Would more men be open to going to therapy if they had resources tailored specifically for them, and if the office had Emotional Support Animals for appointment use?
I’m a woman but due to my interests in traditionally masculine activities and general disinterest in conventional gendered behaviours, I hang around a lot of men. Most of my close friends have been men. From my experience, if men want to improve their mental health then they need to develop a better relationship with vulnerability and the shame they’ve been conditioned to feel around that.
Mental health stigma exists for everyone and as a society we need to fuck this right off. Mental health challenges are part of the human experience in the same way physical illnesses are and we need to support people accordingly. I’ve noticed that a lot of men tend to have issues with expressing their feelings out of fear of being vulnerable. The outdated myth that men are less emotional really doesn’t help this situation either. This can also create barriers for men in seeking mental health support, both formal and informal.
It needs to more okay for men to be vulnerable. All people are vulnerable and it doesn’t make you weak. All people need support at some point in their lives. Emotions are really hard and it’s better to recognise and acknowledge them than it is to push them down. Expressing vulnerability and overcoming difficult feelings shows bravery and strength.
Can you offer some examples of where “being vulnerable” led a man out of depression?
I do agree that there is a culture of masculine shame around mental health, and it can be unhealthy. But I’ve also seen that those who share their feelings don’t get the promotion, tend to make coworkers uncomfortable, drive women away. Life is still a competition and vulnerability is genuinely risky.
I’ve seen bullies strategically share false vulnerability to garner sympathy. Genuine vulnerability often looks gross from a man, and is unlikely to lead to positive outcomes.
Most importantly, this new wave of mental health problems is not caused by a new wave of “not being vulnerable.” It’s a societal issue and must be confronted there, not shunted onto each individual man.
I am an actual licensed therapist and while there are a number of real actual creating barriers specific to men pursuing mental health treatment there are a few factors I’ve consistently seen that are ubiquitous across gender, race, sexuality, class, etc
Money, time, availability
Therapy is inaccessible. I am a therapist who mostly works with insurance companies. They pay me about 100-115/hr. My clients will often have a high deductible health plan which means they need to pay this $100-115 per session until they hit their deductible, which can be 5,000+ dollars. It’s a lot to ask someone to pay $100+ weekly. On top of that they still usually have a responsibility afterwards of (typically) 10-30% so $10-34.5 per meeting which is still a notable weekly cost for many people on the high end especially after shelling out $400+ a month for months on end.
Other clients have PPO insurance which is a fixed cost per meeting but this can vary wildly. More affluent clients have excellent PPOs where they might pay $10-20 per meeting which is not terrible. But that’s rare. We are often covered under the “specialist” copay and many PPO plans have tiered provider coverage now. So a copay for me might be $50 or more per meeting (the worst I saw was $125 which was absurd because it was actually $27 more than I’d get from the insurer in question).
So you have this on top of these plans taking hundreds of dollars out of each pay check. “Well budget for it”. Hard to do because the need for therapy can be inconsistent and many of these people are coming in fo(and specifically symptoms like poor money management). Then on top of that even if you do budget for it you have the inherent issue that the need for outpatient therapy is often not dire/acute so if something more pressing comes up (eg a serious dental/medical issue, car breaks down, short on rent) therapy might be the corner to cut if it’s already established because in the overwhelming majority of cases you won’t die without it; it will just lower your quality of life (sometimes significantly so)
Then comes the time portion. Even if you can get past the cost barrier you have the availability of the therapist and yourself. I’m a night owl and I work late but many of my colleagues don’t. I’m pretty nontraditional though, no kids and my partner is very career oriented themselves whereas many of my peers tend to value the traditional 9-5 much more so they can be home for their children and such.
So when you go to schedule with someone it’s often that you can only get seen during business hours. It’s one thing when it’s a doctors appointment that you have once every few months that you need to duck out of work for but a weekly hour long engagement is much harder to explain. This brings back in the masculinity issues - many men find this basically impossible to disclose to the workplace and basically wouldn’t even try to get an exception for weekly therapy. Even without explicitly saying so asking for 1 hour open a week consistently for a doctors appointment is going to be perceived as therapy by many. But stigma aside many of us simply can’t do that. I’m on the practitioner side and I know I’ve ignored my own physical health at times because it was inconvenient to schedule doctor appointments during my workday.
Our systems of employment (at least in the USA) simply do not provide or protect for medical leave, even when it’s very brief and especially when you are a low level employee (executives and admins tend to have less of an issue ducking out for doctors appointments in my experience at least). There is no legal right to paid or unpaid time off for medical appointments in the USA and that is completely disgusting in 2023.
The final piece is practitioner availability. I have a waitlist through October at the moment and am not accepting new clients. All of my colleagues are in the same boat. The old practices I used to work at constantly call me to see if I’ll take any referrals because their waitlists are so overloaded. The hospitals and clinics I have referral relationships with email me every week for updates. It’s extremely stressful. Every new client, especially adolescent, complains that they are happy to finally have someone after waiting 3-6 months. Even if someone wants a therapist they have to wait ages. It is not uncommon that I get someone and when I call them to start they say they don’t even remember why they called in the first place.
