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The only thing we can be certain of is Arsenal would still not have won the game regardless of wich way any or all of these decisions go
Arsenals var rant is honestly shameful and embarrasing . Firstly its the correct decision, secondly even if its wrong everyone makes mistakes, just move on. Everybody knows man city are going to win in May anyways.
Lmao
“Independent” my Arse!
The defending of the rancid inept shit bags of the PGMOL is funny AF.
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We should just let arsenal fans become the new refereeing association. They know more about it than the ‘experts’
You mean the experts that include a fella that sent off kieran gibbs instead of oxlade chamberlain who is a good 4 inches wider and 6 inches shorter and were split 3/2 on whether or not clear violent conduct was a red? I have a thousand bridges to sell you lmao
The decisions are just strange. How 2 people can say that Bruno shouldn’t have been sent off is just beyond me. Because that is a textbook red card.
What a misleading title by OP, its not really an independent panel but just 5 people hired by EPL where there’s an obvious conflict of interest.
‘Why would this accounting audit firm be trusted, they’re hired by their clients’
It’s not misleading at all
I even made a comment with a breakdown of the makeup of the panel and how they voted (and you’ll note that said panel unanimously voted that at least one decision was wrong)
And I don’t imagine that you’re claiming that the Premier League has a vested interest in people going round telling fans that the refs fucked up so I’m not sure what your point is?
Independent is defined as free from outside control and authority. Are you telling me that panel, who are regularly involved in either punditry, officiating or some form of the FA and premier league is independent? Next time we do this can we make up the panel of previous Arsenal players, or Newcastle players? Would be just as independent
The overall theme here is that the panel couldn’t conclude that an elbow to the head was worth a VAR review.
That strips them of all credibility, end of story.
The are genuinely called “Independent Key Match Incidents Panel” you absolute melt.
And American cheese is called cheese, that doesn’t mean it’s not plastic.
Am I allowed to celebrate the win now Arsenal fans?
Also 5-0 for Havertz to get sent off, thank you! Awful challenge, had so many Arsenal fans defending it instead of condoning at asking wtf Havertz was thinking potentially throwing the game that early
The majority on this sub was arguing that havertz challenge was fine while brunos elbow wasn’t.
Arsenal fans are one of the largest percentages on either this sub or r/soccer. I can’t remember which. But they weren’t thinking entirely rationally after the match
Imo the Havertz challenge could, and probably should have been a red. I said in real time, “he’s gone for that”
However there is just enough subjectivity about it that I can see why it might not be given, even if I disagree.
The Bruno forearm however was objectively violent conduct and with VAR it’s the kind of thing that should never be going unpunished.
There is no objective way to send Bruno off. The rules include words like ‘negligible’ and ‘excessive’, leaving it up to the officials’ discretion. They decided it wasn’t a red, therefore by the letter of the law, it wasn’t a red.
If you have any solutions for how to better codify the spirit of the game I’ve made a post here which is getting annoyingly little responses. I think people just want to moan.
The return at the emirates is going to be a slobberknocker to quote JR
By Gawd King! 🤣
Settle down Mary. Think of your heart.
The downvotes for you shows you’re right lol
No use having a balanced discussion on this sub, it’s all Arsenal fans
Which is absurd. Just to clarify.
Huh majority of arsenal fans I’ve seen say that Havertz was an orange and they’d be fine with him getting sent off for it.
I don’t understand how the goal stands with the shove though. And yes the other stuff is ‘unclear’ but that’s because of the shitty tech and angles they’re using. Like it’s not that hard to have a line down the line
Yeah and they were right. You literally get worse tackles than havertz in every single game. I’ve seen worse tackles not even given as yellows against arsenal this season alone.
He was flying through the air like a nutter and his leading legs catch Longstaff halfway up his planted leg, then follows through full force with his trailing leg. You’d be happy seeing a team taking it in turns to tactically do that to Saka and only end up with a few yellows? Come off it
Saying that he catches longstaffs standing leg is as misleading as you want. He didn’t catch his leg, he clipped with the slightest clip possible.
Oh okay well if a panel said it was fine.
Just ignore your eyes and all your own opinions they are definitively declared wrong.
They really want to pretend its just whinging don’t they? And there isn’t a massive issue with the integrity of the game being threatened. But there is and saying “nah its fine” isnt gonna work.
My bath panel could do a better job.
It sounds like you’re complaining about Bruno and ignoring havertz
Ok. And? They’re wrong, there was a clear foul
Tried to look around to see who sits on this panel - John Moss, Martin Atkinson, Karen Carney and Rob Green. Folks with real vested interests in ensuring that the organisations they serve is not seen in bad light.
