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100%. Most business is just advanced sophistry at this point. Marketing and advertising serves a useful purpose for new products, when the market isn’t aware that it exists.
But by quantity and cost, most advertising is just social manipulation and is effectively an extra drain on the economy.
And that’s just the last three years!
Juan, YOU are the man! 💪
Plus people forget that if they use iCloud Apple can also see all your data in the same way Google can if you use a Google account
They can see your encrypted data. What’s the issue with that?
Only to say it’s the same with Google. The data is also encrypted. So they want to point the finger and say how much Google collects, but so do they.
Not exactly true. If you enable “Advanced Data Protection” not even apple can look at your data (with the exception of data which has to be interoperable like calendars and mail)
I’m sure the Google is also encrypting the data with the exception of the interoperable data. So there’s no difference. Why point fingers when Apple do the same?
Apple also know your browsing history. They also know your app usage. They also store your contacts, calendar, photos - just like Google. I don’t see the difference.
Apple already can’t look at most of your data. Advanced Data Protection makes it so they can’t see any of it.
Yeah yeah, wake me up when you can unlock the bootloader on apple phones.
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What do you mean by get pretty close?
Having to log into a Google account that uniquely identifies you across all your devices and milks you of every single data it can put its filthy hands on?
I am an android user but honestly between the two I think Apple is the lesser evil
(If you buy a suitable device) You don’t have to use the preloaded OS (see Graphrne, Lineage etc).
Yes I know but that’s clearly not what the previous guy was talking about
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Yup, the logic people use to call Apple phones secure would put Fisher Price toy phones at the S-Tier of security.
TL;DR: the slide is from 2013, everybody calm your pants.
One damn iPhone in my home network makes most calls home out of anything in my home network. I cn see it in AdGuard Home log.
I also can see this on router with Gargoyle firmware
Buying or updating an app requires system-wide sign in
Only if one uses the official play store. Which apple does not understand, ofc.
does not understandDoes not want to understand
Yeah, but Android doesn’t make me constantly enter my password to do basic things. Also, Apple takes away a lot of control from their consumers.
I’ll take the phone that isn’t dumbed down tyvm
Ideally you shouldn’t have to compromise. GrapheneOS without Google is an option.
It literally isn’t - Graphene only supports Google Pixel phones.
You’ve apparently missed the point. Graphene exists solely to harden security and privacy by disabling the googly parts of the phone. That is clearly what was meant by “without Google”
You can do that without Graphene though
And?
Graphene is is way over hyped. You can basically the same thing with lineage os. The key is just not using gsf
But then you can’t use any apps that require Play Services. The killer feature of GrapheneOS is letting you run Play Services in a sandbox.
Unlocked bootloader is considered a vulnerability tho
But if your threats model is toxic Tim, satya and sundar, it will do the job just fine.
The kids need to use their buzzwords though
And how do you know there aren’t hardware level trackers in Google’s chips? The kind Graphene can’t override? Do you trust Google not to do that?
Because this will get .001% more total data considering the low number of GrapheneOS users. Besides, this is highly illegal and would result in significant public outcry and legal consequences far greater in cost than any potential benefits.
And if you cannot trust Google with their processors, you cannot trust any other company either.
Because all of that has stopped OEMs in the past…oh wait! No it hasn’t (looks at Lenovo)
The people who install Graphene and other modified Android variants on their devices are a lot more likely to be monitoring packets sent from their devices.
Believe me, we’d know the same day an android device that had been de-Googled called home. That would make worldwide news.
Yeah I trust them not to do it. Cause when it was found out not if when it would hurt them.
Ultimately you can’t know everything. At some point you have to trust someone. The graphene people seem to know they are doing imo. Ultimately everything is flawed, you just have to know when to say "good enough ". The pixel hardware is pretty great imo and they are often cheap, so I think it’s worth considering them given that they can be hardened in various ways.
Just use Lineage os
I want to like Lineage, but while it doesn’t come with extra bloat, the system itself doesn’t do a whole lot of degoogling core services
Or literally and other custom ROM based on aosc or lineage os
Very true.
+1 for Lineage, been using them since they forked from cyanogenmod
GrapheneOS still takes away a bit of control though. Mainly in that it’s locked down for privacy in some ways that you can’t disable
@soulfirethewolf @ijeff its biggest lockdown is the security model, which even though it won’t disallow you from doing anything you couldn’t otherwise do (if you’re motivated enough), it draws the line of tradeoffs to make. I gave up rooting and a lot of stuff (like contactless payments) for it’s security and stability, and I’m fine with that, but you should ask yourself if that’s worth it for you. If you have to go out of your way to break the security model, even once, then it isn’t for you.
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Oh irony, thy name is Apple.
I used to sell apple gear at a reseller. They literally used to send messages to our customers for applecare.
The difference is that Apple simply uses the data for it’s own benefit and competes against everyone (including people developing for their system)
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Apple simply uses the data for it’s own benefit
So… like Google
Definitely not saying Google is any better.
But don’t forget, Apple gets billions of dollars from Google too, to be default webpage… So they’re totally complicit, and in practice, they’re effectively selling your user data to google.
The biggest issue with Apple has always been their dodgy marketing. 20 years ago, they were living off the incorrect claim that “MacOS can’t get Viruses”, and now, seems to be just as dodgy with privacy.
At the end of the day, being as big as they are makes both of them malicious, manipulative and exploitative per default, otherwise they wouldn’t be multi-billion or even trillion dollar companies in the first place.
“only when it provides a better customer service” Hahaha. That’s so vague that it is completely meaningless.
Yes, but if you put graphene on a pixel it’s miles beyond an iphone
Congratulations to you and the other 0.000000001% of Android users then.
0.000000001%
This implies the existence of 100 billion Android users, that is roughly 13 times the number of people alive.