We need more people doing the work. Or ideally we need to make societal reforms so that there are less people experiencing mental health issues. I’ve been doing this almost 15 years now. I, and anyone who doesn’t exclusively work with the rich, can tell you that a significant degree of what we work with is people who lack resources and not proper mental illness. I mean, it is depression and anxiety, but it’s because they have been paycheck to paycheck for years or theyre under a mountain of student loans or credit card debt and the stress is just too much to bear. And their jobs won’t give them raises and there aren’t any other jobs out there that pay more. Not everyone is a software developer or investment banker that can jump ship to another 6 figure job with cushy benefits. Most people work jobs that pay 40-60k with shit benefits and little upward mobility.
To answer your question more directly:
In my opinion it’s a systemic issue based around that super fun phrase everyone loves, “toxic masculinity”. I personally do not subscribe to gender labels but I am amab/male presenting and get a lot of male clients as a result. Many of them tell me they hide the fact that they are in therapy from everyone but their partner. This is indicative of the problem; that being in therapy is weak. That being in therapy makes them a bitch, a wuss, all kinds of pejorative terms. It’s bad, is my point.
So part of the answer imo is not in having doggies and cool dude stuff in the office. Its far more complex and involves redefining masculinity to still including things like being a lumberjack or carpentry or whatever. From there though you need to shed the part where it means you have to be emotionally numb to everything, constantly display strength, embrace the fucked up misrepresentation of stoicism that has you shove all your feelings into your stomach, and glorify anger, rage, and violence as the only appropriate means of emotional expression.
this could also be extended to the stigma surrounding therapy itself and the tendency to associate therapy need with weakness. This is an issue that goes beyond therapy though; there are people who won’t see medical doctors for the same reason even though they’re in physical pain. Our pride is our downfall.
Tldr make therapy cheap and accessible, make protections for workers to seek medical care, increase the amount of practitioners (or decrease the need for them), and systemic reform to the societal concept of masculinity and pride. So probably gonna take awhile
This was quite simply the greatest ‘not rant’ I’ve read in a long time. Really well reasoned and I completely agree (although, in New Zealand we don’t suffer from nearly as much pressure).
One of the things that really keeps me repelled by conventional therapy in business hours is not just the time out from work, but it’s the emotional hangover that lasts hours or days in some cases. Fuck trying to pokerface my way through that one - one drop of verbal praise and it’ll be the ugly waterworks all over again…
This is a fantastic response, and it’s good to see someone taking a practical view of time/money/availability concerns.
One aspect I haven’t seen raised much is a slightly subtler parsing of the whole masculinity thing. Perhaps it’s generational (I’m genx), perhaps it’s cultural (I’m not from the US), but I think perceived weakness is a misreading of the motivation, or perhaps even a more-acceptable out, for many guys.
Perhaps this might give someone out there an angle they find useful, who knows?
A chunk of it from my perspective, and as best I can gather for a lot of guys I know, isn’t about being seen as a pussy, it’s just… my problem to deal with, not something anyone else has control over or responsibility for, any more than they can go pee for me when I need to. The anxiety here isn’t jocks kicking sand in your face, it’s the sitcom dad asking what the hell you expect him to do about it, idiot.
It’s associated with and caused by cultural gender norms and the way we’re raised, but I think it’s a misleading oversimplification to suggest that it’s just about not appearing masculine enough. It’s not about being ‘man enough’ to tough it out, it’s that as men, they’re taught that the only resource they have is themselves.
And a second major facet is that for a lot of guys, losing control of their emotions in and of itself represents painful catastrophic failure. While guys definitely get punished and shamed for displaying vulnerability, the flipside of that is that they tend to rely on the resulting rigidity for refuge and protection. But especially since they get no opportunity to practice controlled, minor release of negative emotions, that protection is all or nothing; one good crack and the entire structure collapses. And that’s not the cathartic but ultimately healing purge people think of it as, but rather a terrifying, traumatic and destructive breakdown of everything that’s holding them together. And most guys I know would no more put themselves in that harm’s way than they’d shove their arm down a garbage disposal.
Again: caused by shitty gender norms, but the connection isn’t the one people usually paint. We’re no longer told during our upbringing that boys don’t cry; that’s a horrible relic of the bad old days. Instead boys are told that only babies cry. Crying isn’t feminised, it’s infantilised. The shame associated is not due to being inadequately male, but inadequately adult (but only if you’re male). This of course does women no favours; when men see crying in women as accepted and encouraged, what they hear is that women must be fundamentally infantile on some level themselves.
