A lot of the funds go to strange projects, such as building luxurious hotel with solar panel, and even fossil fuel plants that are somehow considered green.
Nicaragua was right not to sign the 2015 Paris climate deal because they correctly believe it doesn’t go far enough. Governments, businesses and people have to be held accountable if we are serious about this.
Okay, when I talk about mutual aid and mycelial networks of resistance, I am talking about materially undermining those institutions that you seem to think we can hold accountable.
States & corporations are not going to do their part. I am talking about fighting a class war. They are not on our side in any way.
All this talk about everybody doing their part to recycle or whatever is part of the problem, because it distracts us. Instead of fighting against them, you seem to think they can be brought to heel, that we can work with them. That’s simply never going to happen.
While I agree that corporations are scum, we still need some form of governance to manage and actually implement net zero emissions on a global scale. If you are advocating for anarchism, I have a bridge to sell.
I share the same disdain of authority as you, but I would be an anarchist if I weren’t a social democrat.
I am advocating for anarchism, which is the basic principle that we should liberate ourselves from structures of domination by building horizontal power structures that undermine them.
There really is no reason why dominance hierarchies need to be involved. There are plenty of places in the world where horizontalist power structures have displaced the state, and many, many more where the mycelial networks of resistance are growing but are simply not yet openly visible. There is someone local to you who you could join and improve life locally now, and begin laying the groundwork for liberation. I can almost guarantee it.
If you advocate for the state, then you are advocating for your own domination by something you yourself have admitted is corrupt. If you ever think these corrupt structures whose whole purpose is to disempower you can be used for good, then you might be the bridge buyer.
Anarchism sounds great if you’re a college freshman, but in reality that will devolve into even less progress than we currently have. Obviously there’s no perfect solution, but anarchism has never and will never work at any kind of scale that matters. We need to purge the corruption from our current system and heavily reform it, but at the end of the day it’s going to make more progress than a bunch of screaming college kids.
Oh wow “anarchism is for babies lol” is definitely something I’ve never heard. That’s devastating, I’m going to completely change my whole political outlook.
There are plenty of examples of it working at scale. Let me know if you want more information.
I would love to know where it actually worked at scale, because I’m at least decently well educated in history and I’ve never heard of one instance. The key word here is “scale” by the way, it’s important how you define that.
For some reason your reply never showed up in my notifications. Anyway, I just looked at these. Rojava has explicitly been labeled not anarchist but democratic-confederalism with liberal tendencies. They didn’t do much in terms of running a country or region since 2011 but I’ll read up more on this.
CNT FAI is a union with at most 1.6 million for a few years in the first half of 20th century, that’s neither an actual implementation of anarchism, nor a scale where it is relevant. However once you get to several millions and last for a long time governing (or whatever you want to call it) in a country is when I’d give it some points.
EZLN like you said isn’t even anarchist. I think you like the concept of libertarian socialism, which I also think has some merits if very carefully implemented. The general concept of local leaders controlling their own territory makes sense for the most part, but the problem is how they all are organized to work together.
The reason that these ideally anarchist societies (I say ideally because in theory that is how it should work) only developed is because they live close enough to each other to form similar culture and values.
However, you would notice that these ideally anarchist societies are being oppressed or at war with a bigger other societies. It is a common observation as to why anarchism won’t work. A bigger and more war-like society will always try to bully and fight another society if the latter is deemed weak. Like I said on another comment, this is literally anarchism in action.
I concur with the other person that it has to do with scale. Groups living close together may develop ideally anarchist societies. But if you are from such a peaceful grouping and go far enough, the other group from afar may not share the same values as you. Tribalism is still a pervasive natural issue after all, in spite of humans doing all we can to deviate from what we might consider flaws of evolution.
Anarchism assumes independent, self-organising societies working together on mutual understanding and cooperation. What do you think nation states are and doing now?
Just like communism, anarchism sounds good in theory but in practice does not work and empirically deviate entirely-- almost perversely different from the concept. They only work on a small scale with people of who are like-minded and similar culture to respect each others boundaries. Issues as wide reaching as climate change requires global scale solution; and not everyone thinks the same. It doesn’t matter if you and I organise locally, if groups on the other side of the world are not pulling their weight to combat climate change. Going back to my initial comment, sure we both save water, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what is lost to pipe leaks or even other people using water excessively and needlessly. As we speak, some people in Arizona and China are playing golf, and golf parks always need constant watering. Those gallons water used in golf parks could be used to something more productive instead. Good luck with your community telling Arizonan and Chinese golfers to stop wasting water. I am guessing you did not even read the article on rich countries giving money to poorer countries to help mitigate the climate change, but poorer countries spend them elsewhere, even though they are the ones who beg for funds to help with transition to clean energy.
Maybe anarchism on global scale will work one day (I sure hope so), but it will take probably couple of hundreds of years of advancement in technology and communication to allow for cultural exchange that would permeate across the world, and thus lead to having a common global culture to facilitate the system. But at the moment, anarchism would not work to solve climate change. That is literally what is happening right now.