I would like to think that the percentage of users who have grapheneOS is maybe 5% of the pixel population. I’m just pulling a number out of my ass right now but basically a lot of people who want the very best privacy and security go for graphene which is limited to only Pixels even though there are more cool phones like the fp5.
Lineage is by far the most popular custom ROM and it has about 3.2 million active devices. Which is about nothing in comparison to 1.22 billion smartphones sold alone in 2022. Barely anyone uses third party ROMs.
There are some people who use other roms like Lineage without the google apps. It’s not as good as Graphene but it’s better than the OEM version that comes with the phones.
They’re not wrong. Its just they aren’t the perfect solution
I don’t think they want to be. I just think they want to fragment Android. I agree with them.
The fall of android would be the fall of the only reliable open os for phones. I’m not seeing many custom roms for privacy based on iOS.
Opening a space for an OS fork led by a consortium of mobile phone manufacturers that don’t have a vested interest in supporting their ad and tracking business would be an overall benefit. Google sees value in android only for that, and that’s a major problem.
Clearly this was before Apple became one of the largest advertising companies.
Well, it’s not like Apple doesn’t also collect pretty hair-raising information on you. Go digging through some of the sqlite databases on your machine and you’ll find eg. a social graph that even supports labels for things like political affiliations (I think this db was the one used by their ominously named “intelligence platform” service). Another db (which I think was for the
knowledgeddaemon) has an incredibly detailed log of everything you do on your computer and phone, including eg. web URLs and millisecond granularity events on when you interact with your devices. Whether that social graph or all that other stuff ever leaves your devices is unknown (although eg. theknowledgedstuff definitely does since I can see events for my phone on my laptop), but I wouldn’t count on it not being sent to Apple – regardless of what they claim.And yeah, sure, this is all to make “customer experience” better, but do you seriously believe that’s all they will be used for?
Edit: and just as a side note, I’m not basing these claims on stuff I read online, but on actually having looked at the contents of those databases myself
Could you cite the source for those dbs?
Sure!
~/Library/IntelligencePlatform(associated withintelligenceplatformd) has a bunch withgraph.dbbeing the social graph, but with others likebehaviors.dbandeventLog.dbalso likely being relevant, and I thinkontology.dbwas the one where they kept more information on the tags available for the social graph.~/Library/Application\ Support/Knowledge/knowledgeC.db(associated with Spotlight’sknowledgeconstructiond, which I think used to be calledknowledgedin earlier versions) has the other stuff I mentioned.There’s also some system-level things in eg.
/var/db/knowledgegraphd/but I haven’t bothered looking into those yet because it’d require disabling SIP.Ok, I’m just gonna come out and say it - I messed up.
I clearly have no idea what you’re saying, and I don’t even know why I expected anything even remotely simple to understand.
I apologise for wasting your time, but thank you so much for this comment, however pointless it may seem now.
Oh you didn’t waste my time at all, no worries. It’s not like copy-pasting those paths from my terminal was all that much work, and it’d definitely have been better if I’d included that info right from the start. Unfortunately I couldn’t give any blog posts etc as a source, because as I said it was all based on my own poking around in those databases, but at least I could say where the databases were so others could do some poking around of their own if they wanted to
Makes sense… Thanks alot for the nice response 🫡.
They are not wrong
They are not wrong
The best lies have a bit of truth in them, by making a factual statement and then deliberately coming to a wrong conclusion. They are wrong when the second half of the claim is that Apple is somehow any different. There is tracking and analytics everywhere in Apple systems. They don’t need to formally tie the Apple ID to other tracking methods when they can just use other means to find out that two connections come from the same device.
At least in the Android world there at least is the option to go fully free of Google Services. There is no iOS Open Source Project that includes everything but a few things.
You’re making huge assumptions based on a single slide that doesn’t state it’s own conclusion. To me this easily is showing that Apple limits how data is used compared to Google, it doesn’t try to show that Apple doesn’t track you.
It’s from 2013 Apple has got way more into ads since then.
You’re making huge assumptions based on a single slide that doesn’t state it’s own conclusion.
I’m making assumptions based on the fact that it’s a slide from an internal presentation. Since it’s an internal presentation, it’s about displaying Apple in the best possible light to its employees… employees who may think to accept job offers from Google.
Again you’re assuming that’s what the target is.
Again you’re assuming that’s what the target is.
Yes, I literally wrote “I’m making assumptions based on the fact that…”.
Which is 100% speculation on your part. Given this was from 2013 and Apple went on to advertise privacy publicly, it stand to reason it’s more about how they could market their product based on the truth of what they don’t do compared to Google than some sort of employee retention or spin.
Which is 100% speculation on your part.
No, the slide being part of an internal Apple presentation is not speculation at all and going from that verified fact, it’s absolutely fair to make educated assumptions based on that. Nowhere it I claim that my comment is 100% fact. You don’t seem to get this in your head.
it stand to reason it’s more about how they could market their product
100% speculation.
was this old (the google logo is the old one so i’m not sure) or was apple just uninformed?
you can have all sorts of multiple accounts in the control panel, mail and calendar all have on device log ons, you can update apps outside of the app store or use the google play store with your google account the same way you do with your apple account.
Five words into the article says
Apple’s internal presentation from 2013
Literally at the top under TL;DR
Dang you’re so helpful :)
Given how they operate internally at the engineering level, probably just Apple being uninformed. The internal culture is total brainwash. Apple tech is the only tech. It is partly why they genuinely think they created technologies. They never stick their head out of the fruit to see what the world around them has, and they have a habit of buy, cheat, or steal to ensure their monopoly continues.
Maybe an interesting sociological experiment? How technology evolves in a cult versus outside the cult back in the real world?