If we want to see better emotional resilience in men specifically, and better use of mental health resources by men, I think the most effective change would be a cultural shift creating a safer environment in which they can be vulnerable. There’s no use telling men that they should be vulnerable, in a society that will just hurt them for it; the ground needs to be prepared first. That means a hard, critical look at gendered expectations around emotional expression in children, and a significant change to how they’re raised. It means treating phrases like ‘man-baby’, ‘man-flu’ and ‘male tears’ as toxic and offensive on par with racial slurs, and a bunch of surrounding attitudes treated like the ingrained racism of boomer grandparents.
It’d be really nice if we could stop telling people how to do their gender altogether, and stop using gender-compliance as a proxy for admirable character traits. Every time well-meaning people promote the notion that Real Men Are (generous / honest / hardworking / etc.), they’re pushing the converse, that insufficiently-masculine people are (mean / shifty / lazy / etc.), and that makes the whole problem worse, not better.
This is pretty much what I meant by that fucked up misinterpretation of stoicism
Like you have the actual Aurelius stoicism which has some very good value; everyone should read meditations once or twice. But then it’s been cliff notes’d and perverted by a bunch of people into to lose the message entirely from “be in control of your emotions” to what you’ve described: horrific rigidity to keep it all in at all times until of course it doesn’t work anymore and you break down spectacularly. Like somehow the message has gone from “control” to “emotional numbness”
A similar dynamic has happened with nihilism where some the writings on it are not so bleak and terrible; that it is an expression of freedom. But over the years it’s been perverted into nothing matters, why bother
The world we live in, at least in regards to this, is a woman’s world and it’s not fit for men. It’s forcing men to do what’s best for women, then if they have any issues things that worked on women are used on men. If men act like women at the end then great, if they still act like men then they are broken.
Now I probably lost a load of people already but bare with me.
Women/ girls have issues then men/boys have to do something about it. Boys constantly get told how to behave how awful their sex is how they need to do this and that and they are wrong, they are responsibly etc. But it doesn’t matter if they are perfectly good citizen and boy it’s still their fault for all the wrong in the world. Nothing ever goes back the other way. Some rich guy has a load of money, that means all guys are responsibly for having a load of money and all guys need to make less money. It’s stupid.
But more to the point how do you make guys happy? Guys do not want one on one sessions when they can talk about all their issues and cry then feel better. That’s a woman’s solution to a problem. Men are built different and need solutions.
The best thing I found is being part of a men only group where we physically hurt each other and used our aggression to have fun with each other. (Rugby). Especially when I was younger men need that testosterone release. Then we all went to the pub got fucked up, was dicks to each other. But we had each others backs. This is what women do not get. They see us fighting each other, calling each other cunts and what not. But if you did something bad the group will let someone call you a cunt and get put in your place, if you are doing something bad the group will step in. If you did nothing wrong then it keeps going on. But we still talk and look out for each other. Here is the point. Who do you think I would rather talk to? Some person in a open collar shirt and fancy office trying to look approachable? Or some guy in a shirt and tie covered in beer, in a dark room, with a black eye and arms the size of my head, that earlier in the day called me a fucking pussy and told me to man the fuck up and get in the game because I just got pushed off a tackle. I bet 9/10 women would get that wrong. Also I’m the person that would respond well to that sort of encouragement, I don’t need to feel sorry for myself that doesn’t help. I need motivation. Women don’t get that either.
Men need men only spaces where they can de-stress and shoot the shit. This is why pubs have been so popular with men. But we need a revival of social clubs. Just a place where you can go to hang out and not need to drink, somehow children need to be involved too by maybe not every day.
Men, in general, are perfectly mentally healthy. There are men who suffer from such things as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder–these men require medical treatment for these disorders as much as I require glasses for my myopia. These are medical problems that require medical solutions.
I am not one of those men. I’m one of the many men who operates under a constant layer of depression, anxiety and anger. For men like me, “Therapy” is pretty much a scam. What’s the difference between going to see a “therapist” and going to a fortune teller to read some tarot cards? It costs a lot, insurance won’t pay for it, it takes up a lot of time, and nothing about your situation is ever improved. I’m depressed and anxious and angry because society by and large doesn’t work. The rich are ruining the world for the rest of us out of sheer greed. I’m a widely skilled man, I’m an auto mechanic, a carpenter, a pilot, a programmer…I’ve never had a job that paid all of my bills. And there is nothing.
Nothing.
NOTHING.
NOTHING!!!
that a master’s degree in a tweed jacket can write on a legal pad that will fix that.
“Resources tailored specifically for them” What “resources?” They ain’t got no “resources.” They’ve got a box of tissues and a stack of board games for the neglected/abused children they have to handle. They don’t have a July that isn’t the hottest on record, health insurance that pays for eye glasses, or stable food prices in there.
Talking about “emotional support animals” makes me think that this is a question of marketing. Therapy for MenTM where the therapist wears flannel and a bushy beard with a waxed mustache, the whole place is wood paneled, there’s pictures of axes on the walls, all the furniture is brown leather. Focus groups have shown this is effective for marketing hygiene products, kitchen implements, clothes and alcohol to men, maybe it’ll work for mental health counseling.
