Make. An. Affordable. Car.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don’t want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
Yes please. I want my car to work without tracking and software updates.
Keep dreaming.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don’t care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
Got exactly that with a VW e up.
You know that the e up was cancelled by VW?
Yes
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Other companies can, but the big ones can’t? Yeah, no. I don’t buy that for a second.
Like who do you mean when you say other companies?
BYD seem to be making good.
Isn’t that a Chinese company? They can probably get the batteries for cheaper than non-Chinese companies. Batteries are the biggest cost in a econo EV
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it’s more profitable, there’s some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that’s finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren’t making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just…softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It’s insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it’s been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don’t plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV?
Because car manufacturers don’t give two shits what people need, nor what’s best for the environment, they’re in the profit making business, and that’s all that matters.
We’re at the point now where this shouldn’t need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is…
Because batteries are expensive. So by default you’re targeting a luxury price, whether it’s luxury sports car or a luxury SUV.
This. It’s even worse in Australia. The only affordable ev is a Tesla 3 @ 55k AUD. Which even then is out of reach of most.
Why not make a 30k EV? Penetrate the majority of consumers.
I’m on a great wage and even I shake my head at 80-120k range of most EVs here. Then you get bwm releasing 180k+ EVs… who exactly is buying them?
When you price a technology out of the reach of people, the tech isn’t the failure.
You can buy a BYd Dolphin for $38k ($24kusd) mate.
https://bydautomotive.com.au/configurator/byd-dolphin?ref=website
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn’t a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
EVs aren’t working
EVs are the highest growth sector for personal vehicles but are growing a little less than expected, and we can’t make big profits yet
This is a huge point. The other considerations are: EVs are balls expensive compared to ICE counterparts and often require $500-2k worth of electrical work at your house (assuming you even own it) to put in a charger. If you live in an apartment, good luck.
And oh, btw, the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc. Then there is the lack of charging stations that highlights the range anxiety people have with EVs.
Adoption would be so much faster if EVs cost $15-25k and there were adequate standardized charging options available.
the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs
IDK where you’re from, but in europe it’s all standardized and all cars, regardless of brand, use the same plug for both AC and DC charging. The whole app/rfid tag mess is true though.
Are we doing it in a stupid way? Yes.
You know exactly where we’re from.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
EVs cost more up front and then cost less with fuel, maintenance, and longevity.
This is kind of true. A lot of the maintenance requirements for ICE vehicles is not needed for EVs. So you save money on things like oil changes and if you can charge at home then charging is probably cheaper than gas. But that battery probably needs to be replaced after about 5 years and that is a very expensive maintenance cost.
I have a 2016 leaf. I’ve changed the tires. That’s the maintenance. It’s like $3 to ‘fill’, and that’s about the same as three gallons of ICE distance.
The battery is around 90% of what I bought it at.
I have yet to hit any of the problems people are afraid of, but I might just be lucky.
An independent analysis of 15,000 EV batteries finds that most don’t need to be replaced until they’re well over a decade old.
No oil, timing belt, transmission. EVs are incredibly simple vehicles. Many years ago Tesla wanted a million mile battery, they are constantly getting better.
That might be true for older cars that didn’t have good thermal management systems (like the old Nissan leaf) but not true anymore. Electric car batteries now regularly reach over 100k miles with only small degradation. If you baby it, it seems that 200k miles with only 10% range loss is to be expected now
My EV is just over 5 years old and the battery is fine. I know it’s anecdotal but the batteries last longer than projected.
My 5 year estimate may actually be outdated already fortunately. First article popup about it shows 8 to 12 years now depending on the company and battery type. This is actually fantastic to see that as I was quite worried the tech would stagnate eventually.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-study-says-longer-than-you-think
I have a 2015 leaf and while the estimated battery range has gone from 90’s to 60’s on mileage, it’s still kicking and gets me around the city just fine.
You can charge any of them off a standard socket, so no, just no faster rate charging at the house.
Having a dedicated circuit installed with materials for the wire, breaker fuse, and conduit was $600 including electrician labor.
