Not gonna lie, I just assumed it was the IDF doing some shady shit, maybe on accident, maybe not, but now that it’s clear it was all Hamas propaganda it’s nothing but crickets.
While this hospital thing is horrible, so is everything else about this war. I’ve seen ppl hung up on “who did the hospital” so much… It doesn’t fucking matter. It’s completely irrelevant what uniform the blokes commiting a specific war crime wear. For now, that is. The murder needs to stop and the good ol’ blame game will not bring us any closer to that. On the contrary. It will create division, fueling the gruesome flames of “but my war crime was justified, electric boogaloo”
I disagree with your claim that knowing who is committing the violence doesn’t matter. I think it is very important to know as much of the truth as possible behind every act of violence. More information and more intelligence allows for better decisions to be made. And knowing the truth is the only way to hold the correct parties accountable.
You misread what I wrote. I didn’t say “it doesn’t matter”. I said “it doesn’t matter for now”. Because it indeed does matter, just not while there is a war to be stopped. As sad as it is “hospital blown up in warzone” is one of the atrocities that are to be expected, so it won’t play any major role in solving this conflict.
That’s like suggesting someone blindfold themselves before entering an obstacle course and then saying to take it off and look behind them once they’ve successfully navigated to the other side.
This scenario isn’t a teenage drama caused by Brad allegedly kissing Stacy behind the bleachers when he already told Ashley he’d go to the Halloween dance with her. This isn’t a “can’t we all just hug it out” situation.
This is grown up real shit.
I did not say “let’s forget this hospital, folks, shake hands already”. I said that getting super hung up on who commited which war crime to then somehow have a side that was “right” or “righter” than the others is pointless. Yet, that’s what happened with this hospital thing. People used it as a proxy to hash out which side should be supported because the conflict’s roots are too complicated to discern that. Yet, the reason why the conflict’s roots aren’t giving you any side to support is exactly what I’m saying: Trying to establish a good and a bad side in a conflict like this is pointless. Are the Hamas-attackers cruel, raping, murdering monsters? Yep. Are the people who decided to cut off food, water, electricty for millions and then bomb those millions for the foul deeds of those monster better? Nope.
Sometimes, there is no side to be had. So getting hung up on who did what specifically is a matter for courts after this horrible bullshit is over… if it is ever over…
You’re jumping to an extreme conclusion by thinking that attempting to cut through the fog of war… Establishing fact, and discerning signal from noise is merely for the purposes of trying to establish some kind of moral hierarchy.
You’re fucking full of bullshit. You sit here and say “both sides are wrong” or whatever then proceed to tell everyone how bad Israel is.
You’re clearly taking sides and pushing one narrative while at the same time claiming to be objective and even-handed and fair or whatever, and we’re here to call you out in it.
You hate Israel, you hate Jews, you support the Palestinians desire to eradicate them. Just come clean and then go join the Nazi party. We beat you assholes once and we’ll do it again.
The only thing that bothers me with this sentiment is I’m only hearing it now that it seems like it was Hamas not IDF, it feels insincere. I have no team in this shit show though.
The fucked up part is, that even in warfare there are some made-up rules that mark killing one person (civilian) a warcrime and killing the other person (another soldier or terrorist) somehow be okay. I do understand the necessity of defining those rules, because otherwise even more cruel weapons would be used more often and so on. Yet, often killed civilians are considered as “collateral damage” (from the Killers point of view anyway). But those “warcrimes” are common practice on all sides, nevertheless.
I prefer to hold it with “What if they give a war and nobody came?” And wish more people would.
Edit: with the last sentence I mean, I wish more people would live peaceful - not that more people would go to war! Just for clarification, because it sounded wrong, how I wrote it. Sorry, for bad English.
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You’re a pussy who can’t admit that you’re wrong and can’t come to terms with the fact that you’ve been siding with the bad guys this whole time.
You should be a politician.
Your really “friendly” and not at all rude answer undermines my argument beautifully. Couldn’t have made up a better example.
It’s just that your top comment perfectly illustrates OPs meme. Like fucking perfectly. We’re constantly hearing on Lemmy about how terrible Israel is and how they’re terrorists with unending acerbic vitriol; but as soon as we learn it wasn’t them, but Hamas/Palestine, you’re all like, “the hospital doesn’t matter anyway.”