Nations states are dominance hierarchies, they are not self-organising and they do not depend on mutual understanding or cooperation. They depend on establishing a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. Look at any law in a nation state. Push hard enough against it and you will find the barrel of a gun.
These laws are not established by consent, they are established by a ruling class that is mainly beholden to wealthy and powerful interests, far more than it is beholden to the rest of the people. That is not cooperation. There is science to back this up if you want it.
Anarchism is working in plenty of places where it has displaced the dominant state, and apart from that there are many groups that are absolutely “pulling their weight” as you call it.
Look at indigenous land defender movements all over the world, they have as a key part of their movements environmental conservation and combating climate change. In my country Gurridyula is an indigenous black rapper who sings about the years he’s spent with his group living out on the land keeping the coal company Adani from mining there. He’s fighting legal battles on one side and literally facing up against massive groups of police on the other. Is he pulling his weight? The state is trying to force him off his land so they can mine for more coal to drive climate change.
This is a common thread in decentralised resistance groups everywhere.
People aren’t stupid, if we didn’t have states sending cops to oppress us and physically stop us from tearing these corporations to pieces we would’ve done it long ago. The idea that you need a state to convince people to work in their best interests is absurd.
The fact you don’t know about this resistance is emblematic of hierarchical programming. There is a lot more out there than you realise. I tried to tell you that, but you just keep on insisting that it simply doesn’t exist. It’s really strange.
There is a tipping point on the way. Two years ago most people didn’t know what the fediverse was but it’s slowly spreading, like a mycelial network of resistance, and now John Oliver is talking about it. Once it gets to some percentage of mainstream adoption I think it’s going to tip.
Anarchism follows the same strategy. Did you know that federation as the fediverse practices it is literally an anarchist method? That practice of federation is how local cells link up and support one another.
So if you want an example of anarchism working, just look at this platform.
Anarchism works with consent from people, nation states are built with consent from people. Problem is, various groups do not agree with each other. Like I said, good luck telling Chinese and Arizonan golfers to stop wasting water and pull their weight. I am sure they will stop because they care about the environment same as you and I. As I mentioned to another comment, you and I may agree, but other groups from afar don’t and don’t care because they have different values. Some believe in peace, others are war-like. This is anarchism already in action whether you admit it or not.
Funding for global climate change has no oversight and is rife with corruption.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/climate-change-finance/
A lot of the funds go to strange projects, such as building luxurious hotel with solar panel, and even fossil fuel plants that are somehow considered green.
Nicaragua was right not to sign the 2015 Paris climate deal because they correctly believe it doesn’t go far enough. Governments, businesses and people have to be held accountable if we are serious about this.
Okay, when I talk about mutual aid and mycelial networks of resistance, I am talking about materially undermining those institutions that you seem to think we can hold accountable.
States & corporations are not going to do their part. I am talking about fighting a class war. They are not on our side in any way.
All this talk about everybody doing their part to recycle or whatever is part of the problem, because it distracts us. Instead of fighting against them, you seem to think they can be brought to heel, that we can work with them. That’s simply never going to happen.
While I agree that corporations are scum, we still need some form of governance to manage and actually implement net zero emissions on a global scale. If you are advocating for anarchism, I have a bridge to sell.
I share the same disdain of authority as you, but I would be an anarchist if I weren’t a social democrat.
I am advocating for anarchism, which is the basic principle that we should liberate ourselves from structures of domination by building horizontal power structures that undermine them.
There really is no reason why dominance hierarchies need to be involved. There are plenty of places in the world where horizontalist power structures have displaced the state, and many, many more where the mycelial networks of resistance are growing but are simply not yet openly visible. There is someone local to you who you could join and improve life locally now, and begin laying the groundwork for liberation. I can almost guarantee it.
If you advocate for the state, then you are advocating for your own domination by something you yourself have admitted is corrupt. If you ever think these corrupt structures whose whole purpose is to disempower you can be used for good, then you might be the bridge buyer.
Anarchism sounds great if you’re a college freshman, but in reality that will devolve into even less progress than we currently have. Obviously there’s no perfect solution, but anarchism has never and will never work at any kind of scale that matters. We need to purge the corruption from our current system and heavily reform it, but at the end of the day it’s going to make more progress than a bunch of screaming college kids.
Oh wow “anarchism is for babies lol” is definitely something I’ve never heard. That’s devastating, I’m going to completely change my whole political outlook.
There are plenty of examples of it working at scale. Let me know if you want more information.
I would love to know where it actually worked at scale, because I’m at least decently well educated in history and I’ve never heard of one instance. The key word here is “scale” by the way, it’s important how you define that.
Rojava. CNT FAI historically. The EZLN is horizontalist, although they do not describe themselves as anarchist but as an indigenous movement.
Millions of people in each.
For some reason your reply never showed up in my notifications. Anyway, I just looked at these. Rojava has explicitly been labeled not anarchist but democratic-confederalism with liberal tendencies. They didn’t do much in terms of running a country or region since 2011 but I’ll read up more on this.