There is a universal charging standard. The ONLY company that doesn’t follow it is Tesla, but they too can use the universal chargers which also have multiple plug heads to use at source or you can carry one in your vehicle.
As for the lack of charging stations, you obviously don’t own an EV. The sheer mass of stations makes it possible to drive from 29 palms to Manhattan without worry. The cars will auto-add and find them for you on your route, and tell you which you need to hit with what charge time. You can even filter on types and cheatgrass rates for them to calculate your trip. This of all the things you stated is a tribal non issue that only gets even less with time.
There is a huge problem with charging but electrical connections and smart circuit load balanced charging at various times on the grid is easily doable in the time ranges of adoption we are seeking. There is a current chicken and the egg problem where government doesn’t invest in massive infrastructure because private companies haven’t crossed the tipping point on making it their primary focus… who haven’t done so because their customers lack the charging infrastructure and so around around it goes.
Having governmental targets like California’s are ways to break that cycle and force investment that makes public infrastructure changes viable to due to economies of scale.
It is a problem now. It doesn’t have to be.
dedicated circuit installed with materials for the wire, breaker fuse, and conduit was $600 including electrician labor
I live in a high cost of living area so getting my charger installed was quite a bit more. However, it was slightly less than the cost of the new range/oven circuit I also recently had done. So, I guess it’s as affordable as anything is here
the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc
– US has 2.5 common plugs. An old one that’s mostly gone, the standard one, and Tesla. However Tesla opened theirs as a standard, and it looks like they will be de facto standard across the US
– The protocols are compatible. The adapter for my Tesla to use the other standards is mostly plastic and dumb. You just need something to fit a different socket
– yes, the state of apps sucks. Everyone wants to maximize their profit. However I thought most non-Tesla chargers had a credit card reader, so as long as you can find it and it works, you can use it without an app. Tesla is another story, but does seem t add a lot of convenience with their app
Yeah so I looked into this little while ago and I own my own house so in theory I can put the box in. The problem is I only have on the street parking and the house is set back away from the road and there’s a garden between the road in the house.
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I’d have to run a long cable through the garden, over the fence, over the pedestrian walkway, over the grass verge and to the car. Someone is going to trip over it and then think they can sue me.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Personally? I’d have an electrician install a standing charger by the curb. I might end up doing that if my wife switches to a plug in hybrid next year.
I’m not sure how that’ll work with the easement though. But that’s future me’s problem.
Trench for an underground cable, and mount the charger on a pedestal near your car?
I don’t know about other brands but a Tesla charger can whitelist VINs to only charger your vehicle
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I’d have to run a long cable through the garden
Personally I’d replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space. Sure, it’s ugly. But it’s what billions of people around the world have.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Most cities have a plan to do that (though it might just be a plan, with no funding allocated yet)… But there are challenges - in particular vandalism. They have been more successful/cheaper to maintain (and more likely to actually work when you park there) at locations with 24/7 security guards and quick police response times.
They also prioritise short term daytime parking as it’s better to charge EVs when direct solar is available - far cheaper than other power source (except hydro, but hydro generally can’t produce enough power). And they prioritise somewhere like a shopping district where you might only park for 45 minutes allowing dozens of people to charger their car per day instead of just one overnight. Shopping districts are also setup to prevent vandalism as well (and prevention is cheaper than repairs).
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV. In fact it’s often free (or at least, included in the price of parking at the mall). It works well enough but it’s never going to be as convenient as charging at home… those parking spaces are nearly always empty in my city, even though they’re free people would rather pay for the convenience of charging overnight.
Personally I’d replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space.
Well I don’t really want to have to do that if I can help it because if I did that I wouldn’t really have a garden anymore, but also I don’t think I can anyway because there’s a grass verge and I don’t think I own that, I think the city does, and I would have to pull that up to lay the driveway.