I’m fuckin tired of it and I’m pissed, so yeah, I’m not being friendly at all. Get a backbone and say you’re wrong about Israel being the bad guys here, or STFU.
Whataboutism at its finest
This is literally the opposite of whataboutism…
you should read up on whataboutism. You can have a different oppinion, but this is not whataboutism. Like… at all.
Rails against disinformation then puts disinformation in their meme. To be clear saying the Palestinians did it, in the meme, is the disinformation as it would have been Hamas. And they do not represent all Palestinians.
That is the first thing that jumped out to me as well. I’ve made several posts sympathetic to Israel, but islamist jihad (the group seemingly responsible) isn’t representative of Palestinians and isn’t even part of Hamas.
I know it takes some effort to get caught up on the history and factions in the region, but I wish people would refrain from making statements without that effort.
My heart bleeds for the Palestinian civilians caught up in this hell.
It’s a shit situation and yeah the everyday people have been paying the price. Was flipping through the radio stations in the car and this disk jocky was like ‘those animals blew up their’ and I kept switching stations. The dehumanization of an oppressed peoples just to be all ‘USA! USA!’. Ugh.
islamist jihad isnt even part of Hamas
Article 15 of the 2017 Hamas Charter
The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
🤔
The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is a Sunni Islamist militant group seeking to establish an Islamist Palestinian state that is committed to the destruction of Israel. It is the second-largest militant group in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, founded in 1979 as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The group has drawn inspiration from the Iranian revolution and receives support from Iran, Syria, and Lebanese Hizballah. PIJ’s military wing, al-Quds Brigades, has been responsible for many attacks on Israeli targets since the 1990s. PIJ sometimes operates in coordination with HAMAS, although the groups have had a tense relationship because PIJ occasionally disagrees with HAMAS’s strategy for confronting Israel. – source
I have no idea if you are in agreement or disagreement. All i did was read the charter and it seems like you went into conspiracy mode.
Edit: oh shit my bad I just connected the dots in my brain. You were talking about PIJ where I thought they were talking about jihad in general. Nvm
Conspiracy mode? I was trying to point out to you that the jihad in Islamic Jihad references a very specific group in Gaza and not the generic jihad.
Yeah we are on the same page
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Aren’t Hamas Palestinean?
They’re a subset of Palestinians, like Italians are a subset of Europeans. All Italian citizens are Europeans, but not all Europeans are Italian.
Yeah exactly. So it’s not incorrect at all to say Palestinians did it.
No, it’s not incorrect. I didn’t know how much you knew, so I tried to clarify things.
Lemmiest Lemmy to ever Lemmy lol
Yeah, sort of like how many Nazis were German around WW2.
They’re literally the elected party
Even Israel isn’t saying Hamas did it. They’re blaming Islamic Jihad.
Does that mean that you always completely agree with whatever political party is in power? Of course not. Neither do Palestinians.
Elected in 2006. Most Palestinians alive today weren’t of voting age in 2006, as the average age is 18 years old. An election hasn’t been held since, so it’s hard to describe them as an elected party.
Yep. Vote fascists in to power and be surprised when they do fascist shit. It never ceases to amaze me when leftists support fascists.
We should judge civilians by the leaders they elect, because elections are always fair, right? Weird that we don’t seem to hold Russian citizens to the same standard as the citizens of Gaza, even though Putin is even more popular in Russia than Hamas is in Palestine.
It was never going to matter which way it turned out. If Israel did it, people were gonna hate them for it. If it’s true that Israel didn’t do it, then people will find a reason to blame them for it anyways. If people were able to bend over backwards to excuse Hamas for slaughtering 1000+ people in a single day, then Hamas blowing up their own hospital is nothing. It’s not as if Israel is the good guy or anything though, there’s just so much horrible shit happening all over this thing.
What you need to understand is that people have different sources of information based on multiple different characteristics like native language and religion and those who share similar views tend to fall in favor of their let’s say “colleagues” because other side of the river even if it better and right still considered to be rival and therefore untrustworthy and bad.
