t care about your feelings.
Even men should respect the danger other men can pose. Most murders are men killing men, so it’s not like men are safe. Be humble, understand the dangers, and have thicker skin when people tell you unpleasant truths.
Be humble, understand the dangers, and have thicker skin when people tell you unpleasant truths.
Imagine saying that to a woman being catcalled.
Are you being catcalled right now?
I didn’t realize this discussion was happening outside of your house. Is there a garden I shouldn’t be stepping on?
Bro I’m losing my mind. Everyone is talking about “picking the bear” and I can’t figure out what the hell any of it means 😭
Okay very basically this whole thing started with a hypothetical posed to a bunch of women about which they would rather run into while alone in the woods; A random man, or a bear. A lot of women chose the bear. Reasons varied from “The worst the bear will do is kill me,” to “At least I know the bear wants to kill me,” with a general theme seeming to be that whatever tangible threat the bear posed was preferable to the uncertainty of wondering whether or not a random man would assault them.
The poster’s stated goal with the hypothetical was to get men to think about why the women were choosing the bear. Instead a lot of guys took it as a personal attack, like they were being punished for the actions of other men. Many started attacking the question, insisting that bears are way more dangerous than virtually any man. This led to a lot of dismissive responses of the criticism like “This is why women choose the bear,” or talking about women’s safety being more important than men’s feelings.
I’m simplifying a lot but that’s the basic gist of it.
Thank you for the detailed summary.
To add the final unfortunate details, there was a recent discussion on Lemmy where women were sharing their reasons for choosing bear, which involved sharing personal stories of SA. Unfortunately, many men responded in a toxic manner, causing some women to delete their posts or accounts. Very disturbing and this is what inspired me to make this post, as it is quite reminiscent of the Catholic church sweeping SA under the rug.
Thats exactly what a not-bear-picker would say! Disgusting!!!
After seeing what you’re talking about, I’m glad I mostly stick to Blahaj Zone.
💙🦈💙
I haven’t been on here in a few days, what’s going on?
Men reacting to intentionally inflammatory bear meme is an affront to women apparently
*”Men telling women to say their experiences in a less antagonistic way is an affront to women.” FTFY
I am absolutely with you in agreeing that the bear meme is inflammatory. But this post is about women who are telling their stories about being SA’d and men dogpiling telling them to shut up. A very different matter that I haven’t seen in any other community.
This post might not be about you, but it is about a real thing that happened/is happening. Take a beat to internalize that :)
Yeah IDK either, this place is not nearly as addictive as reddit so I’m not on here daily, either.
Here is context first of all.
Second of all, the discussion surrounding this meme prompted several women to share their stories regarding SA, to which quite a few men brigaded and harassed those women, sometimes until they deleted their accounts.
Ohhh, that issue. Thank you! Yeah, Lemmy silencing them is not at all cool. I really hate how we are needing to sensor or provide a trigger warning for practically everything anymore. Sure some things like SA, or self harm make sense. I’ve literally seen someone put a trigger warning on a kid friendly picture of a fucking fursuit, with hashtags specifically to attract other furries. The internet has become way too sensitive about everything, it’s so annoying sometimes
The simple answer is to just listen to women, and not just wait to get in a “not all men” and act smug. Easy as that.
The number of comments here that seek to immediately discount what you are saying is deeply troubling.
Yes! In several aspects, I appreciate the progressive nature of the community here. However, the predominantly male composition of the community is a significant drawback. There is a noticeable lack of maningful exposure to even basic feminist theory compared to Marxist, environmental, racial, or other left-leaning theories. It is my hope that we, as a community, can acknowledge this deficiency and make efforts to address it, as recent events have shown that the status quo is doing nothing but harm.
A lot of people seem to think things like sexism are a personal failing or deliberate act as opposed to a systemic issue that affects us all.
you_are_not_immune_to_propaganda.jpg
Lemmy has been very good in my experience with recognizing this truth when it comes to systemic racism. I guess I thought it would translate more easily to gender as well but clearly I was quite mistaken.
Thank… Someone that i only stay in local Blåhaj zone
Of course it happened in a blahaj-less meme page 😞
shoutout to blahaj and the absolute queens who run it 💆♀️🙂↕️