But also if I rented I wouldn’t be able to do any of that anyway so they still need to go the street furniture route. I don’t think vandalisms are particular problem because if they put down load of them they just become common and people would ignore them. Also it’s a housing street, it’s not a random street in the city so the only people around here are people who live around here and vandalising your own stuff seems pretty dumb. I’m sure it’ll happen but I don’t think it’ll be a major problem.
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV.
In my experiences usually some prick with a pickup truck in them. Apparently it’s actually a offence to park in them if you don’t have an electric vehicle, but have yet to see the law enforce. One time I saw a cop parked in one so, there you go.
usually some prick with a pickup truck in them
Yes, but like vandalism, the best answer may be ubiquity. The asshole in the truck can’t get a kick out of offending people if they simply ignore him and goto the next chargers
They are planning to put them on streetlamps where i live. That seems like an effective idea.
Yep these are all true points, but not unexpected as with any innovation. Just like how computers were immensely expensive, and without standards for decades.
EVs are relatively new in the scope of technology. Capitalism just wants to make you think it’s an issue. In reality this is gonna take time and lack the profits every company is striving for, which to them is a failure.
Yeah, I keep reading articles saying the same thing. Auto industry and dealers complaining EV sales are slowing down, yet as you said, it’s the fastest growing category.
Of course profits aren’t as great now coming off that high during expensive fuel prices the last few years, COVID related shortages causing prices to skyrocket, etc. Not to mention inflation decreasing the value of people’s income.
Automakers also rely on dealers to sell vehicles and the dealers often make most of their money from repairs and maintenance. More than half the maintenance for ICE vehicles is just non-existent on EV’s. Not a lot of stuff to do when you get your tires rotated and your brakes checked every 5000k miles.
Dealers: We inflated the ever living shit out of the ALREADY inflated MSRP on all our EV’s during a global recession and now no one wants to buy any of them!!
Manufacturer: The customers have spoken, EV’s are dead.
Seriously, the electric f150 had a 100% markup at some dealerships. The build quality was absolute crap on those too.
The Tesla strategy
Mercedes: the EV market is challenging at the moment.
Also mercedes: pay 100k for this car with limited autonomy and dubious software in early beta stages…
Carmakers: (High) increase of the selling prices of all cars, gas/EV.
Consummers: 20k for the simplest car, without options? No thanks, we can’t afford that
You can get an electric Benz way under 100k, probably half that. 100k is S-class pricing and it has always been this high.
You made me check, the cheapest I can buy one here is 70k EUR for the EQA:
EQA is the name of the new entry-level model to the all-electric world of Mercedes-EQ vehicles.
What a bargain for an entry level model
Huh, why is no one buying it? It’s so affordable. For the low low price of ones yearly income
Yearly income is less than 70k for most Europeans. In Denmark the average income is higher, but the rest of Europe is lower, average would probably be less than 40k.
I know, it’s a joke. But it’s even more of a joke when the ev is double the yearly salery
Here’s the honest truth though. You hear Benz and you don’t think affordable car. Benz have always been fairly high priced
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More like:
“We are grossly overcharging for our product and nobody is buying… Obviously nobody wants an EV!"
Most people aren’t buying $40k+ cars? Weird.
Sadly, they are. The median new car price in the US last year was $46k.
FTFY: EVs aren’t working to rise profits and bonuses.
Auto makers: “We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas”
Bullshit. They make expensive electric cars because thats where the money was. Here in the eu tons of people want to drive electric, but at the prices they offer in this economy, they’ll only reach the wealthy.
The only reason these “c level” directors and managers are coming out and saying this is because the easy money is gone and now they really have to innovate. Which is expensive.
In the usa the poor don’t really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Poor people also can’t afford to buy brand new vehicles, so this is kind of a moot point, though something that will need to be addressed in the coming years.
Depend s in what you define poor. There is a huge segment of the population thay own leases vehicles that don’t own a home
Well I’m using the same designation of ‘poor’ as you were in the above comment. I’d say those with leased vehicles would definitely not fall into the category of poor.
Lots of people lease cars that they can’t afford and are basicly car poor. I was house poor when we bought our first house. Lots of low cost meals like pasta and bologna sandwiches so we could make payments while buying furniture and making repairs
Being car poor and house poor isn’t being poor.
Home owners and/or people getting brand new cars every 2-3 years have decent incomes and if you fall into one of these two groups while considering yourself poor, it’s because you’re overspending not because you don’t have enough income to meet the bare minimum for survival. Those are the people who are poor.
Furthermore, in your original comment you talked about poor people not having anywhere to charge their vehicle and now you’re telling me you meant homeowners who bought too much house for their income while also owning a brand new car? Give me a break. I’m sure you can find an extra $500 to have a charger installed.
In the usa the poor don’t really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
You mean to tell me “the poor” don’t have access to electricity? How poor are we talking exactly? Because I’m thinking enough money to spend, say, $30k on a brand new car… which is still pretty well off.
I mean sure, if you live in a cheap inner city apartment, then you might not have a garage to park/charge in. But I bet a lot of people in that situation have access to public transit anyway - they’re not really the target market for cars in general.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Most people charge their EV overnight. It’d be even better to charge during the day though, when electricity (can be) cheaper thanks to solar power.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Yeah you’re going to have to share a source for that. Sounds hard to believe.
In the UK, public fast chargers are mostly around the 80p/kwh Mark. With a decently light foot and getting 4 miles per kwh, that’s 20p a mile. With gas at £1.55 a litre, and a 60mpg (UK) hybrid, that’s about 12p a mile.
Home charging an ev on an appropriate tariff costs about 7p/kwh, or about 1.75p per mile.
Public charging is fucking expensive.
You realize that parking garages do not allow you to plug your car into random sockets and most don’t have sockets anywhere near the cars
Mist people who own a home or are Lucky enough to love some where that has chargers they can use you mean.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7
There was a lot of stuff in that comment that was out of touch with what it’s like to have not or have little.
People who are barely making ends meet don’t usually buy new cars. They buy used. You can get something tolerable for a hell of a lot less than 30k.
Plus, if you’re poor, there’s a good chance you live in a shitty (maybe unsafe) neighborhood. You might not have a driveway, never mind a garage. If you leave your car to charge overnight, you have to worry about some asshole unplugging it, or even taking/vandalizing the extension cord.
Maybe it is price. Maybe we all finally realized Musk is a right wing piece of shit, even worse than all the other corporate thieves.
… But Tesla is far from the only manufacturer, that produces totally overpriced and shitty EVs
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Kinda reminds me of the same argument to why businesses can’t find employees, they aren’t able to exploit them enough.
Sounds like they are asking for free government money
We really need to change our culture to support mass transit and pedestrians more. I live in a town with fantastic bus service and extensive pedestrian infrastructure, and people in my apartment complex DRIVE THEIR CARS to a gas station/liquor store they could throw a snowball to. Hell, I’ve seen people make a longer walk to their car than it would’ve taken to get to their destination.
Charging infrastructure is still pretty shit compared to refueling a gas car as well.
Yes and no.
The EV refueling infrastructure while on the road is kinda shit.
The home refueling infrastructure for gasoline cars is really, really shit.
And so if you aren’t a home owner then the ev refuling is shit.
Maybe right now but that isn’t a difficult problem to solve considering all homes have electricity readily available.
And how’d you go about it if you’re in an apartment? Lower a few extenders from your window?
Believe it or not, the electricity also runs outside under the ground.
Yeah mate just get a pickaxe, look for the ‘Buried Wires’ sign, and have at it.
What’s the landlord gonna do? It ain’t even his wires.
It’s an expensive problem to solve. Charging stations aren’t cheap nor is getting an electrician to come out and run wiring and panels for a hundred cars even if it’s just 120 then it eill take 8-12 hours for each car to charge.
I’ve lived in some places that have giant parking lots for the cars which means they have to dig it up to run wiring and create stations at each spot. That can reduce the amount of cars that can be parked which in some places would benillegal
I’ve spent time in the Midwest and most residential parking lots already have outlets all over the place for block hearers in the winter. If a tiny apartment complex in North Dakota can do it, so can everyone else.
No one said they couldn’t do it. It’s just that it isn’t done…so what happens when you buy an ev and move some where woth no charging ? I am in north jersey and I haven’t see a complex here condo or apartment that has outlets anywhere in the parking lot
Even still , unless they are 240v welcome to 2-3 miles per hour charging rate on a ev. Hope you don’t plan on traveling far.
It’s not that it isn’t done, it’s that EVs have only been on the scene for a few years and infrastructure hasn’t caught up yet. The state of things today doesn’t represent how things have always been in the past or will be in the future. When gasoline cars first came out, we didn’t have gas stations on every corner either, but the folks living in 1910 managed to figure things out. I think we can do the same.
And if you’re in a European city without off-road parking, at-home refuelling for EVs is shit too.
Yeah, but that totally makes sense if no one is buying. It’s just, that no one is buying, because automakers aren’t really interested in EVs, since gas powered have bigger margins, meaning initial manufacturing cost is lower, so they can jack the prices. When they do it with EVs it’s getting very ridiculous very fast.
Maybe in your country, here the majority of sold cars are electric. And the charging network is great. (Switzerland)
Yeah, I’m from Germany. So we are big petrol heads over here …
Also, my point was about pricing, is that different in Switzerland? I would doubt that.
Well, the majority of Swiss people drives overpriced SUVs anyway… so I guess the margins are pretty good And people here see the saving potential if you use less than 0.35 CHF/kWh 🔋 power compared the often more than 2.0 CHF/L ⛽️ power 1L of ⛽️ has about 10kWh but energy going to the street is way less compared to EV
Source: https://www.econologie.de/Energie-enthalten-in-Liter-Kraftstoff-Diesel-oder-Benzin/
Right. Thanks for sharing.
I hate the SUV trend as a whole, but especially in EVs it’s just so non-sensical. Trying to build more resourceconsious vehicles, but at the same time building them twice as big and heavy as they need to be, while trying to achieve range …
At the root of this issue is dealership exclusivity. Otherwise new companies would make them cheaper sell them privately and dominate that market. Tesla did some of this but still wanted to be premium. We need generic Tesla to come out, and the other EV companies are obsessed with premium.
While it’s a factor it probably isn’t the root of the problem. The problem is car manufacturers are building the cars faster than the market is growing and at high price points than consumers want in a time of economic difficulty and inflation.
We’re still seeing build out of electric infrastructure, expensive cars vs petrol cars, and a relatively small second hand market (which also drives infrastructure expansion). It also doesn’t help that countries are pushing back promises to ban non-EV car sales. Dealership monopolies certainly exacerbate all those problems.
This story headline is nonsense though. EVs are working and are growing. The story is actually that car companies have made expensive attempts at grabbing market share which haven’t worked and are now counting the costs. They’re delaying the rate of growth in production, not reducing production - significant difference.
The problem is charging. Wven if you being out entry level ev chars people want. Where will people who don’t own a home charge them ?
Imagine working a 9 hour shift plus your commute and then having to drive out of your way for a public charging place. Then wait 45mins + for an 80% charge. Then imagine the few charging spots at the location being full so you have to wait even longer to charge it
I think the pricing is actually fine for the cars because people who are going to actually buy an ev would be shopping for an ice car in the same proce range. Those who would buy a lower price range would face way more hurdles while owning an ev
I have a buddy who does this and it’s not as bad as you make it seem. Once a week or so, he goes to a supercharger for an hour or so to top off. Obviously it all depends on your daily usage and the range of the vehicle but it’s just not this huge personal tragedy people describe it as. It’s a minor hassle to sit around for an hour once a week
It’s an hour I would have had to spend doing anything else though, and with limited time already I’d rather not spend an hour sat doing nothing waiting for my car to charge.
I’m sure that’s a factor, but I’m pretty skeptical that it’s the root
The elites don’t want you to know this, but you can be personally responsible for getting your city off of car addiction.