Also to notice, it is still Israel who actually shells Gaza with rockets while not all citizens escaped the city. So, people know there are rockets being targeted at people and it is easier for them to believe that one of the rockets might focus hospital.
As much as I hate the assholes who excuse Hamas, the focus on trying to influence Isreal makes sense. Countries like the US give Israel weapons using taxpayer money, and Israel has much better funding in general. They had way more power in trying to broker a peace, but decades of making life worse for Palestinians and refusing to back a coexisting Palestinians state let Hamas and other reactionaries take power. They made peaceful seem improvement impossible, thus making violence look like the only option.
The US could theoretically stop buying bombs that kill children, but that won’t happen because Republicans salivate at the thought of dead brown people and Jews. Even most Democrats aren’t willing to tell Israel to not commit genocide, as they recognize the importance of a Middle Eastern ally or think Israel has no other choice. We have some minor influence over Israel, but negative influence over Hamas. We should do what we can to hurt Hamas while still trying to lower the heat through Israel. It’s the best we can do.
Hamas has a pass, Israel doesn’t. And that says a lot.
No, Hamas doesn’t have a pass. It is more like “It isn’t like Israel is getting fucked over every day and having no international support, unlike Palestinian civilians” situation. Hence the more emphasis on Israeli cruelty towards Palestinian civilians here.
None of us are having “oops, Hamas failed rocket, they have only scraps to wage their freedom fights anyway so it is normal” type of attitude here. Fuck Hamas for having no regard for both Palestinian and Israeli civilian lives.
Go fuck yourself. There are people who give Hamas a pass AND people who give Israel a pass. Most reasonable people recognize to some extent that Hamas and the current Israeli government are selfish, theocratic fascists that don’t care about the well-being of the people they supposedly represent. They both want to genocide eachother more than they want to help their own citizens.
Then let me be the first to say it, I do apologize.
At the time, Israel had given hospitals in the region 2 hours to evacuate. People like myself overly panicked, not only because this is a war crime, but it would look bad on the world stage.
And look at that, it did look bad on the world stage. Lucky us!
It also didn’t help that an Israeli official at the time, not only praised the attack, but claimed responsibility. The tweet was then deleted. I should have taken it as a hint, but in the world of the blind, the one eye man is king.
So what would people think? Well, I’ll tell you what I thought, that Israel had done what they claimed they were about to do a bit early. But if I do require introspection, I probably should have waited before passing judgement, or only assuming there were only two factions in the region.
‘clear’ according to the IDF? some other western intelligence org? clear to people with a vested interest in that narrative?
as far as i’ve seen there’s been no trustworthy analysis of it and i doubt there ever will be.
Al-Jazeera released a piece recently recounting the evidence. It basically amounts to “It’s very questionable that it was an Israeli airstrike, and all available evidence currently points towards a failed rocket”
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Fog of war. Information changes rapidly in such a scenario.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion
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aljazeera has also been under threat of shut down in israel for the last few days. not saying that report is wrong, just important to take the whole context into account.
And Israel’s been caught bombing hospitals in the past and is still currently bombing civilians.
Context does matter.
Yes that’s what a totally free and democratic state would do!
Al Jazeera is nominally a propaganda arm of a foreign government. Its US branch, for instance, was geoblocked in its “home” country because it was actually good journalism, rather than a propaganda feed like RT.
This is not such a simple matter as “government shutting down reporting.”
Why are you watching Aljazeera and expecting anything else but israel-bashing
Here’s a good article: https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206795861/heres-the-available-evidence-of-what-happened-at-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza
Relevant quote:
Photos from the following day also appear to show little damage to the hospital buildings, and a relatively small blast zone from the explosion. That damage pattern is inconsistent with a large air-dropped bomb, which would leave a crater and create a shockwave that would damage or destroy surrounding structures, says Marc Garlasco, a former targeting officer for the U.S. military who now works for PAX, a Netherlands-based non-profit.
“It’s very clear to me that this is not an airstrike.” Garlasco says. Israeli bombs typically leave craters three to ten meters in size, and are designed to create a large shockwave that propels shrapnel over a large area.
If you look at the photos of the site there’s no crater, no destroyed buildings, just burned cars.
I read this and the first thing I noticed was that they don’t go on to say that the damage is consistent with the kind of rocket that they’re talking about. If the images of the damage can make or break the airstrike hypothesis, isn’t it important to know whether the images support the rocket hypothesis?
The IDF has investigated, and determined that Snowball did it.
We have always been at war with east Asia.
it’s nothing but crickets.
uh, is it?
Bruh Al Jazeera did a convincing investigation that it wasn’t a Hamas rocket and wasn’t clear whether it was Hamas or the IDF. You put disinformation in this literal meme.
Propagandist right here. ^ This one folks.
Sorry I don’t actually know if you are or not, just seems like to cool thing to accuse someone of right now.
I still have yet to see any kind of conclusive evidence in this matter at all. Someone will have to provide literal actual proof. Not “looks like” or “seems like” or “is or isn’t consistent with” but actual proof. Some kind of legitimate eye witness testimony combined with some kind of actual analysis. Otherwise this entire conversation is nonsense between 2 parties known to lie in the midst of quite possibly the largest ever information war ever waged on planet earth. The US lies nearly every time they open their fucking mouths. Israel is openly committing genocide. Hamas are terrorists.
I still dont doubt the IDF would do this. Not for a single second. Fuck the IDF one way or another.
They’ve bombed churches, they’ve bombed retreating lines of evacuees, they’ve bombed homes, they’ve bombed shelters, they’ve already bombed other hospitals, Jesus christ there’s precious little in Gaza they haven’t fucking bombed. And the day before a large conference to negotiate a ceasefire with Egypt Iran and Hamas representatives all in attendance? No way are they getting away hand waving without proving it wasn’t them.
Proof isn’t really a thing. You’ll have to choose a more reasonable level of evidence or be content following your own bias.
I gave an example of what proof would look like in the above comment.
“There are bad people on both sides” is roughly as valid as “there are good people on both sides”. While true, saying things like that hides some essential truths about what the intentions of both sides are.
Yeah, it might have been Hamas, but after all the bombing and specially the “leave Gaza, we are going to bomb it” and then proceeding to bombing the people that listened to that warning, it’s easy to blame Israel.
What do you expect? People have been strongly condemning Hamas in every conceivable way from day one so more strong condemnations are just white nose at this point.
OP: It is not a Palestinian rocket- it is a rocket by the Islamic Jihad
Be better
More disinformation: the full name is Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
Do half a second of research.
Where was it fired from?
A rocket launcher. My god, man.
Lemmy is not a hive mind
Exactly. It’s the individual instances that are hive minds.
All the hexbears have retreated to their cave.
This is posted on lemmy.world. They were never federated with each other.
Yes, as everyone knows lemmy.world was the only instance with threads about the Gaza hospital incident
What should the proposed non-cricket response be? What would it look like?
“I will wait for confirmation from reputable sources”
The original source was literally the Hamas gov, who isnt exactly a reputable source to believe when it comes to reports about attacks on Palestine.
This would be extremely similar to if Putin declared that a hospital in Russia got bombed by Ukraine and everyone just believed that at face value.
Though in this case, “Ukraine” is Isreal who is not nearly as reputable as Ukraine is when it comes to war crimes, so the water is a lot more muddy but not completely obscured.
So who is right?
Many large nations are siding with it being a misfired rocket and Isreal had nothing to do with it. Now that a day and a bit has passed, I will say its safe to side with the numerous countries that all independently are verifying the information.
I have yet to actually see any pictures of any actual dead bodies or serious injuries from this fire. All I have seen so far is just after images of the parking lot scorched and burnt up cars. Not a single corpse.
But I havent been looking to hard for it either, the pics may be around but a LOT of what you see around this topic is disinfo, pictures from other events and whatnot.
People posting all sorts of random shit and saying it was this event, when you can check and find out “nope this picture is from several years ago” and whatnot.
But the images of the aftereffects look extremely non-noteworthy. Couple burnt up cars, scorched pavement, all the buildings nearby perfectly still in tact.
Looks more like a bunch of fuel was burnt up than an explosive was detonated.
It’s not fun. It’s never fun.