CNT FAI is a union with at most 1.6 million for a few years in the first half of 20th century, that’s neither an actual implementation of anarchism, nor a scale where it is relevant. However once you get to several millions and last for a long time governing (or whatever you want to call it) in a country is when I’d give it some points.
EZLN like you said isn’t even anarchist. I think you like the concept of libertarian socialism, which I also think has some merits if very carefully implemented. The general concept of local leaders controlling their own territory makes sense for the most part, but the problem is how they all are organized to work together.
The reason that these ideally anarchist societies (I say ideally because in theory that is how it should work) only developed is because they live close enough to each other to form similar culture and values.
However, you would notice that these ideally anarchist societies are being oppressed or at war with a bigger other societies. It is a common observation as to why anarchism won’t work. A bigger and more war-like society will always try to bully and fight another society if the latter is deemed weak. Like I said on another comment, this is literally anarchism in action.
I concur with the other person that it has to do with scale. Groups living close together may develop ideally anarchist societies. But if you are from such a peaceful grouping and go far enough, the other group from afar may not share the same values as you. Tribalism is still a pervasive natural issue after all, in spite of humans doing all we can to deviate from what we might consider flaws of evolution.
Anarchism by basic definition is a collective of self-organising society. What do you think nation state governments are?
This is wrong on every point.
Your definition of anarchism is wrong.
Nation states are not anarchistic.
Nation states are not “self-organising”.
Let me know if you have any actual questions about any of this.
Anarchism assumes independent, self-organising societies working together on mutual understanding and cooperation. What do you think nation states are and doing now?
Just like communism, anarchism sounds good in theory but in practice does not work and empirically deviate entirely-- almost perversely different from the concept. They only work on a small scale with people of who are like-minded and similar culture to respect each others boundaries. Issues as wide reaching as climate change requires global scale solution; and not everyone thinks the same. It doesn’t matter if you and I organise locally, if groups on the other side of the world are not pulling their weight to combat climate change. Going back to my initial comment, sure we both save water, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what is lost to pipe leaks or even other people using water excessively and needlessly. As we speak, some people in Arizona and China are playing golf, and golf parks always need constant watering. Those gallons water used in golf parks could be used to something more productive instead. Good luck with your community telling Arizonan and Chinese golfers to stop wasting water. I am guessing you did not even read the article on rich countries giving money to poorer countries to help mitigate the climate change, but poorer countries spend them elsewhere, even though they are the ones who beg for funds to help with transition to clean energy.
Maybe anarchism on global scale will work one day (I sure hope so), but it will take probably couple of hundreds of years of advancement in technology and communication to allow for cultural exchange that would permeate across the world, and thus lead to having a common global culture to facilitate the system. But at the moment, anarchism would not work to solve climate change. That is literally what is happening right now.
Nations states are dominance hierarchies, they are not self-organising and they do not depend on mutual understanding or cooperation. They depend on establishing a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. Look at any law in a nation state. Push hard enough against it and you will find the barrel of a gun.
These laws are not established by consent, they are established by a ruling class that is mainly beholden to wealthy and powerful interests, far more than it is beholden to the rest of the people. That is not cooperation. There is science to back this up if you want it.
Anarchism is working in plenty of places where it has displaced the dominant state, and apart from that there are many groups that are absolutely “pulling their weight” as you call it.
Look at indigenous land defender movements all over the world, they have as a key part of their movements environmental conservation and combating climate change. In my country Gurridyula is an indigenous black rapper who sings about the years he’s spent with his group living out on the land keeping the coal company Adani from mining there. He’s fighting legal battles on one side and literally facing up against massive groups of police on the other. Is he pulling his weight? The state is trying to force him off his land so they can mine for more coal to drive climate change.
This is a common thread in decentralised resistance groups everywhere.
People aren’t stupid, if we didn’t have states sending cops to oppress us and physically stop us from tearing these corporations to pieces we would’ve done it long ago. The idea that you need a state to convince people to work in their best interests is absurd.
The fact you don’t know about this resistance is emblematic of hierarchical programming. There is a lot more out there than you realise. I tried to tell you that, but you just keep on insisting that it simply doesn’t exist. It’s really strange.
There is a tipping point on the way. Two years ago most people didn’t know what the fediverse was but it’s slowly spreading, like a mycelial network of resistance, and now John Oliver is talking about it. Once it gets to some percentage of mainstream adoption I think it’s going to tip.
Anarchism follows the same strategy. Did you know that federation as the fediverse practices it is literally an anarchist method? That practice of federation is how local cells link up and support one another.
So if you want an example of anarchism working, just look at this platform.
Anarchism works with consent from people, nation states are built with consent from people. Problem is, various groups do not agree with each other. Like I said, good luck telling Chinese and Arizonan golfers to stop wasting water and pull their weight. I am sure they will stop because they care about the environment same as you and I. As I mentioned to another comment, you and I may agree, but other groups from afar don’t and don’t care because they have different values. Some believe in peace, others are war-like. This is anarchism already in action whether you admit it or not.