Wasn’t it Atkinson who gave that red card to Kieran Gibbs? And Moss who never missed an excuse to wave a red card t Granit Xhaka? Both Karen and Rob are regular guests either as pundits or match day analysts at Premier League Productions.
This is a panel alright; but let us not kid ourselves that it is independent. Mike Dean said it all about refs protecting each other; and I don’t understand why we are not taking him for his word.
In what world would a rational person accept that what Guimares did to Jorginho was acceptable, while Havertz’s (admittedly reckless but really not sackable) attempt to win the ball was an overwhelming outrage?
In what world would a rational person accept Joelinton’s hands on Gabriel was not a player gaining illegal leverage to gain advantage?
But of course, they know they can get away with this because there are media houses like ESPN and Sky Sports to megaphone this to millions of football fans without so much as push back.
They have already showed their hand by sending out Jamie Carragher, Gary Neville and Micheal Owen to lead the misinformation against Arsenal and its manager Arteta, while diverting attention from yet another atrocious display of refereeing standards in supposedly the best league in the world.
The only thing reckless about Havertz challenge was that even when trying to break someone’s leg he still missed. Red card and absolutely disgraceful challenge, Bruno red card, foul for the goal probably but not the worst call ever.
My favorite is when a criminal gets to investigate his own crimes.
THE PROOF I PROVIDED SHOWS I’M NOT GUILTY YOUR HONOR!!!
Why is everyone saying they didn’t think Bruno should have been sent off??? They said he should have
Sorry, but any panel that has 2 members who think Bruno’s forearm shouldn’t have received a Red totally invalidates itself. The rules clearly state any violent action which it obviously is. Because it wasn’t his elbow is idiotic.
Also, apparently because Gabi was intending to play the ball, made an action towards the ball, he didn’t get pushed. (Laughing). The exact same situation came up in midfield during the Dortmund/Newcastle fixture and it was a foul. In almost every scenario a foul takes place you have two ppl making actions towards the ball. Sorry but when a player jumps and creates room for himself by extending his two arms out against the opposing players head it’s a foul.
Independent my arse.
“The panel has five members, made up of three former players and/or coaches, plus one representative each from the Premier League and PGMOL”
The refs involved on the day were incompetent and this panel is just arse covering for them. Nothing to pay any credence to tbh and just as big a load of shite as onfield officiating atm
A foul only occurs if you do not know where the ball was situationally or if you are not close to the ball.
What?
I don’t think they’re saying it wasn’t a red for that forearm knock - I think the question was whether VAR should intervene or not. So if they think the ref saw it and it wasn’t clear and obvious, they would say VAR shouldn’t get involved and the on field decision should stand.
Slight decision that makes it more debatable although probably still wrong from those 2 on the panel. Seemed like a clear and obvious mistake from the ref to me.
That’s not what they said. Congratulations, you are ignorant.
All 5 were of the opinion that it should have been a red. 2 weren’t convinced that VAR needed to overrule, which is fair and logically sound.
Someone didn’t read the article. The same panel said Bruno and Havertz should have been sent off but the goal was fine to be allowed - it’s literally in the first paragraph of the article.
This is the main problem with discourse surrounding referees - those who shout loudest usually haven’t taken in all of the facts before expressing their opinion.
They didn’t just disagree with the majority they disagreed with the rule book.
Violent Conduct /…/ In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with their hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
That combined with the “he’s already made an action towards the ball” which is nowhere to be found in the rule book, not based on any precedent, and complete nonsense. Shows that this panel is judging on vibes only and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Wow, quite the assumption. Especially considering I couldn’t have known the reasons why they came to their determinations without reading the article; but if it suits your argument. Lol, hey, critical thinking might not be your strong suit which I totally get.
A panel like this is selected by a person or a couple ppl and often they will discuss, argue, their positions. Whoever put this group together obviously had an agenda if they came to the determination unanimously that the push by Joelinton wasn’t a foul based on that weak ass excuse. Also, a panel with 2 members whom thought that Bruno’s attack on Jorginho wasn’t a Red has some internal issues. I guarantee I could form a panel of ex-coaches and players who would come to the opposite conclusion about the goal and even whether Havertz deserved a Red.
Another group of idiots who are wrong. Flair checks out.
unironically not talking about arsenal fans
So you think that the goal should have been disallowed and that both Havertz and Guimaraes shouldn’t have been sent off?
Everyone’s an idiot apart from the crying Arsenal fans, manager and whole club after that pathetic statement
I honestly thought there could be a review of Bruno’s challenge on Jorginho for violent conduct with a view to a retrospective ban. 3-2 is madness.
So, we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong